DCS Newsletter discussion 16th September 2022 - DCS: Tornado | multicrew progress | Growling Sidewinder

[QuiGon]

2 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

Are these capabilities simply more weapons that are integrated or did it have a more capable nav/attack suite or sensors?

In 1989 there wasn't much difference between UK and German Tornados. UK Tornados had slightly more fuel, but that's pretty much it. Weapons were different, but similar.

[Bremspropeller]

5 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

Are these capabilities simply more weapons that are integrated or did it have a more capable nav/attack suite or sensors?

Weapons, plus a tank inside the fin. The weapons-part is mostly the use of LGBs in RAFG. At first in conjunction with the Banana Jets and buddy l@zing. Later on (post Granby) the Tonkas started self-l@zing.

There's other stuff like 4 shoulder-pylons instead of two, whichlater offered very curious ALARM loadouts.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[QuiGon]

1 minute ago, Bremspropeller said:

Weapons, plus a tank inside the fin. The weapons-part is mostly the use of LGBs in RAFG. At first in conjunction with the Banana Jets and buddy l@zing. Later on (post Granby) the Tonkas started self-l@zing.

No LGBs on any Tornado in 1989. They came later.

[Bremspropeller]

Just now, QuiGon said:

No LGBs on any Tornado in 1989. They came later.

That's incorrect. RAFG was doing LGBs (can't remember if that was the Laarbruch or Brüggen wing) in the mid/late80s.

[QuiGon]

1 minute ago, Bremspropeller said:

That's incorrect. RAFG was doing LGBs (can't remember if that was the Laarbruch or Brüggen wing) in the mid/late80s.

Interesting, any source?
I guess they relied on ground designation then?

Edited September 16, 2022 by QuiGon

[WinterH]

MW-1 was later I take it? So I'm guessing iron bombs, Kormoran, maybe also a couple of HARMs right? Or was HARM an ECR only thing, I seem to recall German IDS' could carry a couple but I may be wrong. Anysi, sounds good to me :))

[Kev2go]

19 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

The contemporary GR1 was more capable than the '89 german IDS. Plus the GR1 had about 900lbs more internal gas.

A '91 (post Operation Granby) RAFG GR.1 would have been the optimal Tornado to bring to DCS in my opinion - the connecting fibre between the old Cold War all weather low-level strike and the post-CW medium altitude LGB delivery platform. The GAF/GNAF Tornado IDS won't be half bad, but the GR1 would have been the icing on the cake.

 

i bring up the italian IDS version contemporary of Gr1 just had modest modification later in its life such as GPS and some advanced weapons. (according to a 2007 manual)  Italians had Harms, Kormoran JDams and even Storm Shadow slapped onto a Gr1  where as the brits just a did a proper upgrade via Gr4.

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Kev2go

[AvroLanc]

4 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

In 1989 there wasn't much difference between UK and German Tornados. UK Tornados had slightly more fuel, but that's pretty much it. Weapons were different, but similar.

The UK Gr.1s had the LRMTS under the nose while the Italian and Germans did not. 

The Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker was a system to provide laser ranging in a low level type attack where Radar ranging might be unreliable. The Marked Target Seeker was a Laser Spot Tracker type system for working with ground FACs. Both would be welcome additions to any DCS module. 

Plus the extra fuel. UK Tornados also had different RWR gear and different radios. 

3 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Interesting, any source?
I guess they relied on ground designation then?

 

Of course, and Buccaneer support. RAF Buccaneers would have provided buddy lasing support with their Pave Spike pods. As they did during the Gulf War. 

[QuiGon]

5 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

The UK Gr.1s had the LRMTS under the nose while the Italian and Germans did not. 

The Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker was a system to provide laser ranging in a low level type attack where Radar ranging might be unreliable. The Marked Target Seeker was a Laser Spot Tracker type system for working with ground FACs. Both would be welcome additions to any DCS module.

I'm aware of the LRMTS, but when did Paveways got integrated?
 

6 minutes ago, WinterH said:

MW-1 was later I take it? So I'm guessing iron bombs, Kormoran, maybe also a couple of HARMs right? Or was HARM an ECR only thing, I seem to recall German IDS' could carry a couple but I may be wrong. Anysi, sounds good to me :))

MW-1 was introduced in 1985.
HARMs were used by IDS too.

