DCS: F-14 Development Update - AIM-54 Phoenix Improvements & Overhaul - Guided Discussion

[captain_dalan]

10 hours ago, draconus said:

I get the impression we went from being advised to launch high (over 30k) and fast (over M1), to the same with a little help with manual loft, then another iteration with manual lofting forbidden and 30-40k high, now it has to be well over 40k for a long reach. New data, realism, that's ok, no problem and I like that but I have a question: does it go well with history? Meaning usual CAP was around 30k, right? Were the pilots taught to engage with Phoenix only after reaching as high as possible around 46-48k and over M1 on full burners? What were the prameters of the actual 3 shots done by USN?

For what is worth, during mu initial tactical trials, i experimented with medium to hi altitude subsonic launces and how viable they are against defending veteran AI. I shot at about 30 to 35 mile distances, from altitudes 25-35000ft. This is an example of 28000ft launch at mach 0.95, at co-altitude targets closing in at mach 0.90 to 0.95. The AI went Split-S as soon as the missiles were inside 10 miles. The result was a double kill, with missiles hitting the targets at mach 1.3 and 1.6 respectively. A point worth noting, the missiles were Mk60 Charlies. This isn't that far off from the best confirmed scenario i've achieved with the previous versions of the missiles. This is only a single example though, and may be an outlier. More consistent tests are needed. The old version of the missiles had about 50% pk in this scenario and a lot of that was a result of the seemingly RNG nature of the defense the AI would chose to run with.

This is the tacview of the test:
 

Tacview-20220905-003923-DCS-September F-14A_IA_PG_BVR Mk60.zip.acmi

6 hours ago, Lurker said:

Well considering the fact that for most if not all of its life as a CAP aircraft the ROE actually mandated visual target identification before weapons employment, we won't really know will we. (Unless we can get some reliable Iranian information)

There were "war game" like events during which simulated BVR shots were taken during the F-14's lifetime though. So some general guidelines on doctrine must exist. 

[skywalker22]

8 hours ago, Fulcrumkiller31 said:

It’s pretty hard to notch a Phoenix in DCS at least the C. It’s coming down at such a steep angle.

I would disagree with your statement. I tried BVR against AI (also with 2 at the same time) and new 54C Mk47 and Mk60 can be notched pretty easily. Same was with human players with no RIO (at least I think there was no RIOs on GS server).

 

Tacview-20220909-164255-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20220909-162737-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20220909-174546-DCS.zip.acmi

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

I know someone who is a former Tomcat  pilot who also test fired the Phoenix on at least one occasion. Would this individual be revealing classified military secrets if he simply confirmed or denied that the phoenix was Mach 5 capable? I mean, the last thing I would want to do is to get this person in trouble. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[Meteorlover]

1 hour ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

I know someone who is a former Tomcat  pilot who also test fired the Phoenix on at least one occasion. Would this individual be revealing classified military secrets if he simply confirmed or denied that the phoenix was Mach 5 capable? I mean, the last thing I would want to do is to get this person in trouble. 

 

No one is currently using Phoenix, so report to HB

[Digitalvole]

2 hours ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

I know someone who is a former Tomcat  pilot who also test fired the Phoenix on at least one occasion. Would this individual be revealing classified military secrets if he simply confirmed or denied that the phoenix was Mach 5 capable? I mean, the last thing I would want to do is to get this person in trouble. 

 

Can we say “it’ll be fine” and just hope for the best?

Im pretty close to admitting defeat now tbh. I just can’t get it to work, maybe I’m using it wrong, maybe I’m trying to put it in a scenario it isn’t meant for I dunno. I’m pretty new to all this so my own suckyness is probably playing a considerable part. 

4 (me and 3 ai) Tomcats (46k feet M1) fire 16 54Cs at 6 MiG 29s (30k feet hot) from 40 miles out. Final score F14s killed 2 Migs, Mig 29s killed all the Tomcats. I’ve tried this now many times and the only kill I’ve had was under 20 miles (so no loft).

16 missiles and 2 hits at the cost of all Tomcats.

Im going to try one more time, this time shooting at 30 miles, any closer and I might as well be using Aim 7s. My prediction is that due to the loft I’ll need to support those missiles till I’m well within there missile range and die before they go active.

I thought I’d try it in a Hornet to see if it’s just an un-winnable situation, just me no ai wingman, and I shot three of them down and made good my escape.

