Trimming the Ka-50

[Coffin]

So I can make turns now. AP-Heading on, turning with trimming...

But hitting something with unguided missiles or wingmounted unguided guns .. That's still way beyond me.

Is that realistic helicopter-unstability ?

Looked at Youtube's HUD-video of the KA50 but that looked a bit more stable to me.

 

Might be Cougar with FCC mod that makes it harder though. No tactile feedback really.

[ericinexile]

Normal Trimming vs FD Trimming

 

(Sorry but 41 pages is too much to scan for an answer...)

 

Why, at least with me, does trim and release result in a pitch beyond that which was commanded while the same technique with the FD on is always smooth?

 

Example: Level Flight accelerating forward, trim and release to maintain slight nose down attitude. At Trim/Stick release, nose down attitude increases further. (This only occurs with a single trim tap. Holding the trim to a stable attitude before release works fine.)

 

Smokin' Hole

[Wags]

[Ramstein]

Here is a link

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=36364&page=3

to my experience so far with the software and script... and I need more help.. please.. :helpsmilie:

 

thanx..

 

==========

Could those tha thave tried Reticuli's Solution andscripts let me/us know if it is an improvement and if so how much? I still have not yet tried it.. kinda scared of messing something up..

 

Thanx,

:joystick:

[Bisch]

After reading so many tutorials, FAQs and watching the producers note, we (3 buddies) are still messing around with trimming.

As far as I got you need to use trim function on a FFB stick in another way than without (should be mentioned in prod. note :police: )

I took the automatic return to center forces from MS FFB2 settings and now it works the way it should I guess. However, trimming doesn't work that good that I use it..... I fly completley without trimming. Is it really a problem?

 

However.... my peddals aren't FFB controllers of course and it looks like I need to use them like non-ffb-sticks should be used:

 

Press T - release rudder pedals - Release T ... this all while trying to keep my FFB2 in position although you suddenly lose FFB resistance.

This should apply to all people who use an FFB stick as most of them wont have FFB on the rudder axis I guess.

 

So.... should I really do it the way I described or am I wrong. Perhaps I forgot something important....

[lion737]

After reading so many tutorials, FAQs and watching the producers note, we (3 buddies) are still messing around with trimming.

As far as I got you need to use trim function on a FFB stick in another way than without (should be mentioned in prod. note :police: )

I took the automatic return to center forces from MS FFB2 settings and now it works the way it should I guess. However, trimming doesn't work that good that I use it..... I fly completley without trimming. Is it really a problem?

 

However.... my peddals aren't FFB controllers of course and it looks like I need to use them like non-ffb-sticks should be used:

 

Press T - release rudder pedals - Release T ... this all while trying to keep my FFB2 in position although you suddenly lose FFB resistance.

This should apply to all people who use an FFB stick as most of them wont have FFB on the rudder axis I guess.

 

So.... should I really do it the way I described or am I wrong. Perhaps I forgot something important....

 

You are exactly right. And that is what drives me nuts. There must be the same logic at the stick AND the rudder ! So if i am using a FFB stick,

i could use the trim as designed in the real chopper. But ONLY if i dont have to center the rudder pedals. I just dont understand why they dont

provide that easy function: enable/disable rudder trim.

 

I fly without trim now as well. But i am still hoping that they fix that soon.

[Albatros]

Confirmed. When using the MSFF2 it is a bit tricky with rudder centering.

 

Didn't read the hole thread, so I don't know if it's mentioned before. But my suggestion for trim function is that after release of the trim button and the short waiting time for re - position the software should not assume that you set to center. Instead it should assume that the given displacement of the stick after the short waiting time should be the new center. When it is like this, centering the stick would work like up to now, but leaving the stick (or rudder) in a certain position would also work without unwanted moves. The problem with rudder and MSFF2 would be eliminated - because you can center, but you don't have to. Maybe there is some fault in my logic here, but I can't see any.

 

Greetings

 

Albatros

[lion737]

I have two systems running: one with the MS FFB2 and CH Rudder and

the other with MS FFB2 and the throttle of the X45. There i am using only the rudder at the throttle (operated with two fingers).

 

At the second system, the rudder trim function is working perfect. That´s

because i have a strong centering force and wouldn´t like to hold the

rudder with the finger.

 

But at the first system, operating the rudder with the legs without centering force, the rudder trim is absolutely annoying. Three quick clicks to get the cyclic centered perfectly and the rudder shows full input, because you can´t get the rudder centered as you should.

 

Conclusion: There is only one way to get it right on EVERY system:

we need the option for the rudder.

[Bisch]

Pfew... thank god I don't seem to be as dumb as I feared first.

Same problem for others.

 

Well, I also can chose between MS FFB2 + Rudder Pedals or MS FFB2 and Saitek Rudder Throttle (X35T aka X36 here).

