Why does apache roll so much?

[DoctorVixen]

On 9/15/2022 at 1:54 PM, BIGNEWY said:

please include a short track replay example so we can see what is happening, you can save a track replay when you exit the mission.

ensure you have game flight and game avionics unticked in DCS settings 

module broke for me as well, i get extreme yaw to the left instead of right when not even touching the collective (al controlls centered, need 60% right rudder trim to negate, whgat should be happening is a slight yaw to the right when pulling on the collective... to negate i should only need rudder trim of 25-30%, also the rudder pedals seems to be very far off unless u put some serious curves on the axis. long story short, i dont know what this is supposed to simulate but i am not interested in fantasy. i wish this module would work for me normally, i don't care if its hard, but i have zero interest in a simulation that uses fantasy flight models. the fact the my apache spins left instead of right as for other people breaks the complete game for me, i think most simmers can understand why.

 

[Swift.]

13 minutes ago, DoctorVixen said:

module broke for me as well, i get extreme yaw to the left instead of right when not even touching the collective (al controlls centered, need 60% right rudder trim to negate, whgat should be happening is a slight yaw to the right when pulling on the collective... to negate i should only need rudder trim of 25-30%, also the rudder pedals seems to be very far off unless u put some serious curves on the axis. long story short, i dont know what this is supposed to simulate but i am not interested in fantasy. i wish this module would work for me normally, i don't care if its hard, but i have zero interest in a simulation that uses fantasy flight models. the fact the my apache spins left instead of right as for other people breaks the complete game for me, i think most simmers can understand why.

 

The neutral position of the pedals doesnt correlate to neutral thrust from the tail rotor. It is biased slightly so that you can get more nose left motion than nose right.
The effect of this is as you observed, the helicopter will rotate if you unlock the tail wheel with the pedals 'centred'.

This is not 'fantasy' as you said, its just how the helicopter is, remember helicopters aren't like fixed wing aircraft: they are instead gloriously asymmetric.

[bradmick]

Never unlock the tail wheel unless you’re rolling forward.

Your pedals should be to the right when at flat pitch. That is to say, to the right of the center line on the control indicator. You don’t have your control indicator up, so I have no idea how your pedals started out, or where dcs said your pedals were. 

If you find yourself yawing left, do that pilot thing and apply right pedal to stop it. Additionally, keep in mind that as you increase collective, you’ll need to apply left pedal, because the nose will want to yaw right. 
 

My general impression is you’re falling into the same trap all the other folks who keep complaining about this are: that the helicopter should do this for me. And no, no it shouldn’t, and won’t. You, the pilot are responsible for the operation of the aircraft. When you’re on the ground, the squat switch (weight on wheels switch) is pressed, this disables heading hold and yaw CAS. This means, and reinforces that you the pilot need to positively control the helicopter, because it won’t do it for you.

 

[Floyd1212]

In fairness, the training mission he was performing did tell him to unlock the tail wheel while he was still sitting there...

Regardless, here is what I am seeing for pedal input to keep the helo from yawing after unlocking the tailwheel. 

My axis is setup with Y-Saturation of 80.  I would say 60% right pedal is a bit of an exaggeration, but yes, you have to apply some right pedal before unlocking that tail wheel.  No fantasy FM or other wizardry involved.

[admiki]

TBH, I am not surprised.

Most Apache people are interested in shooting HFs. Physics of helicopter flight? What is that? And why do I need it? I want HELLFIRES!

ED, maybe you should create tutorial mission on HELICOPTER BASICS?

 

[bradmick]

6 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

In fairness, the training mission he was performing did tell him to unlock the tail wheel while he was still sitting there...

Regardless, here is what I am seeing for pedal input to keep the helo from yawing after unlocking the tailwheel. 

My axis is setup with Y-Saturation of 80.  I would say 60% right pedal is a bit of an exaggeration, but yes, you have to apply some right pedal before unlocking that tail wheel.  No fantasy FM or other wizardry involved.

