Master Arm switch - ARM/SIM vs off

[Rubberduck85]

Hello,

To me it's clear the goal of SIM mode, which is to enable weapons related avionics use/interaction but ultimately preventing ordinance delivery.

But what does the current simulation of SIM offer vs leaving the switch in "off/neutral" position?

Example: Currently if i engage A-G master mode while in ARM, i get all the delivery hud simbology (ccip/ccrp/dtos) with bombs and access to WPN camera feed from mavericks or HAS for Harms. The same if i engage SIM.  But the same also in leaving the switch to "off". 

Shouldn't leaving the switch to "off" inhibit all weapons employment symbology/MFD pages, while engaging ARM/SIM enable it?

 

Regards

[Yurgon]

22 minutes ago, Rubberduck85 said:

Shouldn't leaving the switch to "off" inhibit all weapons employment symbology/MFD pages, while engaging ARM/SIM enable it?

As far as I'm aware, in real life pilots will keep Master Arm in Safe all the way to the target, and only flick it up to ARM right before weapons employment. It acts as a line of defense against accidental weapon releases. Also as far as I'm aware, "Fence In" does not include Master Arm to ARM, it'll remain safe, like I said all the way until just before the intended weapon release. Right after dropping/firing the intended weapon, the switch goes right back to safe during or just after the egress maneuver.

As far as SIM is concerned, I'm not sure about the Viper, but in the A-10C we can set up completely virtual loadouts that get counted down as if weapons were actually dropped, so every press of the pickle button shows exactly what the pilot would expect, except of course that no weapons come off the pylons and the weight distribution doesn't change.

The whole point is "train like you fight" so that pilots go through the exact same steps in training like they do in actual engagements.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Yurgon

[skywalker22]

 To boresight Mavericks on the ground you can use SIM:

 

[Dragon1-1]

SIM gives you the same weapon release symbology as ARM, whereas some things, such as the CCRP bomb fall line won't show up in SAFE. That's basically the idea behind it. It enables all symbology and powers up the weapons, but does not allow release.

For FENCE checks, AFAIK you do turn on the master arm. Remember, air to air ordnance can be needed at a moment's notice, you can't afford to wait to flip the switch while you're being jumped.

[Raptor9]

There is no unitary time when a military aircraft is Armed for munitions release. It depends heavily on the tactical situation, the mission, and may even come down to individual unit-dictated procedures or aircrew preference.

Like so many aspects of military operations and procedures, it is always "it depends."

[AvroLanc]

SIM mode is not modelled in DCS. It adds ‘SIM’ to the HUD. That is all. Cosmetic.

Of course in real life it’s connected to the weapons symbology displays and video WPN page display etc. But none of that logic has been added. 

[Rubberduck85]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

SIM gives you the same weapon release symbology as ARM, whereas some things, such as the CCRP bomb fall line won't show up in SAFE. That's basically the idea behind it. It enables all symbology and powers up the weapons, but does not allow release.

For FENCE checks, AFAIK you do turn on the master arm. Remember, air to air ordnance can be needed at a moment's notice, you can't afford to wait to flip the switch while you're being jumped.

So the current functionality of SAFE is not correct due to that fact that shows the simbology?

[AvroLanc]

15 minutes ago, Rubberduck85 said:

So the current functionality of SAFE is not correct due to that fact that shows the simbology?

Correct. SAFE should not show any CCRP/DLZ/Missile information, either AA or AG. WPN video should not show in SAFE either. 
That symbology is only shown in ARM/SIM. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by AvroLanc

[_SteelFalcon_]

i think currently the only thing not showing when on SAFE is the Gun pipper in STRF mode. the rest seems all there

[bukizzzz]

Does anyone know whether our block (or any) should have the ability to add simulated weapons? Is it done through the DTC? 

[Aquorys]

7 hours ago, Rubberduck85 said:

But what does the current simulation of SIM offer vs leaving the switch in "off/neutral" position?

Long story short, SAFE is more like SIM in DCS, and SIM isn't implemented. Typical real life procedures involve switching to SIM and perfoming a weapons systems check sometime on the way to a combat area, followed by a fence check where it's switched to ARM before entering the combat area.

[Rubberduck85]

@BIGNEWY  @NineLine  the logic of the Master Arm / off / SIM in the current implementation is apparently incomplete, is this a W.I.P.? Are the devs going to revisit it?

Thanks!

[BIGNEWY]

20 minutes ago, Rubberduck85 said:

@BIGNEWY  @NineLine  the logic of the Master Arm / off / SIM in the current implementation is apparently incomplete, is this a W.I.P.? Are the devs going to revisit it?

Thanks!

Please PM me public evidence showing it should be different

thank you

[QuiGon]

Is SIM mode on the F-16 also supposed to remove weapons from the SMS page upon simulated release, like the SIM/TRAIN mode does on the A-10C? Or is this not a thing on the Viper?

Edited November 18, 2022 by QuiGon

[Rubberduck85]

6 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please PM me public evidence showing it should be different

thank you

@BIGNEWY sent you a PM as requested.

 

Regards

[ASAP]

On 11/17/2022 at 8:14 AM, Yurgon said:

As far as I'm aware, in real life pilots will keep Master Arm in Safe all the way to the target, and only flick it up to ARM right before weapons employment. It acts as a line of defense against accidental weapon releases. Also as far as I'm aware, "Fence In" does not include Master Arm to ARM.