However, even if Id release the axis throttle when pressing T I don't think I would be enough to quickly press only. Id need half a second or more I guess.

 

I already have problems to trim the MS FFB2.

When pressing quickly it seems like I slightly move the stick even farther to the respective direction because of the sudden loss of the opposing FFB-force resulting in some kind of "over-trim"

Perhaps I should use the MS FFB2 with forces to center because it doesn't feel intuitive to have the center far from phyiscall center. It's difficult to predict the right amount of steering if you are already starting to steer near a corner. But without sidewinder software I don't know how to get those forces back on Windows 64 bit Beta.

 

As I only noticed little advantages from trimming (although most guides claim it to be mantadory and used permantley; perhaps I ll discover more of them in the future) while having massive problems with them (at least me) I won't use it until I find really good hints or the general re-design of this feature

[lion737]

I think the trim with the MS FFB2 would work great, if there wasn´t the rudder

trim: you could click much more, because you don´t need

to care about any centering. Therefore you never get this strong forces at the

cyclic (...and the effect you have been talking about - BTW have you set the force to 50% ?).

 

You can test this like that: don´t use the rudder at all (...ok, that´s terrible

uncoordinated flying :cry:) - now you can use the cyclic trim at it is indended !! You are right,

if you are flying very fast, it is way out of center, but that is real. And I think

you could get used to it very quickly. But first they have to fix that rudder :helpsmilie:

(the rudder trim, the way it is programmed, is BTW absolutely unrealistic: they would loose

all their K50´s before reaching the battle zone in real life :lol: : three trim clicks at full speed and

you have full rudder and that´s it)

 

Until then you could set the force to zero (or very small force). So you dont need the trim at all.

That´s IMO better than with centering force (what would be unrealistic in a chopper).

Edited February 19, 2009 by lion737

[Albatros]

Until then you could set the force to zero (or very small force). So you dont need the trim at all. That´s IMO better than with centering force (what would be unrealistic in a chopper).

 

Yes, but I understand, then you will get no new heading - reference for the AFCS and this way auto rudder input will always tend to maintain the original heading?

[lion737]

Yes, but I understand, then you will get no new heading - reference for the AFCS and this way auto rudder input will always tend to maintain the original heading?

 

That is the big problem, you are right ! Therefore I fly without heading

stabilization whenever possible. But if i need it and have to use the trim

therefore, i do the following after every trim :

 

1. switch on control indication

2. try to center rudder indication

3. click trim

4. center rudder

5. check rudder indication neutral

6. switch off control indication

 

That has nothing to do with real flying. It´s fighting with the program :mad:

But if you don´t do that procedure, you will loose control sooner or later,

because you inadvertantly trim the rudder to full input. Or you have the

control indication ON all the time and check the rudder input all the time.

 

IMO the best way to solve that would be a different trim command for the

rudder trim (with the option to combine both). But at least the option to

disable rudder trim is necessary.

Edited February 20, 2009 by lion737

[lion737]

What i don't like is the rudder trim, everytime I change heading and trim to update the heading, I have to center the rudder and trim it again. I know its realistic, but with twist rudder on joystick it's hard to center the rudder :music_whistling: So either reset rudder trim button, or option to disable rudder trim would really help.

 

Sorry, that´s not correct. It is not realistic that you have to center the rudder

pedals after trimming. As there are no FFB pedals, there is no way to make it

absolutely real. But the way it is done now, is unpracticable. Better no rudder trim at all than such a mess.

 

PS: it is easier to center the rudder with your twist rudder than with pedals with little centering force.

Edited February 20, 2009 by lion737

[Bisch]

trim: you could click much more, because you don´t need

to care about any centering.

 

You mean I should use trim more often and things will get better?

So far I found the more often I used trim, the worse it gets - until I press trim reset again. I guess I don't get you right.

 

Therefore you never get this strong forces at the

cyclic (...and the effect you have been talking about - BTW have you set the force to 50% ?).

 

You talk FFB in the Black Shark Option? I ll give it a try!

(can't reduce it in windows - don't have a sidewinder software for Win 7)

 

if you are flying very fast, it is way out of center, but that is real. And I think

you could get used to it very quickly.

 

really? the uncommon stick position feels really uncomfortable and beside that my brain does not accept the fact, that the center is somewhere else I guess. But If you say it's just a matter of time? ...

Perhaps Id get used to the non-ffb based trim system faster?

 

Until then you could set the force to zero (or very small force). So you dont need the trim at all.

 

I dont get that either. Doesn't seem to be my day.

You speak of FFB setting for the MS FFB2 itself. The settings in BS to be even more precise? Still don't see the advantage of it.

Why don't I need trim when playing without FFB?

 

Sorry for being so stupid... at least I feel like right now

[lion737]

You mean I should use trim more often and things will get better?

