Patch notes discussion thread 25th January 2023

[Pride37]

23 hours ago, Thinder said:

mirror is unreadable with high level of pixelation and blur

Hi Thinder, the way you describe it (and according to your picture) seems the normal mirror render when set to off in the M2000C. I may be wrong, but just click on it and please report back if it changed anything.

[Thinder]

1 minute ago, Pride37 said:

Hi Thinder, the way you describe it (and according to your picture) seems the normal mirror render when set to off in the M2000C. I may be wrong, but just click on it and please report back if it changed anything.

I'll do that, thanks!

[Dragon1-1]

Looks like that's it, people. The next update is scheduled a full month away, with a 1+ month gap from the previous one. That can only mean... multicore is going in!

That, or winter holidays. Still, it's unusual for them to announce it this early, and to have such a large gap planned. I expect delays, but if that's what it takes to get multicore out of the door, I'm for it.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[MadKreator]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Looks like that's it, people. The next update is scheduled a full month away, with a 1+ month gap from the previous one. That can only mean... multicore is going in!

That, or winter holidays. Still, it's unusual for them to announce it this early, and to have such a large gap planned. I expect delays, but if that's what it takes to get multicore out of the door, I'm for it.

 

That was my first thought as well. We will have to wait and see, but I’m keeping my fingers crossed! 

[Gunfreak]

10 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Looks like that's it, people. The next update is scheduled a full month away, with a 1+ month gap from the previous one. That can only mean... multicore is going in!

That, or winter holidays. Still, it's unusual for them to announce it this early, and to have such a large gap planned. I expect delays, but if that's what it takes to get multicore out of the door, I'm for it.

 

Might also be to get ready for F15 release  pre-order in two days. So a little under a month to get the F15 into the game and working properly. 

[Dragon1-1]

That's probably a lucky coincidence, though, modules rarely held up the schedule before, and never for so long (at least as far as I remember). I would expect to see the Mudhen to drop at that point, though. A month is plenty of time for the final polishing.

[St4rgun]

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Looks like that's it, people. The next update is scheduled a full month away, with a 1+ month gap from the previous one. That can only mean... multicore is going in!

That, or winter holidays. Still, it's unusual for them to announce it this early, and to have such a large gap planned. I expect delays, but if that's what it takes to get multicore out of the door, I'm for it.

 

After those years of waiting I still don't dare to raise my expectations... That means one thing for sure: NO PATCH IN FEBRUARY, and that's all. Any other is pure speculation.

But I'm also eagerly waiting for MT and even more the newly announced DLSS. Fingers crossed.

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, I was joking here a bit, but you have to admit, they wouldn't do that without a very good reason. In fact, it's newsworthy enough if a patch is announced a week in advance, since they usually update the patch thread a day or two before it actually drops, if that. So we have a reason to expect something big is coming out. Bigger than a module, even. 

Admittedly, it could be DC, but I don't see that happening before MT does. In fact, out of all the candidates for "something big", MT is simply the best fit. Maybe we'll find out more on friday.

[St4rgun]

DLSS would be really important for us, VR users for getting proper AA and having performance boost at the same time. I already asked @BIGNEWY before but I think he was to busy to answer if DLSS could be implemented in the existing graphic engine (without Vulkan of course), or is that somehow related to future versions. I'm really curious how long should be wait for it.

Given the fact that the 2023 and beyond trailer used MT and DLSS in the making implies that those technologies COULD be at a proper level to reach OB in the near future, but anything unforseen can happen anytime.

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, St4rgun said:

DLSS would be really important for us, VR users for getting proper AA and having performance boost at the same time. I already asked @BIGNEWY before but I think he was to busy to answer if DLSS could be implemented in the existing graphic engine (without Vulkan of course), or is that somehow related to future versions. I'm really curious how long should be wait for it.

Given the fact that the 2023 and beyond trailer used MT and DLSS in the making implies that those technologies COULD be at a proper level to reach OB in the near future, but anything unforseen can happen anytime.

We are very close with multithreading and testing continues, DLSS will be in a future build also, but it will all depend on test results.  

[Qiou87]

35 minutes ago, St4rgun said:

DLSS would be really important for us, VR users for getting proper AA and having performance boost at the same time.

I think you need to manage your expectations. DLSS can be tried in VR in the popular civilian sim (it's on their subscription if you just want to try it for a low price and see for yourself) and it basically is a mess at least in my experience but I also saw it reflected in many comments : limited performance improvements (probably due to CPU bottleneck -> this is why we will first have some multithreading in DCS), huge degradation of readability for the dials and screens. I also encountered more artifacts that I do when using DLSS on pancake, which could be related with the fact that the prediction algorithm has a hard time to adapt to multiple axis and constant movement due to head tracking, but also with the fact that some of the scene (cockpit) is static while the world moves, sometimes at high speed, through the cockpit windows.