Where you have the pedals positioned is the actual neutral position. Hit the force trim button to set it, and you’re golden.

Edited November 13, 2022 by bradmick

[pii]

17 hours ago, Swift. said:

i wish this module would work for me normally

Then don't buy Early Access products the flight model is a WIP. 

[Swift.]

52 minutes ago, pii said:

Then don't buy Early Access products the flight model is a WIP. 

I don't think you mean to attribute that quote to me, but for the person who said it. His issue is not an attribute of the WIPness of the module but rather a misunderstanding of how the helicopter works.

[Dragon1-1]

AFAIK, the FMC on the real Apache actually filters out that sort of thing. So it's very much about it being WIP. Not just FM, but all those things that make the Apache so nice and somewhat un-helicopterlike (it that it doesn't try to kill you all the time) to fly.

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

So it's very much about it being WIP.

There was nothing in that video that is attributable to the flight model of DCS: AH-64D. If I were to perform the exact same actions and control inputs in the real AH-64D that I observed in the video 10 posts above mine at the top of the page, I would expect the same behavior.

As @bradmick stated, it seems to be a matter of false expectations of how helicopters function.

[bradmick]

No. You have to actively fly an Apache. The FMC makes it so there is an even response to a control input over the flight envelope. It dampens out winds and other upsets. It doesn’t just magically fly for you.

 

There isn’t ever a point when flying the real thing that I’m like “yeah, I’ll just let go of the flight controls now” and it’ll fly itself for me. It doesn’t work that way at all.

Edited November 13, 2022 by bradmick

[TZeer]

On 11/13/2022 at 4:39 AM, bradmick said:

 

t. When you’re on the ground, the squat switch (weight on wheels switch) is pressed, this disables heading hold and yaw CAS. This means, and reinforces that you the pilot need to positively control the helicopter, because it won’t do it for you.

 

Is this implemented though?

Last time I checked, the CAS was still giving inputs to the tailrotor while taxing. Although less then before, but I could still see the green marker applying extra input to the YAW channel unless I hold the trim reset button down while taxing.

[cow_art]

Hm, I get the feeling I just don't always understand what the FMC in the Apache is trying to accomplish. Like for example why does the SAS start applying left yaw at around 2:25 in DoctorVixen's video. It looks like it wants to enforce the spin, for whatever reason. I'm not saying its wrong, but I'd like to better understand why the Apache does what it does. 

Disclaimer: I have never flown a real helicopter but I have played the sith out of every reasonable helicopter sim that was released in the last 20+ years. And I usually get to a point where I understand why things are happening and everything feels pretty predictable. And when a maneuver doesn't go as planned, I usually understand what _I_ did wrong and what I should have done differently. Just to be sure: I'm not talking about crashing, I' talking more about fine maneuvers like "I am hovering and I want to turn left until I face precisely that tree, without overshooting or losing balance."

With the Apache this level of understanding has so far not happened for me (I know about force trim release and heading hold). I mean it's mostly "okay", but it's somehow weird and other DCS helos feel way more predictable to me. The Apache sometimes just does things that confuse me and give me the feeling that my goals and the goal of whatever the flight computer is doing are not aligned.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by cow_art

[bradmick]

You do understand that as you increase the collective, main rotor torque causes the nose to want to go to the right, this requires left pedal on the part o fhe pilot...or in the case of that Apache, the FMC. It WANTS to hold the nose on the heading you start out on because of heading hold. As the helicopter comes off the ground, and the weight-on-wheels (squat) switch is no longer being compressed, heading hold engages and does it's job. I can pick the helicopter up off the gound in the current OB build without applying any pedal whatsoever, from the position the pedals start at when you load into the sim. 

 

If you're asking yourself why the helicotper's FMC or pilot, with a counter clockwise turning main rotor system, who's nose turns right when torque is applied, would want to apply left pedal...you might want to spend some time researching how helicopters natural operate. It's a fundamental requirement to being successful in a helicopter.

