Aim-120 proximity fuze too low

[Moonshine]

so in the game files the proximity fuze is set to 7m (roughly 23feet)

yet according to page 159 (11-7) in the p-825 manual, the radius should be 50 feet (15.25m)

Edited January 9, 2023 by Moonshine

[BlackPixxel]

That is not what is written in that document.

The document says that the kill radius (damage from warhead) is 50 ft.

Edited January 12, 2023 by BlackPixxel

[Moonshine]

while what you say is true, the Kill distance in the same lua file is set to 15 (i guess thats meters) and is most likely the diameter. and if the kill radius is 50ft (roughly 15m) according to that document, then DCS has cut that in half. as i guess everybody understands that radius is only half the diameter...

Edited January 12, 2023 by Moonshine

[Ironhand]

1 hour ago, Moonshine said:

the Kill distance in the same lua file is set to 15 (i guess thats meters) and is most likely the diameter. and if the kill radius is 50ft (roughly 15m) according to that document, then DCS has cut that in half. as i guess everybody understands that radius is only half the diameter...

Ummm…since it’s an ABF warhead, wouldn’t the kill radius also be the kill distance? Anything within 15 meters distance of the warhead blast would be “killed”.

[Moonshine]

Might also be the case. Maybe its just that proxy fuse is completely missing from multiplayer. Otherwise i dont know how to explain an aim 120 that is actively tracking, which misses by 10 or so feet due to maneuvering (or the famous barrel roll evasive tactic), without detonating in the process. And i dont think it would just be a dsync/netcode thing.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Moonshine

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb BlackPixxel:

That is not what is written in that document.

The document says that the kill radius (damage from warhead) is 50 ft.

 

The kill radius is 15m as stated in the document, which is an area where the aircraft is likely to be severely damaged or destroyed, so it also means the proximity fuze range.
also the damage would go beyond 15m in DCS this is also the case
so why make the PF smaller than the kill radius?

 

In addition, other weapons are also listed in the document.

for example Aim7, where the killing radius is given as 40ft/12m.
and we know from other documents, the word Proximity Fuse is used there, which is also given there again with 40ft/12m

 

and in other luas of DCS it is similar.

Aim7 Kill Radius 12   proximity fuze 12
SD10 Kill Radius 11   proximity fuze 11
for some weapons only Kill Radius is written in the Lua but this is also the PF ingame.

[okopanja]

On 1/12/2023 at 11:22 PM, Hobel said:

so why make the PF smaller than the kill radius?

Perhaps, because it is desirable to have the target inside radius. That is main reason why we rarely have survival of the missile hits in DCS.

Detonating missile at border distance would mean 50% of survival which is not what we observe in game.

Again these considerations are for games only. IRL they are satisfied even with damage, although modern missiles frequently aim for direct hits.

[Hobel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb okopanja:

Perhaps, because it is desirable to have the target inside radius. That is main reason why we rarely have survival of the missile hits in DCS.

Detonating missile at border distance would mean 50% of survival which is not what we observe in game.

Again these considerations are for games only. IRL they are satisfied even with damage, although modern missiles frequently aim for direct hits.

That would be the case over 15 meters, within 15 is specified kill radius

 

In my latest tests, the aim120 in dcs world has a fairly safe kill radius of 15m.  

The higher this distance is +15 the less damage is done. 

50% chances of survival would also be possible, depending on where the missile explodes. 

So the explosive power of the missile is easily able to destroy a plane at 15m in dcs. 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Hobel

[okopanja]

I think that this value is only used to trigger the actual damage model processing, but I might be also wrong.

[Moonshine]

I dont get your logic, all weapons are implemented the same way, having kill zone and proxy fuze radius set to the same number except the aim120, which has it cut in half…

[Hobel]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb okopanja:

I think that this value is only used to trigger the actual damage model processing, but I might be also wrong.

Test it out and evaluate what you see. 

Put an f18 or whatever on the ground and try to make an aim120 hit the ground at 10,15,20,~30m Distance.

Depending on how far away the explosion is, the damage will be different.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Hobel

[okopanja]

4 minutes ago, Hobel said:

Test it out and evaluate what you see. 

Put an f18 or whatever on the ground and try to make an aim120 hit the ground ~30m. 

Depending on how far away the explosion is, the damage will be different.

What I think it happens is that simple spherical processing takes place before actual damage calculation, which at the end leads to decision dead/hit.

But again difficult to test, anyway lets wait for feedback...

[Default774]

From a bit of testing there is a lot of improvement to be had with a higher proximity fuse setting. A 15m proximity fuse is fairly safe with our current warhead. Stealing @vtaf_archer 's barrel rolling track from another post and replaying it with a 15m instead of 7m proximity fuse makes the missile hit in this case instead of having a near miss.