So 1 Hornet is more potent than 4 Tomcats? Maybe Mr Cheney was right after all? haha only joking, but I’m sure I’ve annoyed lots of people, so now I’m going to run for my life…

[Exorcet]

The C might have been improved but I think chaff in DCS is still a bit excessive in its ability to decoy missiles. The new AI also doesn't help. It's fantastic that the AI is better at flying, but when you combine that with its all seeing and all knowing senses, it can create problems. You fire your missile at 50 miles away and as soon as you do the AI knows where the missile is and how fast it's traveling. It will know if a simple split S is enough to defeat it, etc. The AI needs some more fallibility.

Lofts being broken until we get the 54 onto the new API isn't helping either. The pitch up to these high loft angles are using some of the missiles energy since we can't pitch the plane up and help the missile along. There are a lot of small details in DCS that are adding together and causing problems at the moment, at least that's the way I see it.

[Comstedt86]

9 minutes ago, Digitalvole said:

Can we say “it’ll be fine” and just hope for the best?

Im pretty close to admitting defeat now tbh. I just can’t get it to work, maybe I’m using it wrong, maybe I’m trying to put it in a scenario it isn’t meant for I dunno. I’m pretty new to all this so my own suckyness is probably playing a considerable part. 

4 (me and 3 ai) Tomcats (46k feet M1) fire 16 54Cs at 6 MiG 29s (30k feet hot) from 40 miles out. Final score F14s killed 2 Migs, Mig 29s killed all the Tomcats. I’ve tried this now many times and the only kill I’ve had was under 20 miles (so no loft).

16 missiles and 2 hits at the cost of all Tomcats.

Im going to try one more time, this time shooting at 30 miles, any closer and I might as well be using Aim 7s. My prediction is that due to the loft I’ll need to support those missiles till I’m well within there missile range and die before they go active.

I thought I’d try it in a Hornet to see if it’s just an un-winnable situation, just me no ai wingman, and I shot three of them down and made good my escape.

So 1 Hornet is more potent than 4 Tomcats? Maybe Mr Cheney was right after all? haha only joking, but I’m sure I’ve annoyed lots of people, so now I’m going to run for my life…

Try firing yourself at 60-70nm and see if results change. 

 

[Rinz1er]

29 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

There are a lot of small details in DCS that are adding together and causing problems at the moment, at least that's the way I see it.

This exactly how I see it as well. The guidance issues, lofting profile, along with the AI's uncanny SA abilities. The lack of target size switch functionality, and more have all led to the situation we are in now. The changes to the pheonix kinematics are not the problem, most of my missiles go active on a target still going close to mach 2 from ~50nm. The target just has a ton of time ~20 seconds to turn cold or descend to beat the missile. It is truly unfortunate... I hope HB along with ED can sort out these issues soon.

[Digitalvole]

41 minutes ago, Comstedt86 said:

Try firing yourself at 60-70nm and see if results change. 

 

I’ll give that a go

[LanceCriminal86]

4 hours ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

I know someone who is a former Tomcat  pilot who also test fired the Phoenix on at least one occasion. Would this individual be revealing classified military secrets if he simply confirmed or denied that the phoenix was Mach 5 capable? I mean, the last thing I would want to do is to get this person in trouble. 

 

Why would the pilot or RIO know the missile's speed during the shoot? They'd need to recall their altitude, airspeed, target alt/airspeed, closure rates, angles, all that. There's so much more to this than someone off the cuff saying "sure it was Mach 5 capable" when even NASA documents showed that the missile wasn't quite hypersonic and they would/did make changes to get it to be hypersonic. They used the Phoenix because they believed it had the potential and there were stocks of them available, not because it already was a 5+ missile.

Now if you find the guys from PMTC, VX-4, Pt Mugu, etc. that were actually doing Phoenix testing and could recall shot profiles and they got to see the instrumentation and after action reports, that might hold a bit more water. Because fleet pilots got to shoot missiles sometimes, but that doesn't necessarily mean "test fire" and "testing" for the purposes of gathering data. Just because I went and qualified at the range doesn't mean I can tell you the actual muzzle velocity my M16A2 was laying down, round per round, from a random batch of M855. They only gave us a general number and instructions for how to make and log our adjustments.