Edited September 16, 2022 by QuiGon

[Bremspropeller]

7 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Interesting, any source?

Michael Napier's book on the GR1.

Has pictures of 20 Squadron GR1s with LGBs training for "Option Lima" in summer/autumn of '85. Option Lima included buddy lasing by Buccaneers.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[QuiGon]

Just now, Bremspropeller said:

Michael Napier's book on the GR1.

Which one exactly?

[AvroLanc]

Just now, QuiGon said:

I'm aware of the LRMTS, but when did Paveways got integrated?
 

MW-1 was introduced in 1985.

 

Mid/late 80’s. 
Paveway didn’t really need to be ‘integrated’, just hooked on the jet and a role change and training to work with third party lasing.

System integration would have happened during the lead to the the Gulf War, when the TIALD TGP was rushed into service. 

[Bremspropeller]

1 minute ago, QuiGon said:

Which one exactly?

Get all ofthem and figure it out on your own. I promise that's money well spent.

Pg46 thru 48 on the one titled "Tornado GR1 - An oparational History".

[Kev2go]

did the Luftwaffe IDS or RAF GR1 ever get a targeting pod?

Italian IDS could use the CLDP TGP

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Kev2go

[QuiGon]

1 minute ago, Bremspropeller said:

Get all ofthem and figure it out on your own. I promise that's money well spent.

Pg46 thru 48 on the one titled "Tornado GR1 - An oparational History".

Ah, that one I don't have
 

2 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

Mid/late 80’s. 
Paveway didn’t really need to be ‘integrated’, just hooked on the jet and a role change and training to work with third party lasing.

System integration would have happened during the lead to the the Gulf War, when the TIALD TGP was rushed into service. 

Thanks!
 

Just now, Kev2go said:

did the Luftwaffe IDS or RAF GR1 ever get a targeting pod?

Italian IDS could use the CLDP TGP

Luftwaffe Tornados use the Litening TGP.

Edited September 16, 2022 by QuiGon

[Dondy]

The german Tornados also had some french Matra bombs and cluster munition BL-755.

[DishDoggie]

Lol I know a Englander that talks real fast that is going to be real Happy about this. Lol I bet he knew about it all along... Lol I get a kick out of that fast talker. 

[Bremspropeller]

16 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

I guess they relied on ground designation then?

No, I literally explained what they were relying on in the post you were initially quoting.

The profile would have most likely looked very similar to what had been described over in the F-4E forum by one of the SMEs - low-level ingress, pop-up and a couple of exciting seconds finding, designating and destroying the target with buddy-lasing by Buccaneers.

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

So no rocket pods or cluster munitions (other than the MW-1)?

Reply from discord "Rockets no. TOR never operated rockets. BL755 and Mk-20 as other cluster munitions planned."

They also confirmed HARM.

P.S. I believe 'other' refers to 'other than MW-1', so we might get that too).

[Rick50]

2 hours ago, Rinz1er said:

So it is the GR1 Tornado then?  

Sad we won't get brimstone...

Brimstone is awesome in real world. Not sure it's all that much fun for a simulation entertainment title, compared to the excitement of screaming right over target, for specific time on target, drop high drag bombs, and then skadadle out of there as low and fast as you can before the Migs bounce ya!!  I dunno man, 1989 sounds just awesome to me!!

 

Besides with the Typhoon module you'll likely get Brimstones eventually (not at start of EA). Maybe other platforms too.

[QuiGon]

2 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

designating and destroying the target with buddy-lasing by Buccaneers.

In the 80s? I thought the first Buccaneer-Tornado-Buddy-LGB-Drop happened in May 1990.

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, rkk01 said:

FANTASTIC…!!!

the Tonka and the Kola map are going to get some heavy heavy, use…

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Gunfreak

[Bremspropeller]

3 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

In the 80s? I thought the first Buccaneer-Tornado-Buddy-LGB-Drop happened in May 1990.

Nope. 1985. Buccs using Pave Spike.

[QuiGon]

1 minute ago, Bremspropeller said:

Nope. 1985. Buccs using Pave Spike.

Ohhh, Pave Spike, got it
I was just thinking about TIALD

Edited September 16, 2022 by QuiGon

[Bremspropeller]

Yeah, they were experimenting. Seems like it was only one squadron in either the Laarbruch or Brüggen wing (I think it was Laarbruch).