I am eager to try out DLSS in DCS and I sincerely hope their implementation is better. But I will not expect a big improvement for VR based on my experience.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Qiou87

[MadKreator]

16 minutes ago, Qiou87 said:

I think you need to manage your expectations. DLSS can be tried in VR in the popular civilian sim (it's on their subscription if you just want to try it for a low price and see for yourself) and it basically is a mess at least in my experience but I also saw it reflected in many comments : limited performance improvements (probably due to CPU bottleneck -> this is why we will first have some multithreading in DCS), huge degradation of readability for the dials and screens. I also encountered more artifacts that I do when using DLSS on pancake, which could be related with the fact that the prediction algorithm has a hard time to adapt to multiple axis and constant movement due to head tracking, but also with the fact that some of the scene (cockpit) is static while the world moves, sometimes at high speed, through the cockpit windows.

I am eager to try out DLSS in DCS and I sincerely hope their implementation is better. But I will not expect a big improvement for VR based on my experience.

 

I had a similar experience in that civil sim, DLSS may have performed slightly better, but the visuals on gauges and things were much worse than  running with dlss off with TAA. In 2d it was not as big of a factor. I think DLSS with be great for the right system but maybe not for everyone. Time will tell.

[St4rgun]

1 hour ago, Qiou87 said:

I think you need to manage your expectations. DLSS can be tried in VR in the popular civilian sim (it's on their subscription if you just want to try it for a low price and see for yourself) and it basically is a mess at least in my experience but I also saw it reflected in many comments : limited performance improvements (probably due to CPU bottleneck -> this is why we will first have some multithreading in DCS), huge degradation of readability for the dials and screens. I also encountered more artifacts that I do when using DLSS on pancake, which could be related with the fact that the prediction algorithm has a hard time to adapt to multiple axis and constant movement due to head tracking, but also with the fact that some of the scene (cockpit) is static while the world moves, sometimes at high speed, through the cockpit windows.

I am eager to try out DLSS in DCS and I sincerely hope their implementation is better. But I will not expect a big improvement for VR based on my experience.

 

 

41 minutes ago, MadKreator said:

I had a similar experience in that civil sim, DLSS may have performed slightly better, but the visuals on gauges and things were much worse than  running with dlss off with TAA. In 2d it was not as big of a factor. I think DLSS with be great for the right system but maybe not for everyone. Time will tell.

Right now I"m actually exclusively using DLSS in MSFS because it's massively better than anything else, altough I had to spend quite amount of time to set it correctly:

• apply OpenXR Toolkit's fixed foveated rendering
• set the resolution higher (or much higher) than the native resolution of the headset - for my G2 I set it to 3500x3500, or even 4000x4000 to have very crisp dials and screens despite of DLSS

I know it's unbelievable at first but it's really good, only certainly not with default settings. Worth a try.

I'm pretty sure that if DLSS would be worse in VR than the currently available MSAA in DCS then ED would not have spent the development resources to implement it nor state it publicly that this technology will be supported. As they said for years that ED will not use any proprietary technology I'm sure they made all the preliminary test implementations to get to this decision.

[Jafergon]

14 minutes ago, St4rgun said:

 

Right now I"m actually exclusively using DLSS in MSFS because it's massively better than anything else, altough I had to spend quite amount of time to set it correctly:

• apply OpenXR Toolkit's fixed foveated rendering
• set the resolution higher (or much higher) than the native resolution of the headset - for my G2 I set it to 3500x3500, or even 4000x4000 to have very crisp dials and screens despite of DLSS

I know it's unbelievable at first but it's really good, only certainly not with default settings. Worth a try.

I'm pretty sure that if DLSS would be worse in VR than the currently available MSAA in DCS then ED would not have spent the development resources to implement it nor state it publicly that this technology will be supported. As they said for years that ED will not use any proprietary technology I'm sure they made all the preliminary test implementations to get to this decision.

That's exactly what I'm doing with great results in the other sim, running it at a resolution much higher than the native res of my G2 with OpenXR Toolkit. I can't wait to have DLSS in DCS to do the same

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I am not entirely what DLSS does to MSFS, it is just gathering virtual dust most of the time, I saw video what DLSS3 can do with other titles like Spiderman and it can fool most of the untrained eyes, which I am sure many of you ain't.

[St4rgun]

39 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

I am not entirely what DLSS does to MSFS, it is just gathering virtual dust most of the time, I saw video what DLSS3 can do with other titles like Spiderman and it can fool most of the untrained eyes, which I am sure many of you ain't.

I'm not talking about the special DLSS3 frame generation tech which is (at least right now) only supported by RTX 4000 series, but the simple supersampling available in DLSS2 also. It just scales up a lower resolution rendered image to a given (much) higher resolution with extreme efficiency and (mostly) pretty good quality. Plus can solve the dreaded shimmering effects of MSAA.