7m prox: https://streamable.com/yx62kq
15m prox: https://streamable.com/iy8ym3

120_vs_barrel.trk

Taking one of my older tracks which results in a miss with the 7m proximity fuse, it now also hits with a 15m proximity fuse.

7m prox: https://streamable.com/9ndhts
15m prox: https://streamable.com/5zo7z5

120_barrelroll_HALFRANGE.trk

You might run into problems when dealing with modules with more robust damage models (F-14, Mig21) however I don't own these modules so cannot really test this in practise. When testing with the mirage f1 (reasonably tough damage model, often "survives" missile hits) I didn't run into any problems.

[Hobel]

Very good thanks. 

 

 

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Default774:

You might run into problems when dealing with modules with more robust damage models (F-14, Mig21) however I don't own these modules so cannot really test this in practise. When testing with the mirage f1 (reasonably tough damage model, often "survives" missile hits) I didn't run into any problems.

But why should that be a problem, better damage than none or?

[Default774]

The missile might explode too far away from the target to do critical damage with a higher proximity fuse setting. F-14s can already occasionally survive AIM-120 hits.

[Hobel]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Default774:

The missile might explode too far away from the target to do critical damage with a higher proximity fuse setting. F-14s can already occasionally survive AIM-120 hits.

Yes, but that's still better than when the missle just misses.

 

[Default774]

I agree

[Pavlin_33]

Also this value should be dynamic. Damage won't be the same at sea-level or at altitude, if the missile is maneuvring or not, etc...

[Mareno]

Seems like ED missed this thread
@BIGNEWY

[BIGNEWY]

I will mention it to the team but it may conflict with other public data. 

thanks

[Moonshine]

id be very interested in that "other publicly available data" as the only one i found after long searches is the one mentioned in my original post. this one also includes the values for other missiles like the aim7, for which the lua data in our game files exactly matches the values in the mentioned document, not so much the 120 as the ONLY missile that has different values in the game files

even the "very specific navy publication" (dont know if its still allowed to mention its true name) states that the aim 120s explosive power is larger than the one of the aim-7 even though it has a smaller explosive mass than the aim-7

 

edit:

that navy publication says that the AIM-120 is using a 50 pound warhead that explodes into thousands of fragments. even though it is approximately 30% smaller than the warhead of the AIM-7M, the 120 is using higher density gases to propel fragments more explosively than the aim-7.

 

edit 2: since the document is publicly available under: https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-825.pdf, page 158/159

 

according to the ED gamefiles, even the aim-9 has the higher proximity fuze setting than the 120, this defies every logic

Edited February 9, 2023 by Moonshine

[Moonshine]

any chance you could post that public document you mentioned @BIGNEWY? id love to have a look at it. 

[skywalker22]

bumping this thread a bit...

[ACS_Dev]

I maintain a library of dumps from select DCS files for every patch that I compare as new ones come out. Comparison of this patch and February's suggests that ED increased the proximity detonation distance of the AIM-120 from 7 to 9 meters, an increase of more than 25%.

This was not in the official patch notes so I would take this with a grain of salt, however I am getting these dumps directly from system memory. I have attached the files from the last two updates, refer to line 367.

AIM_120C_April.lua AIM120C_Feb.lua

[Hobel]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb ACS_Dev:

I maintain a library of dumps from select DCS files for every patch that I compare as new ones come out. Comparison of this patch and February's suggests that ED increased the proximity detonation distance of the AIM-120 from 7 to 9 meters, an increase of more than 25%.

This was not in the official patch notes so I would take this with a grain of salt, however I am getting these dumps directly from system memory. I have attached the files from the last two updates, refer to line 367.

AIM_120C_April.lua 14.38 kB · 2 Downloads AIM120C_Feb.lua 14.38 kB · 1 Download

from the pure testing of the last version there are 2 new main features that I have observed.

-9m PF
-less wobble(Significantly less)

Less wobble roughly means that the missle no longer makes extremely hectic movements when it loses a target and Lock it up again, it is now much smoother, thus saves energy and leads more cleanly to the target

here i one scenario:
in this example the AIm120 loses the F16 in the notch and changes to a new target, the change is now very smooth, as you can see the Old missle was always thrown around

Left New.                                                          

 

Unfortunately, I haven't gotten around to testing it in detail yet, but from what I've seen so far, it's already a small Aim-120 revolution for me.
the wobbling has caused a lot of misses i'm looking forward to the future tacview evaluations!

 

 

 

Edited April 12 by Hobel