What do you think about burble effect ?

[maxTRX]

Son of a... ,   just had my first exposure to the burble. I'm late to the carrier ops after the latest OB update. I flew 2 case 1 patterns and it seems like I have some work to do, to re-learn flying 'burbled' ball. Unless... ED beets me to it and make it more manageable.

There seems to be a downdraft in-close and I could probably learn how to power through it but this nose-up over the ramp (it seems more like a pivot along lateral axis) followed by a nose down wobble, which brings the hook up and makes alpha lower made me bolter twice in a row.  The ball needs to be centered or tiddly bit up almost all the way to the wires. Well, I'll try...

Thanks for the 'wake turb.' tip UncleReiben. Lets see if that works.

Here's how I got burbled on my first case1:

 

[joker62]

11 hours ago, UncleReiben said:

Did a quick test with Wake Turbulence forced off and the burble doesn't exist (or wasn't noticeable). I guess that makes sense as it would use that model to apply the effect.

Interesting, thanks for tip. I have set wake turbolence off and the effect is much less pronounced, if it exists at all. Wind 12kts, CVN 17kts, turb5, results "OK: LULX _LULIM_ WIRE # 4" (sorry, my bad handling), "_OK_: WIRE # 4", "OK: LOAR WIRE # 3". While waiting for ED tuning burble effect, setting wake turbolence off is good enough for me. Thanks again.

 

[Nealius]

So it is linked to the wake turbulence setting? I would like to see that separated, as the wake turbulence setting causes excessive framerate loss when multiple aircraft are at play.

[Nealius]

Here's what a post-burble-update trap looks like for me. I have "wake turbulence" disabled, and I'm not knowledgeable enough on the burble to understand what I should be seeing/feeling, but so far I can't say that I've noticed anything....which may confirm that the burble is directly toggled on/off by the "wake turbulence" setting?

 

[fagulha]

2 hours ago, Atazar SPN said:

Passed _OK_ : WIRE# 4 accelerating to full throttle and pushing stick forward to compensate for tail drop. Much more difficult now.

 

I use a technique explained by Jell-O from the Fighter Pilot Podcast, when in the burble i cut a little power for a few secs then put back on the same position it was, otherwise if you cut too much power for too long you´ll end setting too much power to compensate when your´re in the burble suck hole. I need to practice more but it worked for me. The only thing needed now is ED fix the nose pitching down at the ramp.

Edited May 8, 2022 by fagulha

[Nealius]

16 minutes ago, fagulha said:

I use a technique explained by Jell-O from the Fighter Pilot Podcast, when in the burble i cut a little power for a few secs then put back on the same position it was

Do you remember which spot relative to the ship you cut power? Looking through my video footage I noticed I subconciously cut power for a split second right as the ramp crosses under the nose (from my viewpoint), then immediately put power back on. I wasn't aware I was doing this and don't know if it's something I developed after the burble's introduction, or if it's something I've always done. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Nealius

[maxTRX]

Finally today I'll have a chance to burble around again and experiment. On my last attempt (right after posting my above vid.) I was able to fly the ball actually and hit the 4 wire and it seems I can do it consistently. 3 wire... sure but it doesn't look right. I have to either overpower, cut and go to MIL way early to hit 3 wire, with the wrong AOA or... jockey the stick a little as described by couple of people here already. Forcing the stick forward at the ramp should be a big nono. I haven't disabled the 'turbulence' yet and will definitely try it tonight.

I wonder if anyone (including RW boat experienced folks) managed to fly a perfect ball through the burble w/o doing 'silly' stuff.

On a different note:  I added one extra item to my pre-landing checklist.  'Home' waypoint on FPAS page goes to #58 (blank) 

[fagulha]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

Do you remember which spot relative to the ship you cut power? Looking through my video footage I noticed I subconciously cut power for a split second right as the ramp crosses under the nose (from my viewpoint), then immediately put power back on. I wasn't aware I was doing this and don't know if it's something I developed after the burble's introduction, or if it's something I've always done. 

