AH-1Z Viper

[GUFA]

10 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

4 Blade Twin Engine Marine Cobra is the way to Go

 

3 minutes ago, Swift. said:

The avionics are so advanced and slick, its lovely

If a AH-1J/T/W/Z is actually something that's in the development pipeline. Pleaaase for the love of... actualy do a USMC Assets pack or 2. This is one thing that really grinds my gears not having the trimmings for the meal. I cant believe that we have Striker in game but none of the USMC LAV variants.

[Swift.]

11 minutes ago, GUFA said:

 

If a AH-1J/T/W/Z is actually something that's in the development pipeline. Pleaaase for the love of... actualy do a USMC Assets pack or 2. This is one thing that really grinds my gears not having the trimmings for the meal. I cant believe that we have Striker in game but none of the USMC LAV variants.

I don't think anyone knows anything about a Cobra in the pipeline, my impression of its avionics are from the hours of Google Fu I've been doing.

[GUFA]

Belsimtech seems to have had an interest a while back but thats moot now after ED merged with them.

Edited November 10, 2022 by GUFA

[GDLlong]

AH1Z yes

[Swift.]

The Zulus avionics are so fantastic, it's a shame they didn't go with a 25mm cannon or something to match the rest of the MEUs cannons.

[exhausted]

3 hours ago, Swift. said:

The Zulus avionics are so fantastic, it's a shame they didn't go with a 25mm cannon or something to match the rest of the MEUs cannons.

Does that really matter in cyber space? Right now our option is to put an RAF roundel on an Apache and fly it off a ship. A proper Cobra would scratch that itch a lot better.

[Swift.]

1 hour ago, exhausted said:

Does that really matter in cyber space? Right now our option is to put an RAF roundel on an Apache and fly it off a ship. A proper Cobra would scratch that itch a lot better.

I meant for the helicopter in general. I would fly a DCS AH1Z even if it only had an M60 mounted on the chin!

[exhausted]

On 11/13/2022 at 7:12 PM, Swift. said:

I meant for the helicopter in general. I would fly a DCS AH1Z even if it only had an M60 mounted on the chin!

I would fly the AH-1Z, even if it had a derringer in 22 short in the chin 

[bies]

Isn't AH-1Z variant totally classified and impossible to be made for DCS, without the slightest chance Bell Helicopter signing the lisense or revealing it's avionics and systems details? USMC declared that the AH-1Z had attained combat readiness just at the end of 2010.

Some time ago i've heard an interview with AH-1 pilot, he flown W and Z variants and he stated something like AH-1W was far more fun to fly as Z was fully computerized flight control.

But overall every Cobra from AH-1G to AH-1W should be possible to make in a realistic way.

[Swift.]

1 hour ago, bies said:

Isn't AH-1Z variant totally classified and impossible to be made for DCS, without the slightest chance Bell Helicopter signing the lisense or revealing it's avionics and systems details? USMC declared that the AH-1Z had attained combat readiness just at the end of 2010.

Some time ago i've heard an interview with AH-1 pilot, he flown W and Z variants and he stated something like AH-1W was far more fun to fly as Z was fully computerized flight control.

But overall every Cobra from AH-1G to AH-1W should be possible to make in a realistic way.

Im pretty confident there is enough information for a Zulu to be modelled. The stuff I can think of as missing would be specifics about how the aircraft 'feels' to fly. But thats always the case with any aircraft.

Whether Bell will grant a license if ED ever decide to make a Zulu is another matter.

[bies]

1 hour ago, Swift. said:

The stuff I can think of as missing would be specifics about how the aircraft 'feels' to fly.

That's the problem - according to him you don't feel much since AH-1Z doesn't even have cyclic stick. If i understood him correctly, instead it has short electronic joystick, like F-16, placed on the right panel, which you use to tell the helicopter what you want to do and it is not even connected to the rotor. Its all 100% computer controlled.

To be honest if i would have Cobra in DCS i would like some pure variant with classic helicopter collective and cyclic. It's a small nimble helicopter, it would be fun to fly. I'm afraid super modern Z variant would be like Apache D with different flavour and without radar. Does it even have any combat history?