[Floyd1212]

2 hours ago, cow_art said:

The Apache sometimes just does things that confuse me and give me the feeling that my goals and the goal of whatever the flight computer is doing are not aligned.

I think this goes back to some of the other threads that discuss the SCAS and the "breakout values" where the computers make the decision to stop fighting you to try and keep the aircraft at the desired heading, and start to help you.  Pressing and holding the FTR is the way the pilot tells the computers "I am maneuvering the aircraft now, don't fight me".

Personally, my FTR button on my cyclic is too uncomfortable to hold for extended periods, so I use the "tap method" instead, but this means I am constantly butting heads with the SCAS with my intentions to maneuver the aircraft, vs. the SCAS's intentions to maintain an attitude.

[DoctorVixen]

I haven't realised there was so much reaction on the post.

For everyones info, i know that heli's dont fly itself. changing collective usually means a correction with rudder.

In most tutorials i saw, i saw people talking about having to adjust with left rudder (i needed to adjust with right rudder). That is what worried me the most.

In hindsight, maybe in the youtube tutorials, they kept the tailwheel locked, at about 40% collective you need some correction left.

Also some patches might have changed things, i bought the module on patch 2.8.

If you look at this take off by 'wags', I needed to do it different but probably because i was given the instruction to unlock and relock the tailwheel before pulling on the collective or because a patch changed the flight model or maybe a combination of both. I am not sure if the tailwheel is locked or unlocked in this video...

 

conclusion:

my module is probably working the same for as for anyone else. no need to worry. 

keep the tailwheel locked and go taxi first then unlock the tailwheel and correct ( which way depends on how much collective u give), unlocking the tailwheel on idle collective can be usefull if you want to turn in place :P.

I think that training missions might be affected by patches in certain occasions.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by DoctorVixen

[Floyd1212]

Yes, the flight model has changed over time, and the position of your pedals will not match what you see in that video any longer.
 

On a side note, if you come across any old track files and play them back on a current version of DCS, you will get very different results than you would when they were made. I had some tracks of me flying up and down the length of a runway, practicing decelerating to a hover at each end, and playing back those tracks now result in me spinning around and veering off to one side and crashing. 

[DoctorVixen]

1 minute ago, Floyd1212 said:

Yes, the flight model has changed over time, and the position of your pedals will not match what you see in that video any longer.
 

On a side note, if you come across any old track files and play them back on a current version of DCS, you will get very different results than you would when they were made. I had some tracks of me flying up and down the length of a runway, practicing decelerating to a hover at each end, and playing back those tracks now result in me spinning around and veering off to one side and crashing. 

thx, makes sense. Besides patches affecting track files i suspect it has an affect on the training missions as well. 

was worried that the module was behaving different for me but fortunately its not the case.

however training mission 2 will probably become quite a challenge for most new apache pilots :).

[DoctorVixen]

On 11/12/2022 at 11:39 PM, kgillers3 said:

Well for future reference if you do pick it up again, after the tail wheel unlocks frantically hitting the tail wheel button won’t relock it until you place it back in the proper position. 

 

Well i know that, the point is that is what the training mission is suggesting. Don't talk about trim or torque, just say to lock and the relock the tailwheel. then go taxi and take off. great training huh?

Edited November 21, 2022 by DoctorVixen

[DoctorVixen]

On 11/15/2022 at 1:04 PM, bradmick said:

If you're asking yourself why the helicotper's FMC or pilot, with a counter clockwise turning main rotor system, who's nose turns right when torque is applied, would want to apply left pedal...you might want to spend some time researching how helicopters natural operate. It's a fundamental requirement to being successful in a helicopter.

yeah, I guess after 15 years of flying the ka-50 with no problems we can state that the ka-50 is not a helicopter. (and yes i know the torque is less because of the double rotor)

Maybe the Apache is fine and this is just how an Apache flies. If this is the case then the Apache is just not for me, and I prefer the hind or ka-50.