 

I use visual cues and i have a JetSeat with SimShaker software to "feel" the turbulence, so in some sort probably it´s easier to me to find/feel the burble, and at that moment i cut power for a few secs, and right above the ramp you have the sink hole. Hard to give an exact location just typing, but, about 100 ft before the ramp maybe? (it´s real closer thani think it should be but i don´t have sources to say it otherwise).

I noticed in a few attempts that it´s easier to deal with the burble, or at least to notice it, if you are in the glidescope with little power adjustments and the moment you hit the burble you´ll see the Ball going up. Definitely it enhances the realism/technique in my landings but the downside for now it´s the nose down at the ramp messes my AoA as i mentioned.

If i could i would take a pic but i only fly in VR and the screenshots aren´t the best.

Edited May 8, 2022 by fagulha

[maxTRX]

UncleReiben's tip works. Disabling wake turb. is definitely an effective temporary fix for the silly nose wobble. The downdraft is fairly easy to deal with now. The upward bump might be a bit tricky but after some practice flying the ball all the way down is becoming a routine. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by oldcrusty

[Stearmandriver]

On 5/2/2022 at 8:56 PM, oldcrusty said:

a downdraft in-close and I could probably learn how to power through it but this nose-up over the ramp (it seems more like a pivot along lateral axis) followed by a nose down wobble

This is exactly what the burble looks like for me.  The downdraft is one thing, but the massive nose-up (into a high AoA warning tone) and subsequent unstable "wobble" doesn't make much sense.  I'll have to try with wake turb off.

[maxTRX]

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

This is exactly what the burble looks like for me.  The downdraft is one thing, but the massive nose-up (into a high AoA warning tone) and subsequent unstable "wobble" doesn't make much sense.  I'll have to try with wake turb off.

You'll notice the difference. I keep the wake turb. off for now. Updraft over the ramp is not too bad but... it took me a few tries before I learned to deal with it. 

Another thing... I don't know if it's my imagination or what, but after the last 2 updates the power response seems a bit sluggish for some reason. Drag?

[maxTRX]

4 hours ago, Atazar SPN said:

Pulling the stick back before track contact has helped me get better grades on my last few recoveries. We must anticipate that several seconds before we are going to lose speed and altitude. However, I haven't seen any real recovery where the pilot pulls back on the stick.

 

 

I don't pay too much attention to DCS LSOs, as far as grading goes, ambiance perhaps.  I try to stick to established ways as much as possible and usually I can spot my mistakes and correct or... chew my own butt 

[fagulha]

On 5/30/2022 at 10:22 AM, Atazar SPN said:

Pulling the stick back before track contact has helped me get better grades on my last few recoveries. We must anticipate that several seconds before we are going to lose speed and altitude. However, I haven't seen any real recovery where the pilot pulls back on the stick.

 

 

Why you blocked the Meatball? how you fly the ball?

Besides that great video. Keep up.

Thanks.

[DD_Fenrir]

Just so people are aware this is a generic diagram of the effect:

Be advised, my understanding of this is that the intensity of this varies depending on a variety of factors in real life; if there is little wind and the carrier is making it's own wind over deck then it tends to be worse as the disturbed air is coming straight back into the glideslope. However, with a good wind component positioned correctly and blowing in from the port side it's less of a factor as the wind carries the effect to a position to the starboard side of the glideslope where its effect is not so marked. 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by DD_Fenrir

[bkthunder]

Quote

However, with a good wind component positioned correctly and blowing in from the port side it's less of a factor as the wind carries the effect to a position to the starboard side of the glideslope where its effect is not so marked. 

 

Wouldn't the carrier always be flying BRC straicht into the wind i.e. there is never a crosswind situation in carrier landings?

[lucky-hendrix]

4 minutes ago, bkthunder said:

Wouldn't the carrier always be flying BRC straicht into the wind i.e. there is never a crosswind situation in carrier landings?