[Swift.]

14 hours ago, bies said:

That's the problem - according to him you don't feel much since AH-1Z doesn't even have cyclic stick. If i understood him correctly, instead it has short electronic joystick, like F-16, placed on the right panel, which you use to tell the helicopter what you want to do and it is not even connected to the rotor. Its all 100% computer controlled.

To be honest if i would have Cobra in DCS i would like some pure variant with classic helicopter collective and cyclic. It's a small nimble helicopter, it would be fun to fly. I'm afraid super modern Z variant would be like Apache D with different flavour and without radar. Does it even have any combat history?

AH-1Z does have a cyclic, its just on the side for both cockpits. Rather than being central for the aft cockpit and on the side for the front cockpit like the OG cobras had. 

The description of the control linkages seems very similar to apache to me. With direct hydraulic connections from the cyclic to the rotor actuators, with augmenting SCAS hydraulic actuators working independently of the main and tail rotor actuators, within a certain % of the total control throw to dampen turbulence and tailor helicopter response to pilot input. 

The fail mode of these actuators appears to just be a direct hydraulic connection, still augmented by a 'power steering' type system to lighten controls. And a loss of that assisting system will result in a direct hydraulic connection with much heavier control response. 

The only way to fully lose control over the helicopter would be to lose complete pressure in both hydraulic circuits. Hence why the Immediate Action for Dual Hyd failure is Land Immediately (if you don't land on the thing below you, you will crash).

 

As for AH-1Z vs DCS Apache. I will admit that from the outside they might appear to be very similar helicopters. But I would argue the difference in ergonomics and flight performance between the two would put it more akin to a comparison between F16 and F18, if not F18 to A10 or something similar. 

AH1Z stands out to me because of the identical(ish) cockpits, meaning its currently used with the guy in the front flying more than the guy in the back. But both cockpits retain full control over either the flight or the TSS if they choose. Its also a fair bit faster than apache, and has a more modern feeling avionics set (in my opinion). Also, lets not forget AH1Z can carry AIM-9. And its Instrument Rated!(with TACAN).

So yes, whilst it does lose certain things like the longbow and IDM. In my opinion it still outshines in other areas. Its not necessarily a better or worse helicopter. Its just different and interesting.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Swift.

[exhausted]

On 11/10/2022 at 12:58 PM, Swift. said:

I think the biggest obstacle to an AH-1Z would be the sell-ability of it. For most people it would just appear too similar to the apache. But then again, ED did bring out a Viper only a couple of years after a Hornet, and the level of difference is similar if not greater for the Cobra.

ED would need to focus on the fact that it's part of an expeditionary system, and is not related to the job or doctrine of the Apache at all. The Cobra would be marketed as flying from sea and land. A few awesome missions flying from the carrier and a good campaign would really turn the -W or -Z into a gem, since it really could be at home at literally any theater we have or will have.

Im fact if ED brought it out with a UH-1Y and the upcoming C-130, they could sell it as an "expeditionary pack," occasionally including the Hornet and Harrier.

[SkateZilla]

On 12/3/2022 at 2:41 PM, exhausted said:

ED would need to focus on the fact that it's part of an expeditionary system, and is not related to the job or doctrine of the Apache at all. The Cobra would be marketed as flying from sea and land. A few awesome missions flying from the carrier and a good campaign would really turn the -W or -Z into a gem, since it really could be at home at literally any theater we have or will have.

Im fact if ED brought it out with a UH-1Y and the upcoming C-130, they could sell it as an "expeditionary pack," occasionally including the Hornet and Harrier.

Marines Deployment on Carriers.
I'd Go for a UH-1Y  though
 

Edited December 4, 2022 by SkateZilla

[SilentSparrow]

I think the Viper and Venom early model could happen so maybe that's going to be nice

[Surfingnet]

I would defenetly buy it if it was on DCS.

[BalticDude]

I usually only fly REDFOR, however now that we have Mi-24P and soon updated Ka-50 with BS3, I support and hope to see AH-1W or other variant prior to the Z because it would add much needed variety to US line-up against Soviets in PvP scenarios. We have Persian Gulf already, so it would be perfect to have a historical Mi-24 vs. AH-1 campaign or battle scenario. Analog AH-1W or prior would be very fun and cool to see, and it would also help develop Mi-24V with the turret gunner as well. Hope We get more Helicopters in the future (and I'm sick of nothing but NATO stuff being announced, where's DEKA??)