Having a helo/plane with an ai is new for me too, not a fan of george the cpg so far, pilot george is ok, no problems there.

On cold start up using track ir, the boresighting method wont always work (well the procedure will work, but george his view will be miles off when u slave him to where you are looking).

I'll give it another try on release.

[DoctorVixen]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:30 PM, Swift. said:

I don't think you mean to attribute that quote to me, but for the person who said it. His issue is not an attribute of the WIPness of the module but rather a misunderstanding of how the helicopter works.

it was not, but people like to make that from it.

M y issue was that I've seen video's of people all giving rudder left (push left pedal), I had to give right rudder (push right pedal). That was what worried me the most, I thought it bugged for me.

I have the ka-50 for 15 years since day 1. And although she has less torque effects i know how Heli's works.

You're the type of person that would have said exactly the same, 6 months ago if I said the flight model was off. Well it was off and that' s why they changed it, I just think they are not quite done.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by DoctorVixen

[DoctorVixen]

On 9/21/2022 at 9:45 PM, corbu1 said:

when rolling on the ground straight forward I had to apply right pedal. In previous versions I always had to apply some left pedal for rolling straight forward and tailwheel unlocked.

That's right, I bought the module on patch 2.8. I've been watching videos on how to taxi and take off (because the training mission 2 doesn't work out so well in this patch.....), they where all pre-patch 2.8. So when i tried to taxi i noticed i had to give rudder the opposite way. this was very confusing. So i thought my installation was bugged at first (as i just installed it like an hour earlier, training mission gave trouble too....). But it has just been changes to the flight model.

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by DoctorVixen

[Rogue Trooper]

Sweet module for me, ED are aiming for the best chopper module ever and when I spool up those engines..... I feel it balls to bones when I fly it.

I am having difficulty understanding what is occurring in some parts of the chopper community right now?

Are we infested with noobs right now?  for sure this is the module to attract the casual jet pilot to give choppers a try. but we nderstand that the long term jet pilot who is used to total flyby wire flight, will have difficulty adapting to a machine that just does not want to fly...yes?

Edited November 21, 2022 by Rogue Trooper

[admiki]

9 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Sweet module for me, ED are aiming for the best chopper module ever and when I spool up those engines..... I feel it balls to bones when I fly it.

I am having difficulty understanding what is occurring in some parts of the chopper community right now?

Are we infested with noobs right now?  for sure this is the module to attract the casual jet pilot to give choppers a try. but we nderstand that the long term jet pilot who is used to total flyby wire flight, will have difficulty adapting to a machine that just does not want to fly...yes?

 

Yes

[VampireNZ]

On 11/22/2022 at 9:03 PM, admiki said:

Yes

Not sure it is entirely the 'noobs' that are the problem. As an 'interested 3rd party' investigating the Apache with a view to purchase (I have every other heli module already, so why not lol) - it is a little comical when you see a member of the ED Beta Tester Team stating....

"There isn’t ever a point when flying the real thing that I’m like “yeah, I’ll just let go of the flight controls now” and it’ll fly itself for me. It doesn’t work that way at all."

and then literally in their VERY NEXT POST...

"I can pick the helicopter up off the gound in the current OB build without applying any pedal whatsoever, from the position the pedals start at when you load into the sim"

Just so we are on the same page, the anti-torque pedals are a flight control. 

As I said, just interesting and amusing - but I can see how these 'modern-ish' helicopters with their fancy 'stability control systems' can cause issues in sims such as this with most people not having access to the 'correct' type of control device as used in the real machine, and want to enojoy the 'challenge' of flyinig a helicopter. I personally enjoy flying the Hind much more by disabling all SAS systems, but they are useful for boring A-B flying. I guess we need to remember these machines are designed as weapon delivery platforms - not machines to test the flying dexterity and ability of the pilots 24/7 when they would rather be focusing on what is happening in the battlespace and employing weapons etc.