Disable autostart sequence in a mission

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

I guess I won't tell you the things I've done in other flight sims then.  

In other flight sims people just gun the engine from the ramp and take off straight across the runway

[Sandman1330]

53 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I get that. I’m just pointing out the difference this makes in the gameplay style online. On the hot start server the mission designer had to put up concrete barriers on the taxiways to keep people from using them as runways. And every time I’m on there I see planes exploding from trying to do that

That's fair. I'm just trying to dissuade the attitude that anyone who hot / auto starts somehow isn't a serious DCS player, or is less skilled than someone who can cold start from memory. This is a case of "correlation doesn't imply causation." For some of us, cold starting is boring - every RL pilot I know who plays DCS skips the start!

Cold starts may be effective in discouraging the taxiway takeoff type individual from joining that server, true. But as others have said, disabling auto starts wouldn't significantly improve that situation, as those players are probably already dissuaded due to the time necessary on a cold / auto start. It might also dissuade perfectly legitimate folks from joining too. I'm afraid the only real motivation for disabling auto starts is to further propagate the elitist attitude that one must cold start in order to be a serious player.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Sandman1330

[Gideon312]

And you can always have a MOOSE script running which prevents people taking off from taxiways and / or speeding during taxi.

[Elf1606688794]

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

In other flight sims people just gun the engine from the ramp and take off straight across the runway

Well...

I've belly landed into hangers while enemy AAA vehicles were on the airfield and got away with it.

I belly landed a Hurricane just as an La-7 (that I had shot down repeatedly that flight) crashed behind me while trying to vulch me landing. That one was hilarious, he was looking for some payback and gave me a proximity kill instead. Dev's fixed the belly landing issue, jerks.

I've "gunned my engine" and taken off in whatever direction I was facing...

I've used taxiways as runways and taken off directly from hangers I spawned in.

I've killed AAA guns on airfields just so I could kill players as they spawned...

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

Well...

I've belly landed into hangers while enemy AAA vehicles were on the airfield and got away with it.

I belly landed a Hurricane just as an La-7 (that I had shot down repeatedly that flight) crashed behind me while trying to vulch me landing. That one was hilarious, he was looking for some payback and gave me a proximity kill instead. Dev's fixed the belly landing issue, jerks.

I've "gunned my engine" and taken off in whatever direction I was facing...

I've used taxiways as runways and taken off directly from hangers I spawned in.

I've killed AAA guns on airfields just so I could kill players as they spawned...

And if that sort of stuff is ok on that sever. Fine. But I find it odd that people would want that sort of action in DCS

26 minutes ago, Sandman1330 said:

This is a case of "correlation doesn't imply causation."

Well server rules like any other rules are all written for the lowest common denominator. You’ll get what the rules permit.

27 minutes ago, Sandman1330 said:

I'm just trying to dissuade the attitude that anyone who hot / auto starts somehow isn't a serious DCS player, or is less skilled than someone who can cold start from memory.

Not necessarily implying that, again it just effects what you end up with as a gameplay style. I like shoot ‘em up occasionally too. 

[Elf1606688794]

25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

 But I find it odd that people would want that sort of action in DCS.

Why?

In my experience many people call games like AirWarrior or Aces High sims when they aren't sims at all, they're games. DCS is a simulator and so is MSFS but how many others are actually sims and not games?

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Elf1606688794

[SharpeXB]

41 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

Why?

In my experience many people call games like AirWarrior or Aces High sims when they aren't sims at all, they're games. DCS is a simulator and so is MSFS but how many others are actually sims and not games?

I dunno… watch all the players crashing into each other on the airfield and go figure. If you even made people pause to run some sort of start it would calm things down a bit. I don’t get why anyone can’t wait the minute or so it takes to taxi. Even the full start doesn’t take that long. 
 

The thing about the hot or auto start is it doesn’t work very well and messes with your flow. There are things it forgets to do so you just end up with another checklist of your own. The Hornet hot/auto start also releases the parking brake with predicable consequences on a crowded deck to ramp. 

Once you become practiced in this it makes no difference as you become a human auto-start script and you can do a better faster job of it.

If there was a way to enforce this in the game that would be great but there probably isn’t. 

Look at the carnage on the hot-start airfield 

Edited September 1, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Elf1606688794]

I think there are probably a couple of reasons why.

People have busy lives and just want to get to the action.