[upyr1]

I'll be blunt if we only get one AH-1, then I want an early version to go along with our Huey. So I would welcome the Ah-1Z if we also get an older version and a newer version of the UH-1. 

[WinterH]

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

I'll be blunt if we only get one AH-1, then I want an early version to go along with our Huey. So I would welcome the Ah-1Z if we also get an older version and a newer version of the UH-1. 

Also the wrong choice  80s to early 90s, or bust, honestly. Our Huey is kinda 80s-ish anyway. No other version would add as much to DCS imo, as these would make that particular time period a lot more complete. Said period is currently possibly the best mission building area in DCS. Besides imo these variants are the most interesting in-between mix of capabilities and old-schoolness. We have no blue attack helo to fill up that niche, and Cobra is THE classic fit, both in US and international service. Also it can serve as an OPFOR bird for some Middle East scenarios as Iran had some, and even built their own unlicensed versions that they still use to this day.

Either F, or two-blade, pre-2000s W is the way to go. Otherwise, I'll say again, it's just Apache but gray, adds not much more, nay, pretty much nothing more than what Apache achieves in DCS right now. If anything, Apache is used by a lot more armed forces than a late AH-1W or even worse a Z.

Want MARINES representation? Well, said W would do it just fine, and would fit with some of the more intense scenarios they have fought in. For example, we may not have the exact right map, but it would fit just fine for a pretend Desert Shield/Desert Storm scenario. It would also fit amazingly well for late Cold War gone hot scenarios. With the ability to choose either TOWs or Hellfires, it can fit into a wide range of periods, representing other Cobras with some similarity through 70s-80s, or represent itself with hellfires from 80s-90s, all the way up to 2000s honestly. Besides, it is supposed to have more exotic options like Zunis, Sidewinders, and Sidearms afaik.

F would be more specific in being more of an 80s, at most 90s bird, and no Zunis, Sidewinders etc. But I'd still very much welcome it. It was also, apparently more power limited, so didn't like hovering too much, almost a'la Hind. Latest variant had night capability though. Also, this one would fit more options for international Cobra use, a lot more in fact.

Either would be a perfect fit for late Cold War and early post-Cold War periods, and even to a degree early GWOT, at least with W. They would also be a nice mostly analogue blue attack helicopter, and a direct counterpart to Mi-24P.

Going back to Vietnam era or forward into 2000s+ would be such a missed opportunity, limiting mission/scenario possibilities greatly in either direction, and having no direct contemporary counterpart. Finally, quite honestly, an early Cobra would be "Huey but thin", and a late one would be "Apache but on skids, and painted gray", because they would not represent a unique blend in capabilities and features compared to those.

[upyr1]

5 hours ago, WinterH said:

Also the wrong choice  80s to early 90s, or bust, honestly. Our Huey is kinda 80s-ish anyway. No other version would add as much to DCS imo, as these would make that particular time period a lot more complete. Said period is currently possibly the best mission building area in DCS. Besides imo these variants are the most interesting in-between mix of capabilities and old-schoolness. We have no blue attack helo to fill up that niche, and Cobra is THE classic fit, both in US and international service. Also it can serve as an OPFOR bird for some Middle East scenarios as Iran had some, and even built their own unlicensed versions that they still use to this day.

Either F, or two-blade, pre-2000s W is the way to go. Otherwise, I'll say again, it's just Apache but gray, adds not much more, nay, pretty much nothing more than what Apache achieves in DCS right now. If anything, Apache is used by a lot more armed forces than a late AH-1W or even worse a Z.

Want MARINES representation? Well, said W would do it just fine, and would fit with some of the more intense scenarios they have fought in. For example, we may not have the exact right map, but it would fit just fine for a pretend Desert Shield/Desert Storm scenario. It would also fit amazingly well for late Cold War gone hot scenarios. With the ability to choose either TOWs or Hellfires, it can fit into a wide range of periods, representing other Cobras with some similarity through 70s-80s, or represent itself with hellfires from 80s-90s, all the way up to 2000s honestly. Besides, it is supposed to have more exotic options like Zunis, Sidewinders, and Sidearms afaik.