The guys testing the ammo and developing it at Aberdeen or Dahlgren are the ones to tell you the velocity, BC, chamber pressure averages. The guys shooting them might tell you what their holdovers/DOPE was and how it did in the field.

[lunaticfringe]

At 30 miles you should be shooting a Sparrow.  You absolutely need to be shooting longer; the chart-matching Phoenix is like a fine wine- you have to let it breathe.  

1v4, just because I have the mission ready, 14A with 4x 54C-60s against 4x veteran MiG-29s.  3 for 4, with a dropped lock at 40 miles. Shots were taken between 64 and 58 miles. 

Tacview-20220910-145137-DCS-1 v 4 Mig-29s Long Range New BVR Test.zip.acmi

Edited September 10, 2022 by lunaticfringe
Wrong file

[Digitalvole]

2 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

At 30 miles you should be shooting a Sparrow.  You absolutely need to be shooting longer; the chart-matching Phoenix is like a fine wine- you have to let it breathe.  

1v4, just because I have the mission ready, 14A with 4x 54C-60s against 4x veteran MiG-29s.  3 for 4, with a dropped lock at 40 miles. Shots were taken between 64 and 58 miles. 

 

Tacview-20220910-145137-DCS-1 v 4 Mig-29s Long Range New BVR Test.zip.acmi 919.62 kB · 0 downloads

So I need to be a little more adventurous by the sounds of it, I’ll try it out tomorrow. 

[lunaticfringe]

Ran it again for giggles since I didn't trust the lack of response from all but 1 MiG to make sure the file wasn't set "No Response", and it wasn't.  They just didn't balk for some reason.  

Two killed by Phoenix, one by Sparrow, one returned the favor due to my bad SA thinking that three had been hit based on smoke.  Shots 61 to 56 miles. 

Tacview-20220910-152009-DCS-1 v 4 Mig-29s Long Range New BVR Test.zip.acmi

[Callsign JoNay]

2 hours ago, lunaticfringe said:

At 30 miles you should be shooting a Sparrow.  You absolutely need to be shooting longer; the chart-matching Phoenix is like a fine wine- you have to let it breathe.  

1v4, just because I have the mission ready, 14A with 4x 54C-60s against 4x veteran MiG-29s.  3 for 4, with a dropped lock at 40 miles. Shots were taken between 64 and 58 miles. 

Tacview-20220910-145137-DCS-1 v 4 Mig-29s Long Range New BVR Test.zip.acmi 919.62 kB · 2 downloads

 

Gotta love that DCS bug that causes only the first guy in the flight to properly defend while the others maintain straight and level. 

Also, 30 nm with a Sparrow?   I don't shoot outside of 7-ish!

[lunaticfringe]

10 minutes ago, Callsign JoNay said:

Gotta love that DCS bug that causes only the first guy in the flight to properly defend while the others maintain straight and level. 

Also, 30 nm with a Sparrow?   I don't shoot outside of 7-ish!

I build test sets as individual aircraft rather than flights to circumvent that.  They just didn't do anything; RNG must have come up roses in my favor. 

[Callsign JoNay]

25 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

I build test sets as individual aircraft rather than flights to circumvent that.  They just didn't do anything; RNG must have come up roses in my favor. 

Well it might not be a flight thing then. Maybe the bug can occur even with same allied individual AI fighters in close proximity. Abysmal AI™ as usual.

[Uxi]

I just did some testing. The ME did some interesting things.... the CAP has a mix of weapon loadouts usually A with Mk 60 and C Mk 47 but all the other profiles (Escort, Precision Attack,  etc)  look like they did C with Mk 60. Was that intentional or am oversight?  C with Mk 60 would be more of an odd duck by my impressions. 

 

I was using an Iran F-4 as a drone substitute in NTTR, flying at 38k ft going Mach 1.2. I miss from 50-60 miles but hit reliably at 45. This was a shoulder station since the main training mission is delivery of a couple GBU-10.  

The Phoenix misses were all followed up with Sparrow hits, which was nice Ti see since my early experience with Sparrows was not good so nice to see them effective. 

[superhavoc]

Hello all, just thought I would add my thoughts to the discussion after test-firing all week

First of all, in my honest opinion as of right now, the biggest problem with AIM-54 Pk is not the missiles themselves, but rather the AI they're being fired against.  The AI seems to react almost too early, knows precisely where the missile is relative to them at all times, and executes nearly perfect evasive maneuvering to counter the incoming missile most of the time.  Over the past week of test firing, I've seen some downright ridiculous and inhuman maneuvers from the AI.  Obviously this is a problem that affects all missiles in DCS, but has been much more noticeable on the Phoenix (at least for me) being a long-range AAM.