One real live pilot said in this thread that he doesn't want to feel like he is still at work so he uses the auto-start and hot start features.

Some folks want to learn multiple planes and when so many of them are study sims why not cut out the parts that aren't absolutely necessary like startup and shutdown?

Personally, I'd like to learn the F-14 and the F-4E (when it gets here) completely but I'd also like to fly other aircraft as well which means I'm probably not going to be able to commit all of that stuff to memory so I have choices to make concerning how I'm going to accomplish that.

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

People have busy lives and just want to get to the action.

Sure, there are times when I want fast action too. But it’s about giving servers more tools to control the gameplay. 
I’m still puzzled about the taxiway takeoffs because it only takes an extra minute or so to use the runway. 

[Elf1606688794]

25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure, there are times when I want fast action too. But it’s about giving servers more tools to control the gameplay. 
I’m still puzzled about the taxiway takeoffs because it only takes an extra minute or so to use the runway. 

I suspect that is just impatience.

Folks have mentioned scripts to stop rogue players from causing the kind of mayhem I've caused in other games. If you don't have a lot of knowledge when it comes to scripting ( I don't have any knowledge in that area) I'm sure there are folks here that can help you out.

Best of luck with this my friend.

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

I suspect that is just impatience.

Impatience in combat will get you killed. Oh I get it that live die repeat is fun… what’s also fun and more challenging in a sim is to make it realistic by trying to survive. Try a MP flight where your goal is to make it back in one piece. Only then do any real tactics make sense at all. Servers can encourage this through limited lives, points earned etc. 

[Mars Exulte]

This just occurred to me.

In real life, no one, and I mean no one, makes things harder and more complicated than necessary. Auto prop, auto fuel mixture, auto radiator, auto oil cooler, ground crew doing most the start up/prep for you, these are all real world things people did to make things as simple as possible.

Hell, by the 1950s the most complicated thing a fighter pilot had to deal with was his radio and gunsight (based on the saber). No torque, no engine settings to manipulate, nothing. Just barebones. Didn't last long because of radar and avionics, but nobody tacked a bunch of useless drivel on just because.

Then we've got some desk jockey puffing away on his inhaler ranting about how you couldn't hack it as a real pilot and he could because he knows how to RP a BIT test. It's just so stupid =D

[Mars Exulte]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m still puzzled about the taxiway takeoffs because it only takes an extra minute or so to use the runway. 

  This would be a combination of impatience and reality vs video game clashing. The first is obvious, the second is in real world there are weight and construction grade restrictions that simply aren't present in DCS (hard vs soft pavement in other words) plus real world bases are much more crowded and active than the typical DCS server airfield (ie safety). It is dumb, but like most things vidyagame related, there are some aspects that just don't carry over from RL to VR.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Impatience in combat will get you killed.

  This isn't combat. It's a videogame. 99% of people don't care if they get killed  because it doesn't matter. Even the hardcore ones. Pretending otherwise is literally RP, and it's that simple.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Oh I get it that live die repeat is fun… what’s also fun and more challenging in a sim is to make it realistic by trying to survive.

  This is called ''joining a clan''. Open join/leave servers are, by definition, aimed at casual players who typically are not available for a multihour sortie. If they had that kind of spare time and serious approach, they would typically join a clan..because that's what you do.

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Try a MP flight where your goal is to make it back in one piece. Only then do any real tactics make sense at all.

You can. Many people will not. If you haven't noticed, even in real world conflicts, not everyone is super professional and tacticool. Certain militaries doctrinally rely on more or less an uncoordinated zerg rush of barely organised imbeciles (looks meaningfully at Russia).

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Servers can encourage this through limited lives, points earned etc. 

  Servers can make playing on their server a pain in the ass. They cannot meaningfully influence player behavior. Source, myself, and years of experience playing online. People behave in the exact same fashion in every game I've ever played, on every server, regardless of how relaxed or severe 'consequences' were.

 

If you want tight, restrictive gameplay, that is perfectly fine (I lean towards that myself, and am frequently frustrated with people's online bs). But that's what clans are for, so you can join likeminded people enmasse who all want approximately the same thing. This is largely self policing, in other words, and oriented around mentality. You literally cannot legislate people to play the game your way on an open server. It's literally not possible, because most of them will not give a <profanity> about your gamey ''influences'' and will do whatever they want anyway.