F would be more specific in being more of an 80s, at most 90s bird, and no Zunis, Sidewinders etc. But I'd still very much welcome it. It was also, apparently more power limited, so didn't like hovering too much, almost a'la Hind. Latest variant had night capability though. Also, this one would fit more options for international Cobra use, a lot more in fact.

Either would be a perfect fit for late Cold War and early post-Cold War periods, and even to a degree early GWOT, at least with W. They would also be a nice mostly analogue blue attack helicopter, and a direct counterpart to Mi-24P.

Going back to Vietnam era or forward into 2000s+ would be such a missed opportunity, limiting mission/scenario possibilities greatly in either direction, and having no direct contemporary counterpart. Finally, quite honestly, an early Cobra would be "Huey but thin", and a late one would be "Apache but on skids, and painted gray", because they would not represent a unique blend in capabilities and features compared to those.

Your post is kind of confusing- you quote me when I suggested that we should have a Cobra that's contemporary to our Huey or have 2 modules for each the UH-1H and the contemporary Cobra and the Venom and Viper ) and say wrong choice and suggest we should get a  1980s version, and then state our Huey is 1980s which would mean a 1980s Cobra would be a good match 

[WinterH]

I will admit that I defaulted to assuming you've meant a Vietnam era Cobra, and constructed the rest upon that assumption  That tends to be your choice most of the time no?  After all, our UH-1H is barely more upgraded than those served in Vietnam War afaik, but in case of a Cobra, that distinction is a lot greater between a 70s one and an 80s one, thus my reaction.

 

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, WinterH said:

I will admit that I defaulted to assuming you've meant a Vietnam era Cobra, and constructed the rest upon that assumption  That tends to be your choice most of the time no?  After all, our UH-1H is barely more upgraded than those served in Vietnam War afaik, but in case of a Cobra, that distinction is a lot greater between a 70s one and an 80s one, thus my reaction.

 

In the case of the Cobra the TOW is a must have system. anyway I was thinking our Huey was a late 1970s early 1980s version and the best counter part would be the Q or S. The Q was the earliest version to have the TOW missile and may have seen service in the Vietnam war. I know the US Army deployed a handful of TOW equiped helicopters to counter the Easter offensive in 1972 I am not sure if those were the prototypes of the Q or UH-1s. The AH-1Q was declared officially operational in 1973 / 1974 and the S was an upgraded q. 

 

[WinterH]

6 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

In the case of the Cobra the TOW is a must have system. anyway I was thinking our Huey was a late 1970s early 1980s version and the best counter part would be the Q or S. The Q was the earliest version to have the TOW missile and may have seen service in the Vietnam war. I know the US Army deployed a handful of TOW equiped helicopters to counter the Easter offensive in 1972 I am not sure if those were the prototypes of the Q or UH-1s. The AH-1Q was declared officially operational in 1973 / 1974 and the S was an upgraded q.

And thus, I was somewhat right in my assumption :)! I really prefer for a single engine Cobra we don't go earlier than F personally. But I guess I'd still say a late 70s one is better than nothing, and indeed better than a 2000s+ one too, just not as much as an F would be for me. For twin engines, I'd very much prefer W, but can still be convinced with a T with TOWs.

[upyr1]

6 hours ago, WinterH said:

And thus, I was somewhat right in my assumption :)! I really prefer for a single engine Cobra we don't go earlier than F personally. But I guess I'd still say a late 70s one is better than nothing, and indeed better than a 2000s+ one too, just not as much as an F would be for me. For twin engines, I'd very much prefer W, but can still be convinced with a T with TOWs.

I figure there should be a few variatants of the Cobra. 

[Swift.]

OK, I have decided. My Cobra wishlist in order:
AH-1Z
AH-1W
AH-1T
AH-1S
AH-1Q
AH-1J
AH-1G

(Flat glass cobras are ugly, I don't want them)