Second, while the Phoenix may be slower overall now, 60NM shots against fighters are still very possible (though launching above that range against aware fighters is a bit of a diceroll imo) and 40NM shots at 30,000+ (speed=mach 1) I have found to be quite effective, especially now that the Phoenix bleeds far less speed after going pitbull on a target, allowing for more endgame 'pull'.

Third, given my grievances I mentioned earlier with the AI in it's current state, I suspect the AIM-54s could have a higher Pk against targets flown by actual humans, simply due to reaction, choice of maneuver, and lower SA.  I have yet to test the Phoenix in multiplayer, but I plan to do some pvp in the coming days and I am extremely curious what results I'll see.

One peculiar thing I would like to point out, when I launch an AIM-54C Mk60 at a target 40NM away at mach 1 at ~40,000 feet, the AI will instantly execute a split-s when it goes pitbull and run the the missile out of speed 100% of the time.  However, under the exact same conditions, the target will never split-s (though it will perform some other maneuver) against the AIM-54C Mk47 and will hit about 85% of the time.  Both Mk60 and Mk47 are close to the same speed and altitude when the AI reacts. Not sure if this is a bug, but I'd be interested to know if anyone else has experienced this?

On a final note, the Phoenix may now lack the raw power it had before, but it feels much more refined now (despite still having some remaining polish needed), and with how closely this version mirrors real world data shows the work Heatblur have accomplished with the relatively limited info they have.  Well done.

[Digitalvole]

4 hours ago, AirMeister said:

Please understand i'm not hating on you or anything but: 
 

Ok fair enough, ditto, but if you talked to me like that in the pub I wouldn’t have much respect for you and I’d politely ask you to leave me alone. Just saying. Relax mate you sound like you take this stuff a bit too personally. 

You’ve made a few assumptions and (by the looks of it) skim read my post. I’ll try and address your points one by one.

4 hours ago, AirMeister said:

You're talking about a range of 40 nautical miles on manouvering fighters.
What on earth are you expecting ? That's a LONG way. 
 

So you say, but scroll up and you’ll see there is plenty of contradictory advice on this. But in my (limited) experience, and in the scenario I’m using (6x Mig 29 vs either 2 or 4 F14s) anything less than 40nm leads to getting too close and getting shot down. Mainly because the missile takes quite a while to reach its target.

I did say in my post that “maybe I’m trying to put it in a scenario it isn’t meant for”. I have at no point said the missile is broken. But if it’s not suitable for what I use DCS for then I need to fly a different airframe. No problem.

4 hours ago, AirMeister said:

Then you say you will use SPARROWS for your 30 nautical mile !! shots. Have you ever fired a sparrow, even once ? Good luck with that. 

Rmax of a Aim 7 at 30,000 ft is 30nm according to Prez’s f14 video (great vids btw). I was at 46,000, as I said. So does this seem so ridiculous to be considering going to the Aim 7 over the Aim 54? I’m not going to shoot at 30 nm but I can start thinking about how to employ the Sparrow rather than support a Phoenix till it goes active after it’s loft, by which time the bandit is almost up my nose.

4 hours ago, AirMeister said:

You got your ranges so screwed up by years of using a wrongly modeled phoenix missile that you've now lost all reality for ranges and energy. 

Hmm, first paragraph of my post says I’m new to all this. I started trying to learn the Aim 54 about not long before the latest patch. Assume makes an ass of u and me.

4 hours ago, AirMeister said:

I hate to break it to you man, but you were spoiled way too much and now you simply suck at BVR because of it. 

I think if you’d read my post properly, or not got mad half way through perhaps? you’d have seen I’m new to all this. Again, Assume makes a ass….

And I can’t resist pointing out, as I said, I had no problems in a single Hornet.

May I offer you some advice? I’m sure you are knowledgeable and have a lot to share, but if you come across as an A-hole (not saying you are one, but you are coming across a bit like one) people aren’t likely to listen.

Maybe you just had a bad nights sleep and aren’t having a great morning, it happens to the best of us. Right now I have to fix a curtain rail my daughter has just ripped out the wall, I’m not having a great morning either, so I apologise if I come across as overly annoyed.