 

Because it's a video game, and they unsurprisingly don't care.

[cfrag]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But I find it odd that people would want that sort of action in DCS

Which word in “game” don’t you understand? 

[SharpeXB]

59 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Which word in “game” don’t you understand? 

I get it. In MP it’s about what kind of game you want. Servers should have options to control that. But I realize this one is pretty much a lost cause. 

[MadKreator]

Been playin dcs for several years now. Ive never learned how to start anything but the p-51… yes I autostart everything, why, because I just have no interest in it. To each his own of course and I would support the option for peoples servers to have it disabled, It would be their choice and there’s nothing wrong with that. I have 3-5 aircraft which I switch through flying all the time. Its enough work for me to remember how to fly them and use the systems LOL  For some, I’m sure, doing the start procedure is the only way to go, definitely adds that one more level of immersion. For me, I only have so much time on my hands so saving a couple minutes( choosing targets, making a flight plan etc while auto start is running) is, i suppose, invaluable. I want to get in the air and on my way as quick as I can. Ironically though, I do prefer cold start over hot started aircraft.  If I came across a server that had auto start disabled, I simply would move on to a different one.  Unless of course it was, hands down the biggest, baddest, most action packed server that ever existed, where you would be dumb NOT to play on it

[Mars Exulte]

3 hours ago, MadKreator said:

If I came across a server that had auto start disabled, I simply would move on to a different one. 

  You wouldn't even have to do that. I usually can memorise the "official" startup procedure in about 30 minutes and a half dozen test runs (depending on aircraft complexity), it really isn't that hard. Once you figure out how to do it in general, then you can figure out which parts can be rushed/skipped/done simultaneously (like starting GPS alignment ASAP so you're not wasting time while doing other stuff). Usually, another 30 minutes or so. Then you create a macro so, at a push of a button, this "ideal/streamlined" sequence, which you jotted down on a napkin, auto executes. This is the worst case scenario where you absolutely don't know how to start a plane at all, typically you'd be flying your current interest, so you'd probably already know how to do all this, and could skip straight to step 3.

[MadKreator]

2 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

  You wouldn't even have to do that. I usually can memorise the "official" startup procedure in about 30 minutes and a half dozen test runs (depending on aircraft complexity), it really isn't that hard. Once you figure out how to do it in general, then you can figure out which parts can be rushed/skipped/done simultaneously (like starting GPS alignment ASAP so you're not wasting time while doing other stuff). Usually, another 30 minutes or so. Then you create a macro so, at a push of a button, this "ideal/streamlined" sequence, which you jotted down on a napkin, auto executes. This is the worst case scenario where you absolutely don't know how to start a plane at all, typically you'd be flying your current interest, so you'd probably already know how to do all this, and could skip straight to step 3.

I’m definitely not opposed to learning the procedures. I’ve had a couple of times where i wishI knew how to restart an a10 engine in the air, or at least try lol Ive seen quite a few people say you actually get faster that auto start, just like you mentioned since there are several l things you can do simultaneously that auto may just do step by step. I’m sure there’s things you van avoid too like cycling the fuel probe. I will admit that in the harrier the auto-start sequence is almost agonizing as it basically makes sure everything is shutoff first, and starts some things, runs a bunch of tests before it actually starts, starting-up.. one other note is autostart does force a full ins alignment. I know the a-10 at least you can do a partial and cut a few minutes time off.. although I’m really not sure how a partial would affect the plane compared to a full. Benefits and drawbacks of both ways I suppose.

[Dangerzone]

12 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

In other flight sims people just gun the engine from the ramp and take off straight across the runway

LOL - I'm sure we have that in DCS too. A hotstart server can also catch out a cold start player - join in and next minute... whoosh. Oh - haven't got the throttle back - that's normally done as part of the start up procedure, but too late now, I'm in a tree. 

I've been gaming for longer than I'd like to admit. The best servers I have ever played on (my opinion) and/or being involved in are the ones with clear rules, and a no-tolerance attitude.  Servers I play on we don't have problems with Blue on Blue, taxiway, etc. Why? - because the rules are clear and anyone deliberately disobeying them gets an instant ban. There's room for grace if they get on discord/forums/whatever and apologise or make their case- but just having decent admin seems to limit fairly well the annoying players and ends up attracting the serious ones by default. 