So far I found the more often I used trim, the worse it gets - until I press trim reset again. I guess I don't get you right.

 

If you have a non FFB joystick, you have to center the stick after every trim. Although it is easier to do than with the rudder pedals, it is unnatural.

With your FFB stick you dont have to think about anything. You click and the force is removed. You don´t change the ´input´. So you could click 3 times a second - nothing could go wrong.

 

About the setup:

you can´t set anything within windows. In BS controls set: check swap axis, and set the force to around 50%. If the force is set to 100% you will move the stick unintended when clicking the trim (too much change in force moves your hand).

 

And again: the problem at the moment is the rudder when trimming. Therefore it´s getting worse the more often you trim (rudder input is moving

to full extend very quickly unintended). Try not to touch the rudder when trimming. (i can´t do that because i dont feel the center)

 

 

really? the uncommon stick position feels really uncomfortable and beside that my brain does not accept the fact, that the center is somewhere else I guess. But If you say it's just a matter of time? ...

 

really :thumbup:

 

Perhaps Id get used to the non-ffb based trim system faster?

NO !!!...for sure. I started with the non-ffb sidewinder. It was no fun at all. The MS FFB2 is just outstanding for that sim.

 

Why don't I need trim when playing without FFB?

 

If you set the force to zero (within BS !) you dont need the trim (as you dont need to remove force). But you have to get used to fly without any

force. It is therefore not a good solution. But if the rudder trim drives you crazy, try it :D

 

There is another function of the trim: telling the autopilot about your intended heading. But as long as you fly without heading stabilization you

dont need that as well.

[Bisch]

Thanks a lot Lion for your detailed answer!

 

I only was able to test your proposals very quickly but I ll

test it again today.

 

If you have a non FFB joystick, you have to center the stick after every trim. Although it is easier to do than with the rudder pedals, it is unnatural.

 

Yes, I know that (just to give you an idea what I know and what obviously not)

 

With your FFB stick you dont have to think about anything. You click and the force is removed. You don´t change the ´input´. So you could click 3 times a second - nothing could go wrong.

 

Nothing? Well when I use trim although during Im not in a stable flight, my copter will drift around, won't he?

 

 

I tried to do the following yesterday:

Reduced FFB in BS settings to 50%. I think this was a good hint. Should be the right way to go.

Took off, pitched forward to gain speed and lined up with the horizon as good as possible without the use of the rudder.

Then I clicked trim, the reduced FFB disappears for a split second (stick falls 1-2mm in the direction I did steered the joystick handle towards) and when I relase trim and then the stick itself, the heli does not fly forwards. He goes up and quite strong to the right (stick was pressed slightly to the left before trimming). Isn't he supposed to fly fowards and at least roughly straight ahead?

 

But this doesn't happen.... he tries to some kind of bank/roll/yaw to the right, so I start steering left again. Pressing trim again doesn't solve it. I just can try to steer less left than necessary short before the trim, so that the input isn't trimmed so much to the right. This can't be the way it should be like.

 

About the setup:

you can´t set anything within windows. In BS controls set: check swap axis, and set the force to around 50%. If the force is set to 100% you will move the stick unintended when clicking the trim (too much change in force moves your hand).

 

Unintented movement is one of the problems I was thinking about before. That's why I really understand your point here. Reduced it to 50%.

Didn't get why I should swap axis though... I thought swapping axis is for changing/correcting the +/- direction (like throttle axis as collective)

 

And again: the problem at the moment is the rudder when trimming. Therefore it´s getting worse the more often you trim (rudder input is moving

to full extend very quickly unintended). Try not to touch the rudder when trimming. (i can´t do that because i dont feel the center)

 

According to your avice I didn't use it yesterday but trimming was frustrating like always. One thing that comes to mind is, that I could set up a (bigger) deadzone to my rudder. Maybe there's already a standby input in idle position of the hardware.

 

I played tons of sims, action games, strategy games, tactics games in the last three decades but I think I never felt so uncomprehending like when it comes to the trimming topic in BS.

 

Perhaps it hat something to do with, that Im still not fully aware of all those heading hold, turn to target and other autopilot features.

I guess I should (again) have a look into those topics?

 

On the other hand: Two friends of mine have the same problems and one of them is working on planes in real life and flys RC helicopters

 

really :thumbup:

 

I trust you and I am committed.... so I ll keep on trying

 

NO !!!...for sure. I started with the non-ffb sidewinder. It was no fun at all. The MS FFB2 is just outstanding for that sim.

 

Good to hear :)

We put a lot of heartblood into our merged stick ^^

[Etsija]

Phew. I read through all 42 pages of this discussion, and can't thank you guys enough of the deep knowledge hidden in it. It seems my understanding of the BS trim system, both in real life and in the sim, got way better. As a result, and with lots of practise, my flying has also improved a lot.

