reported earlier AIM-120 can still be defeated by barrel rolls at high altitudes

[Nealius]

Not even barrel rolls or high altitude, AI will rock their wings at low altitude and low energy states, and AMRAAMs fired within No Escape Zone will fly right past them without fusing. 

Edited March 12, 2024 by Nealius

[Notarobot]

So, this is an unsolvable issue or something?
It's affecting multiplayer in a pretty bad way especially recently as it seems 'the word got out' 

Edited March 24, 2024 by Notarobot

[MRTX]

Bump!

I just got stomped by a M2K with all of the AMRAAM's I fired getting trashed by the M2K's roll and jam BS.

[ruxtmp]

I stopped using all US radar missiles as their pk is about equivalent to early 1960s stuff.

[RPY Variable]

https://streamable.com/rxerze

[ruxtmp]

Standard defense against an Aim-120 in game aside from the notch.

[falcon_120]

I dont see anything wrong in that clip, it seems the missile was already low on energy; or rather the bandit was very high on speed, and the barrel roll depleted that energy even further. 

For me that is not a good example of a game/missile problem, different case would have been some head on barrel rolls that completely confuse the missile or do not trigger the fuze, when the missile still had plenty of energy to deal with the target.

[plaiskool]

On 4/6/2024 at 2:02 AM, ruxtmp said:

I stopped using all US radar missiles as their pk is about equivalent to early 1960s stuff.

Broooo have you tried the R77?

[ruxtmp]

I only fly US planes so no I have not tried the R77. If you are saying Russian missiles have the same issues I would have to check and see but anecdotally they seem to generally track targets at least slightly more reliably.

[falcon_120]

I only fly US planes so no I have not tried the R77. If you are saying Russian missiles have the same issues I would have to check and see but anecdotally they seem to generally track targets at least slightly more reliably.

Sorry no, all misiles in dcs, for sure all fox 3 suffer from similar problems. So if you stop playing because you think US fox 3 are worse than they should, the reds are not in a better spot.

All misiles use now the ED missile API with its same limitations and strength equally shared. As far as i know kinematics changes between misiles as well as the CCMs factor (CMS resistance) but they all use the "same radar" and proportional navigation logic so to speak, so barrel rolls and jamming gremlins will be the same for all.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Default774]

5 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

Sorry no, all misiles in dcs, for sure all fox 3 suffer from similar problems. So if you stop playing because you think US fox 3 are worse than they should, the reds are not in a better spot.

All misiles use now the ED missile API with its same limitations and strength equally shared. As far as i know kinematics changes between misiles as well as the CCMs factor (CMS resistance) but they all use the "same radar" and proportional navigation logic so to speak, so barrel rolls and jamming gremlins will be the same for all.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk
 

This is not entirely correct. The AIM-120 works significantly differently from the other ARH missiles.  For one, it has completely different seeker/guidance simulations with more realistic limitations. The flight model on the 120 is also significantly more complex. 

Comparing the 120 to anything that is not on amraam2 scheme is rather pointless. All older ARH missiles are using simplified physics and seekers.

All missiles in the game suffer from barrel rolling in some capacity, the 120 is more heavily affected than others. 

 

Edited April 25, 2024 by Default774

[ruxtmp]

6 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

Sorry no, all misiles in dcs, for sure all fox 3 suffer from similar problems. So if you stop playing because you think US fox 3 are worse than they should, the reds are not in a better spot.

All misiles use now the ED missile API with its same limitations and strength equally shared. As far as i know kinematics changes between misiles as well as the CCMs factor (CMS resistance) but they all use the "same radar" and proportional navigation logic so to speak, so barrel rolls and jamming gremlins will be the same for all.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk
 

I am not sure how bad the R77 is but if it uses the same code I would say its not very good either to those using it. I just stopped flying missions with air to air. With the generally poor AI and poor ATA missile performance it is just less frustrating to fly single player ATG attack missions. SAM missiles do not seem to suffer from the same tracking issues from what I can see.

[Ahogephilia]

5 hours ago, ruxtmp said:

I am not sure how bad the R77 is but if it uses the same code I would say its not very good either to those using it. I just stopped flying missions with air to air. With the generally poor AI and poor ATA missile performance it is just less frustrating to fly single player ATG attack missions. SAM missiles do not seem to suffer from the same tracking issues from what I can see.