Airquake communities will attract each other. Serious communities attract each other. It kind of naturally happens - provided there are enough admin's around, etc. 

A feature I'd like to see is the DCS server having the ability to allocate additional accounts to connect in so that the server admin doesn't have to share their account details (which may be against the T&C's) so multiple admin's can be active. Yes - there are 3rd party plugins that allow you to kick/ban from Discord which is handy - but some additional multi-admin features would be neat - especially if it could be done 'in game' by authorised players natively. 

[MadKreator]

On 9/1/2022 at 9:35 PM, Mars Exulte said:

  You wouldn't even have to do that. I usually can memorise the "official" startup procedure in about 30 minutes and a half dozen test runs (depending on aircraft complexity), it really isn't that hard. Once you figure out how to do it in general, then you can figure out which parts can be rushed/skipped/done simultaneously (like starting GPS alignment ASAP so you're not wasting time while doing other stuff). Usually, another 30 minutes or so. Then you create a macro so, at a push of a button, this "ideal/streamlined" sequence, which you jotted down on a napkin, auto executes. This is the worst case scenario where you absolutely don't know how to start a plane at all, typically you'd be flying your current interest, so you'd probably already know how to do all this, and could skip straight to step 3.

So for the hell of it last night I figured I’d learn the a-10 startup… well, that was about as easy as it gets lol  took all of three attempts to memorize  the things that need done, using a knee board checklist for reference. I can have most everything on and running before a  fast ins alignment is done. As soon as the right engine is fully running and engine start light goes off, there’s only 5 more switches or so to switch and its ready to go. Of course startup still cuts into my planning/ load out time.. but it really is easy and actually a little bit fun

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, MadKreator said:

So for the hell of it last night I figured I’d learn the a-10 startup… well, that was about as easy as it gets lol  took all of three attempts to memorize  the things that need done, using a knee board checklist for reference. I can have most everything on and running before a  fast ins alignment is done. As soon as the right engine is fully running and engine start light goes off, there’s only 5 more switches or so to switch and its ready to go. Of course startup still cuts into my planning/ load out time.. but it really is easy and actually a little bit fun

It should honestly be even easier, as all modules should come with checklists for start up by default. Even experienced pilots with thousands of hours use a checklist. Thankfully we have modders that have probably made a dl'able checklist for every module.

[silverdevil]

On 9/1/2022 at 2:59 PM, SharpeXB said:

I’m still puzzled about the taxiway takeoffs

"my bad. throttle stuck"

[MadKreator]

5 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

It should honestly be even easier, as all modules should come with checklists for start up by default. Even experienced pilots with thousands of hours use a checklist. Thankfully we have modders that have probably made a dl'able checklist for every module.

Half of my problem with speed was my track ir lateral movement is set too low so i can’t lean far enough to see all of the switches around the throttle and radio, ils and tacan controls lol I just had someone’s custom knee board pages installed a long time ago thats happen to have the procedure so i figured why not give it a go. I may map the needed switches to a page on the stream deck, then I can just burn through it. Or like you suggested, make a couple macros to do multiple things quickly 

[GavinRay]

It's fine the way it is. Speaking as a new pilot and for a couple of other guys too, it helps a lot. I'm unsure why it's a big deal when it obviously helps people just getting started in this sim and want to graduate to servers.  

[SharpeXB]

On 9/9/2022 at 9:32 AM, Exorcet said:

Even experienced pilots with thousands of hours use a checklist. Thankfully we have modders that have probably made a dl'able checklist for every module.

Sure there are checklists IRL but from watching some RW pilots (I am not one), they don’t seem use them the way gamers appear to need. Obviously they know these procedures by heart and just use the list to confirm after. Some lists are done concurrent with actions but I’m sure that varies. The process is also using a consistent flow around the panels, not looking repeatedly at a list. It’s a cued recall process and not just blank memorization. 
Honestly the one RL video I see of an F-18 the pilot blasts through the process with both hands and clearly isn’t using a list to literally check off every item. The idea of using or needing a written list in the game every time you start up is a bit ridiculous. Although making your own list is a good way to memorize the process, I would encourage that more than just downloading one. 
 

Its funny that there isn’t an actual gameplay reason to know the startup other than to just entertain yourself. If nobody uses this it makes me wonder why ED would bother modeling all of it. And then include a cheat to bypass the effort. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by SharpeXB