Talking to real life pilots, both in combat and on the range they fence in with the master switch set to arm. There are some ranges I’ve heard of in Europe that have a range regulation that the switch must be safe until just prior to roll in but that is the exception from everything I’ve heard. 

the protection measure to avoid dropping a bomb inadvertently is to keep your finger away from the pickle. I have heard from viper guys specifically that they will not go to guns mode until just prior to shooting the gun and they switch out of it ASAP like you said though

[Yurgon]

3 hours ago, ASAP said:

Talking to real life pilots, both in combat and on the range they fence in with the master switch set to arm. There are some ranges I’ve heard of in Europe that have a range regulation that the switch must be safe until just prior to roll in but that is the exception from everything I’ve heard. 

I thought I‘d read from several US pilots that they only set Master Arm to ARM right before pickle. I also recall pilots talking about off-dry passes (in training) because they forgot to set Master Arm to arm during their first attack. If my memory doesn‘t entirely fail me, some of these were talked about in the Fighter Pilot Podcast (but I don‘t remember which episodes or which guests). 

But I also heard references of doing it exactly like you described. So far I‘m unable to say whether this is service-dependent or squadron-dependent or era-dependent. I guess in the end it depends.

In my virtual squad, we set Master Arm to ARM during fence-in, but I actually thought we‘d taken a bit of a liberty there. Good to know we‘re apparently doing it right.

If I come across another reference I‘ll link it here. 

[ASAP]

That might also depend on airframe. I know A-10 pilots will fly around with a hot gun all day. Where as the viper guys I’ve talked to won’t do that. That also may have something to do with the fact that the viper uses the trigger to fire the laser. Different Airframes are wired different and may have different cultures I guess

Edited November 20, 2022 by ASAP

[Dragon1-1]

It depends on the airframe, and what other safeties are there. In the F-14, master arm is a part of FENCE checklist, and AFAIK this is the same for the Viper and A-10. I think the Harrier arms up right before or during roll in, but I'm not sure. The Viggen is outright designed to arm the trigger right before the drop and safe it immediately after, and for that purpose the "master arm" is on the stick. 

[norman99]

My squad's arming SOP is to leave it SAFE at FENCE-in. We simulate navy ops however, and whilst we have access to both current & past RL Hornet guys, I guess it may still vary depending where you are.

For A/G, after getting the last picture call and confirming the target is clear, typically at or just approaching the IP, we switch to ARM. This is done when the strike leader calls "Attack".

For A/A, after taking a commit on the current A/A picture, the flight lead will call "check tapes, master ARM", and that's when we switch it to ARM.

I'd be lying if I said in the heat of the moment, I've never forgotten to switch to ARM.....

Edited November 21, 2022 by norman99

[Rubberduck85]

Guys/girls can we stay on topic?

This was started to understand the difference, avionics-wise, between master arm/off/sim and understand if DCS: F-16 simulates correctly.

It is not a post for sharing individual/squadron/real/realistic/anecdotal SOPs on master arm, even if they are truly interesting!

Thanks 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Rubberduck85

[AvroLanc]

3 hours ago, Rubberduck85 said:

Guys/girls can we stay on topic?

This was started to understand the difference, avionics-wise, between master arm/off/sim and understand if DCS: F-16 simulates correctly.

It is not a post for sharing individual/squadron/real/realistic/anecdotal SOPs on master arm, even if they are truly interesting!

Thanks 

 

I think we’ve established that DCS hasn’t got it correct.

The correct functionality is outlined in a couple of easily found docs online, but it’s a bit of an effort to detail the specifics in a forum post. 

I imagine someone will need to PM ED to highlight again the details though….for whoever feels up to it. 

[Rubberduck85]

11 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

I imagine someone will need to PM ED to highlight again the details though….for whoever feels up to it. 

 

On 11/18/2022 at 8:38 PM, Rubberduck85 said:

@BIGNEWY sent you a PM as requested.

 

Regards

This was done last week, let's see ED's reply.

[Dragon1-1]

23 hours ago, Rubberduck85 said:

This was started to understand the difference, avionics-wise, between master arm/off/sim and understand if DCS: F-16 simulates correctly.

This was already answered. It doesn't, and the difference should be far more significant than it is. SIM is like ARM, but inhibits weapon release. SAFE does not show several pieces of symbology that the others do.

[AlexCaboose]

On 11/19/2022 at 8:25 PM, Yurgon said:

I thought I‘d read from several US pilots that they only set Master Arm to ARM right before pickle. I also recall pilots talking about off-dry passes (in training) because they forgot to set Master Arm to arm during their first attack. If my memory doesn‘t entirely fail me, some of these were talked about in the Fighter Pilot Podcast (but I don‘t remember which episodes or which guests). 

But I also heard references of doing it exactly like you described. So far I‘m unable to say whether this is service-dependent or squadron-dependent or era-dependent. I guess in the end it depends.

In my virtual squad, we set Master Arm to ARM during fence-in, but I actually thought we‘d taken a bit of a liberty there. Good to know we‘re apparently doing it right.

If I come across another reference I‘ll link it here. 

I think this is also a difference in service branch as well. I believe the USAF doesn't have switch changes at the range and the Navy will flip the switch before drop. I might have them reversed, but I believe Mover covered this in his CAS video.