 

I've been thinking DCS as "(Military) Flight Simulator" for a few years now,

so my focus is on the execution of Procedures and Formation flight

 

PVE Mission? The AIs don't understand their mission at all and their behavior in A2A engagements is very disappointing. 

PVP? The bad notching model shows no sign of being fixed, and AWACS doesn't seem to know any scale other than BRAA. 

A2G is a bit better, although MP servers end up using only Autolase.

 

As a result, tactics disappear and there is only "Air-Quake" and YouTube contents ...

[Notarobot]

On 4/26/2024 at 1:07 AM, Default774 said:

This is not entirely correct. The AIM-120 works significantly differently from the other ARH missiles.  For one, it has completely different seeker/guidance simulations with more realistic limitations. The flight model on the 120 is also significantly more complex. 

Comparing the 120 to anything that is not on amraam2 scheme is rather pointless. All older ARH missiles are using simplified physics and seekers.

All missiles in the game suffer from barrel rolling in some capacity, the 120 is more heavily affected than others. 

 

 

Most of the time you just need to put some a little g force on the roll axle . Rocking your wings with a touch of push or pull on the stick will send the aim120 in a spasm. 
I understand multiplayer is just a fraction of the player base but this exploit is spreading fast. 
Not even doing full barrel rolls anymore in order to conceil it on the tacview or make it hard to prove. 

The aim120 can not be THAT easily defeated head on at 30k atltidude ... can someone fix this even with some brute force method or something?
Watching tacview or F6 in multiplayer is actually benny hill theme material. 

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

1 hour ago, Notarobot said:

Most of the time you just need to put some a little g force on the roll axle . Rocking your wings with a touch of push or pull on the stick will send the aim120 in a spasm. 
I understand multiplayer is just a fraction of the player base but this exploit is spreading fast. 
Not even doing full barrel rolls anymore in order to conceil it on the tacview or make it hard to prove. 

The aim120 can not be THAT easily defeated head on at 30k atltidude ... can someone fix this even with some brute force method or something?
Watching tacview or F6 in multiplayer is actually benny hill theme material. 

Until ED fixes this (which may never happen) it’s unfortunately up to us to be the police and report this stuff to the server admins. Long bans then need to be issued. That’s the only way this issue is going to get fixed at this point. 

Edited June 29, 2024 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[ruxtmp]

I dont think ED is going to fix any of this anytime soon if ever. Good thing is I've been flying more at the local glider club instead of playing this game. Too many ongoing issues and incomplete modules with very slow updates to make it enjoyable anymore.

[Irisz]

On 4/26/2024 at 7:42 AM, Ahogephilia said:

 

I've been thinking DCS as "(Military) Flight Simulator" for a few years now,

so my focus is on the execution of Procedures and Formation flight

 

PVE Mission? The AIs don't understand their mission at all and their behavior in A2A engagements is very disappointing. 

PVP? The bad notching model shows no sign of being fixed, and AWACS doesn't seem to know any scale other than BRAA. 

A2G is a bit better, although MP servers end up using only Autolase.

 

As a result, tactics disappear and there is only "Air-Quake" and YouTube contents ...

This phenomenon that you call a problem with missiles has been like this for 10+ years. If you fly at a high altitude, the air is not as dense and the missile can maneuver less. If you fly more and practice, sooner or later you will realize that with the high altitude you have to increase your speed in order to have enough compensation in this regard.

BVR air combat is not about firing 1 missile and the opponent dies. It is important to learn the missile launch distances, what a missile launched from different distances can and cannot do!

I see many players whose knowledge is such that if the AMRAAM is in launch range, they can launch it and that's it, nothing more! If you start dealing with the non maneuvering target range and the no escape zone launch distance, you will be more successful. If you understand what happens when you are at such distances, you can be a more dangerous opponent, not just a player who got on the American train because the American Air Force is the best in the world. This is true, but you have to learn to use this potential, not just be a passenger on a train!

The bottom line is that as long as you launch the AMRAAM missile from a non maneuvering target range, you can only scare the enemy, nothing more. As soon as you have no escape zone launch distance from the enemy, the AMRAAM will engage the target and the chance of the MANEUVERING TARGET being destroyed is maximized!

That's why I like Flanker better, because it's better to play with it, you can control the opponent better, because the launch of the FOX 1 and FOX 3 missiles is indicated by the opponent's RWR!

Learn that you control what happens, don't let the opponent control you!

It should also be taken into account that this is a game, not real life, and if a game is too difficult, not many people will play it!