 

It seems that the rudder trim discussion also solved one of the mysteries I've had: the sudden situation (usually when I'm busy in combat) of rudder being trimmed to its end, which lead to crazy things happening, even crashes. Nowadays I trim rudder to neutral (with CTRL-ENTER) every chance I get - but that of course is not the way we should be forced to do!

 

I believe the consensus in this thread is that the rudder trim should definitely be made as an option in the game. So my question is: how could we affect the DCS guys such that they will implement this (easy option!) in the patch that I hope will be coming?

 

EDIT: excuse me for my ignorance, I just noticed that there is a patch 1.0.1 discussion, where the issue is being discussed...

Edited March 5, 2009 by Etsija

[Bisch]

. Nowadays I trim rudder to neutral (with CTRL-ENTER) every chance I get - but that of course is not the way we should be forced to do!

 

CTRL-ENTER is also some kind of trim reset? And especially for the rudder?

Sounds very interessting - I could map it additionally to the trim button in the profile software, so rudder should never be trimed?

[nemises]

no, ctrl-enter bring's up a visual chart showing where the controls are currently set, which means yoiu can tell where they are trimmed, and manually re-trim to center....so what he means is, he checks the ctrl-enter overlay to tell if his rudders are trimmmed off or not, and then re-center's and re-trim's to neutral.

I also use the method to check and re-trim to neutral

[sohei]

I read somewhere that BS pilots trim the controls for about every 25 knots of airspeed change, so the sim is probably pretty accurate.

[LupinYonder]

Quick question, forgive me for not reading 42 pages of trim discussion:-/

When holding down the trim butting say during a turn ( to negate the undesired effects of heading trim on rudder ) are the auto pilot systems turned off temporarily and then re-engage when you lift off the trim button?

[ZaltysZ]

Quick question, forgive me for not reading 42 pages of trim discussion:-/

When holding down the trim butting say during a turn ( to negate the undesired effects of heading trim on rudder ) are the auto pilot systems turned off temporarily and then re-engage when you lift off the trim button?

 

Yes. The stabilization system is turned off when trim button is held pressed, however dampening still works. Stabilization kicks back in when you release trim button.

[MerlinCH65]

Trimming with FF and other questions

 

Dear Friends

 

I just bought the Saitek Evo Force stick - before I had a non-ff stick. FF works when I test in the gamecontroller settings. So far, so good (I almost knocked my self with the stick while testing :megalol:)...

 

Also I have to say that I am a complete noob when it comes to ff - please be kind when answering my stupid questions:

 

1) Question

 

How do I trim with a non-ff stick? I know how to do it with non-ff and IT WORKS! I can fly (yipeeayeh :thumbup:)

 

But when I trim with the new stick, it won't work. After reading up the forums I have set the center-spring to 0% and another setting to 38% (can't remember what) and the rest stays on 100%. When I trim, the stick does not stay where it it should be - it pops back to center and thus the helo pitches up. What am I doing wrong?

 

2) Question

 

Do I have to do something in order to have ff work? I checked the producer.cfg and there it is set to true. But I don't know which action in the game should give me a "rumble". Yet I have not had any rumble at all :cry:... Also the stick itself is very "whobbly" (can't really explain) while I fly. I feel nothing that is like ff at all when I push the stick forth/back/left/right (should I feel anything here).

 

I also have to say that I haven't changed anything in the game settings regarding ff. I have seen that button in the control setting panel (bottom right FF Settings...) I did not touch that one. I assumed that "it would work by itself". Am I wrong here?

 

Again - I'm very annoyed to ask those stupid questions but alas - I am new in the world of ff...

 

Thank you ever so much for your kind replys!

 

Cheers,

 

Merlin

[Sharkster64]

I don't have a force feed back stick myself, but I have fiddled enough with the game settings to know that you have to enable it in the options menu on the game settings. Go to axis controls and enable FF to each axis. Give that a try.

[MerlinCH65]

Hi Sharkster64

 

Almost of the same age, huh :-)??

 

Thanks for your kind reply! I went to the game settings and found the 4 lines that represent "Up/Down/Left/Right" and clicked on FF Setting-Button. There is a little pop-up coming with two boxes (one with 100, one with 50) and a little check-box "Invert". I'm translating here from german, so I might be unprecise. Di you mean this? Or did you mean the Axis-Button? This one is present as well but seems to be "dead" all the time. God I'm really lost here :-))

 

edit: This is a problem because now with that ff-stick I can't trim anymore (with my old non-ff-stick I could perfectly trim - I used to hit "T", then let go the stick quickly and all was OK). I tried the same procedure with my ff-stick but whatever I do - it does not trim and thus when I release the chopper pitches way back up...

 

Thanks for any help!

 

Cheers

MerlinCH65

Edited March 30, 2009 by MerlinCH65