Thanks for the advice though, I will bear it all in mind.  
 

Edit; I was a bit exacerbated by my continued failures when I posted, but the post above mine pretty much my thinking on what’s going on. I think the Ai is too capable of dodging these missiles, not that the missile is broken.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Digitalvole

[Coxy_99]

My mate in a pub told me when he fired an aim-54 it did Mach 6 i must tell Heatblur, On a serious note the new updates are cool,  Still more than happy you guys are putting into this keep up the good work 

Anymore updates to come just out of curiosity? Or we nearing the final stage? 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Coxy_99

[captain_dalan]

4 hours ago, superhavoc said:

 

First of all, in my honest opinion as of right now, the biggest problem with AIM-54 Pk is not the missiles themselves, but rather the AI they're being fired against.  The AI seems to react almost too early, knows precisely where the missile is relative to them at all times, and executes nearly perfect evasive maneuvering to counter the incoming missile most of the time.  Over the past week of test firing, I've seen some downright ridiculous and inhuman maneuvers from the AI.  Obviously this is a problem that affects all missiles in DCS, but has been much more noticeable on the Phoenix (at least for me) being a long-range AAM.

 

Agreed, the AI's perfect SA, especially the "inverted notch" (where the AI is notching a missile with perfect accuracy even when it's facing that missile with its belly up is out of this world. However, there are a lot of things a truly intelligent AI can do prior to Pitbull to spoil your shots, especially your TWS shots, that the AI doesn't really do right now, nor it ever did. So up to a point, the end result somewhat evens out. Though, it may and will lead to people developing harmful "meta" habits that will get them killed in MP PvP or/when ED does further improvements to the AI behavior.

4 hours ago, superhavoc said:

 

One peculiar thing I would like to point out, when I launch an AIM-54C Mk60 at a target 40NM away at mach 1 at ~40,000 feet, the AI will instantly execute a split-s when it goes pitbull and run the the missile out of speed 100% of the time.  However, under the exact same conditions, the target will never split-s (though it will perform some other maneuver) against the AIM-54C Mk47 and will hit about 85% of the time.  Both Mk60 and Mk47 are close to the same speed and altitude when the AI reacts. Not sure if this is a bug, but I'd be interested to know if anyone else has experienced this?

On a final note, the Phoenix may now lack the raw power it had before, but it feels much more refined now (despite still having some remaining polish needed), and with how closely this version mirrors real world data shows the work Heatblur have accomplished with the relatively limited info they have.  Well done.

Oddly, i actually find the Mk60 Charlies more reliable right now, at least against Veteran targets, fired from medium to high altitudes sub mach 1. Overall. my Pk is about 50% when engaging 2 targets at the same time, which even more oddly, is the same Pk i had before the changes. It's only the employment method that's changed. 

[Coxy_99]

7 hours ago, AirMeister said:

Then you say you will use SPARROWS for your 30 nautical mile !! shots. Have you ever fired a sparrow, even once ? Good luck with that.

 
 

 

Im a cat and i dis approve of 10nm sparrow shots..................

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[lunaticfringe]

44 minutes ago, Coxy_99 said:

Im a cat and i dis approve of 10nm sparrow shots..................

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Endorsed.  Albeit a tad cheaty*. 

(*- not on Coxy's part)

That said, it's the magic, all-knowing AI with the overwide notch that is causing AIM-7s to get trashed.  Kinematically, the 7M will easily go 25+ nm on a maneuvering target, and the MH will do 35+ with it's loft.  When they're passing within 1-2 miles with enough energy, it's a tracking issue caused by better than human defense, rather than the weapon itself.

And the followup MH kill in the second ACMI is 13nm.  That is, 10 is in no way a hard limit. 

 

34nm 7MH - 13nm 7MH - Tacview-20220911-124654-DCS-Sparrow 1 v 1 Mig-29s Long Range New BVR Test.zip.acmi 24nm 7M - Tacview-20220911-123413-DCS.zip.acmi

Edited September 11, 2022 by lunaticfringe

[ShinyMikey]

1 hour ago, Coxy_99 said:

 

      Hey Coxy, I don't remember taking that Aim-7 in the face... Nice shot!

[Spurts]

Was that HOJ?  Coxy looks cold well before impact.