Edited June 30, 2024 by Irisz

[Notarobot]

oh stop i've been playing this since it was called LOMAC
PLEASE don't give lessons ok?

Go to the beginning of this thread and watch the videos before lecturing

 

 

https://streamable.com/yf3mrd

Edited June 30, 2024 by Notarobot

[Hobel]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Notarobot:

oh stop i've been playing this since it was called LOMAC
PLEASE don't give lessons ok?

Go to the beginning of this thread and watch the videos before lecturing

 

 

https://streamable.com/yf3mrd

 

when is the streamable video from?

the YT video is 3 months old and there have been several updates in the meantime.

Basically
-wobble fix
-PF was increased from 7 to 9m

The wobble fix in particular is very important, as the Missle often wobbles to the dead or wobbles past the target.

left after the fix

 

so the YT scene might already look different now.

therefore and due to the fact that there were some fixes new tracks would be helpful.

 

 

 

 

[Pavlin_33]

21 minutes ago, Notarobot said:

oh stop i've been playing this since it was called LOMAC
PLEASE don't give lessons ok?

Go to the beginning of this thread and watch the videos before lecturing

 

 

https://streamable.com/yf3mrd

 

Any chance for a track? I am very curious. I find the 120 very difficult to dodge, but yet again maybe there's some exploit out there that I know nothig about.

Edited June 30, 2024 by Pavlin_33

[Notarobot]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17NYFkn56HVNGp8twCd-cls5Rb9HM_hwI

Here's about a 100 tacviews if information is needed about aim 120 behaviour. I haven't flown in a few weeks and i can't sift through it right now. If anyone is bored have a look. 

 

[Hobel]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Notarobot:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17NYFkn56HVNGp8twCd-cls5Rb9HM_hwI

Here's about a 100 tacviews if information is needed about aim 120 behaviour. I haven't flown in a few weeks and i can't sift through it right now. If anyone is bored have a look. 

 

I also see an enormous number of user errors... hardly anyone knows what they are doing.
specific examples would be helpful

i am also on the server from time to time and always shoot my missles at 40-55nm and have a good PK.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2024 by Hobel

[okopanja]

29 minutes ago, Notarobot said:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17NYFkn56HVNGp8twCd-cls5Rb9HM_hwI

Here's about a 100 tacviews if information is needed about aim 120 behaviour. I haven't flown in a few weeks and i can't sift through it right now. If anyone is bored have a look. 

 

just attach your original tacview, since server deleted it already. You can find file name in your own video.

[Irisz]

18 hours ago, Notarobot said:

oh stop i've been playing this since it was called LOMAC
PLEASE don't give lessons ok?

Go to the beginning of this thread and watch the videos before lecturing

 

 

https://streamable.com/yf3mrd

 

Video 1: I don't see a mistake, the missile faces a lot of dipole charges, which is huge and the dipole charge was actually invented for this!

Video 2: You launch the missile at the target at 90 degrees and the spamming of the dipole charge is also a decisive factor in this situation! It would be nice to see the entire air combat sortie, the missile launch in the HUD view and follow the missile. It is possible that you launch the missile at the border of the no escape zone, instead of waiting a bit with a lot of reserve and giving the missile an adequate reserve to defeat the target.

At 90 degrees, we don't launch a missile unless we are aware that there are several missiles we can launch to defeat the opponent, not relying on just one missile, waiting for 1 button press 1 kill, which is a mistake!

The whole missile launch happens at a disadvantage because you are not at the same altitude as the opponent, this missile launch situation is an ideal situation for an R-27ET missile, not against an opponent flying similar to a 90 degree notch maneuver!

Check out this try hard training, how all missiles can be defeated with a simple barrel roll! This is also true in reality, the barrel roll is the most effective missile exhausting and evasive maneuver!

Edited July 1, 2024 by Irisz

[Hobel]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Irisz:

how all missiles can be defeated with a simple barrel roll! This is also true in reality

kinematically yes, but here there would be even more aspects to add some missles that have irl 100meter PF have only 20m in DCS, of course there is then a role effective.

the same with the Aim120 in DCS, the PF is only 9 meters.

theoretically the missle has more than enough information to know whether it will hit or not, for example if the missle is 30-50 meters or more behind the target and has a negative approach speed, it will explode and at least throw fragments towards the target.

On the one hand, the missle wants to kill the target, on the other hand, the weapon is disarmed and does not simply fly towards the ground and probably still hits uninvolved parties, similar to a roll, the missle would detonate and thus at least still cause damage.