If brc=wind direction then there is always a9° crossing from the right 

[bkthunder]

10 minutes ago, lucky-hendrix said:

If brc=wind direction then there is always a9° crossing from the right 

Yes, correct, and that's how it should be in all situations a sfar as I understand. My point form the preious post still stands though.

Edited June 11, 2022 by bkthunder

[DD_Fenrir]

Where possible for the landing evolution my understanding is they’ll place the wind slightly on the port quarter so the nett wind over deck ends up straight down the angle.
 

Simplified Example: 15 knot wind from due north, carrier wants to make 30 knots; they steer 018 degrees and steam at 15 knots - the nett then would be at 009 degrees at (slightly less than) 30 knots. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by DD_Fenrir

[MARLAN_]

6 minutes ago, Atazar SPN said:

Thanks. Following the piecemeal approach, on the final piece I must intercept the trail 1.5 miles between 600 and 500 feet. From that moment on I just have to maintain attitude, heading and speed until I land.

Just an FYI, 3/4 NM is only for CASE III, in CASE I it's a 15-18 second groove with time starting when you are level wings (generally within ~10 degrees) or when you cross centerline. This is important for things such as angled approaches, or long in groove.

[fagulha]

45 minutes ago, Atazar SPN said:

Thanks. Following the piecemeal approach, on the final piece I must intercept the trail 1.5 miles between 600 and 500 feet. From that moment on I just have to maintain attitude, heading and speed until I land.

You shouldn´t be looking to speed or altitude.

The only things you need to scan until you land is Meatball, AoA, and Glidscope, nothing more. That´s why i asked why you blocked the IFLOLS.

[fagulha]

5 hours ago, Atazar SPN said:

Well, when I say attitude, I mean the set of all prompts and AoA of course. It's purely visual, or intuitive, as you prefer. I know if I entered 500ft, I'm on course, (AoA), velocity vector and angle of attack is correct, I'm on glideslope.

I never let the waterline symbol go up or down from its 5 degree position too long, except to correct, if visually or by velocity vector position I see that I am high, low, fast or slow.

I got used to doing it this way from the beginning and maybe it's not done well, but I never liked the extra symbology in a popup.

 

You can disable the IFLOLS pop-up window.

I never used it anyway, even when was not possible to disable in DCS options i used a little mod to disable it. I was talking about the physical Meatball blocked by the F-18´s in the boat not about the Meatball Pop-Up window.

The meatball will guide you to touchdown, but hey, do whatever works for you because in the end it´s the one thing that matters.

 

Keep up.

F.

[fagulha]

33 minutes ago, Atazar SPN said:

OK now I understand. You mean the platform configuration with stationary units covering the ball's vision. You are right, it is not the best configuration for an aircraft carrier

Hey no worries  i was just trying to understand and to be helpful in some sort.

[Airbusjoerg]

Sorry, I'm a little late to the burble party. Just again for me to confirm:

The burble effect in combination with the flight model of the Hornet is unrealistic, isnt it?
At least it should not be necessary to make wild changes in the pitch just before (or above) the deck to prevent the permanent 3PTS landings (and the C-gradings)?

The way I learned and understood it is that the AoA is fixed during landing, I only control the sink rate with thrust and the stick is only used for lateral movements. I got along great with that before the burble effect. Now the burble effect throws me out of the correct AoA every time shortly before the touchdown, the nose lifts up right above the deck and falls down again and I could only correct this by courageous interventions on the stick - which is a big no-no for my understanding. That's not realistic, is it?

And did I understand correctly that this pitch-down is due to the Hornet's flight model, which may be improved again in the future?

 

PS: just did a _OK_ pass, but had to pull the stick quite a bit in the very last moments, almost like flare out... this feels so wrong...

Edited August 29, 2022 by Airbusjoerg

[GumidekCZ]

The Burble Effect is WRONG - my comment to it in link bellow:

 

[Grodin]

I've also noticed that i have to pull back on the stick quite hard just before catching a wire or i'll get a bolter because of the pitching down effect i'm getting near the deck. Didn't have this before burble. No guarantees i'm doing it right, just an observation.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Grodin