[MadKreator]

2 hours ago, St4rgun said:

 

Right now I"m actually exclusively using DLSS in MSFS because it's massively better than anything else, altough I had to spend quite amount of time to set it correctly:

• apply OpenXR Toolkit's fixed foveated rendering
• set the resolution higher (or much higher) than the native resolution of the headset - for my G2 I set it to 3500x3500, or even 4000x4000 to have very crisp dials and screens despite of DLSS

I know it's unbelievable at first but it's really good, only certainly not with default settings. Worth a try.

I'm pretty sure that if DLSS would be worse in VR than the currently available MSAA in DCS then ED would not have spent the development resources to implement it nor state it publicly that this technology will be supported. As they said for years that ED will not use any proprietary technology I'm sure they made all the preliminary test implementations to get to this decision.

I just have a quest2, I don’t do much vr but the civil sim I like to play only in vr, I will turn on dlss and try different resolutions, I never really messed with it. I would be more than content if DLSS just got rid of the shimmering objects in DCS. In 2d or VR, but I’m not sure it works like that (if it replaces anti-aliasing).

[Dragon1-1]

DLSS can, basically, be used in two ways: resolution reduction, where you render at below your native resolution and upscale the image, or antialiasing, where you start at your native resolution and then use DLSS to upscale it way up the wazoo, gaining the effect of quite extreme supersampling without the performance penalty. This trick takes advantage of the fact that with supersampling, the extra pixels rendered aren't actually shown on the screen, but instead they are used to inform the pixels that are. Thus, those extra pixels don't care about minor inaccuracies induced by DLSS. 

Of course, you can mix those two techniques. Say, render at 80% (what I'm currently working with) and upscale to 300%, or something like that. I'll be looking into doing it with FSR (I don't have an RTX GPU), as it can be used in a similar way.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Say, render at 80% (what I'm currently working with) and upscale to 300%, or something like that. I'll be looking into doing it with FSR

I wish to try this setting, I am using SteamVR and OXTK, which settings do I need to change?

[Dragon1-1]

AFAIK, increase render scale in SteamVR and set FSR to get your desired resolution. Haven't used OXTK in a while, though, so I don't remember how to configure FSR there.

[Thinder]

10 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

We are very close with multithreading and testing continues, DLSS will be in a future build also, but it will all depend on test results.  

So what is actually done for AMD users? I won't mention Pico's, but here is the score, my system is way better than what I can see in my headset without flickering or crashes and it's coming from the number of apps and tweacking we have to do to get the VR going in this game, it's way too complexe, and as a result we're wasting a lot of our PC real potentials.

Now, if my replays are right, the amount of details, image quality and stability of the refresh is way higher than what I see in my headset, there is a huge bottleneck somewhere between Streaming Assistant, Steam VR Beta, Virtual Desktop, and Open XR, that's 4 apps and probably two too many, not to mention that AMD's Adrenalin can also launch and monitor the game.

All we need is a single button with two options: Launch game. VR or 2D, the rest are performances anchors.

[Gunfreak]

7 hours ago, Thinder said:

So what is actually done for AMD users? I won't mention Pico's, but here is the score, my system is way better than what I can see in my headset without flickering or crashes and it's coming from the number of apps and tweacking we have to do to get the VR going in this game, it's way too complexe, and as a result we're wasting a lot of our PC real potentials.

Now, if my replays are right, the amount of details, image quality and stability of the refresh is way higher than what I see in my headset, there is a huge bottleneck somewhere between Streaming Assistant, Steam VR Beta, Virtual Desktop, and Open XR, that's 4 apps and probably two too many, not to mention that AMD's Adrenalin can also launch and monitor the game.

All we need is a single button with two options: Launch game. VR or 2D, the rest are performances anchors.

That's just how a VR headset works. Doesn't matter what resolution it says it has or how many fancy technologies it uses. VR will never look as good as flat.(not with current headsets) refresh rate and Smoothness is of course related to to the fact that VR uses more resources than flat. But the actual differences in graphics is just a limitation of the lenses used in VR headsets, and nothing to do with DCS itself  

Edited February 2, 2023 by Gunfreak

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Thinder said:

All we need is a single button with two options: Launch game. VR or 2D

We already have the option for simple shorcuts: dcs.exe --force_enable_VR or dcs.exe --force_disable_VR

we already have the single tick box to Enable VR headset

we already have community app https://forum.dcs.world/topic/134493-the-dcs-updater-gui-utility/ which let's you run it however you want even with different settings

 

[Lange_666]

18 minutes ago, draconus said:

We already have the option for simple shorcuts: dcs.exe --force_enable_VR or dcs.exe --force_disable_VR

we already have the single tick box to Enable VR headset

we already have community app https://forum.dcs.world/topic/134493-the-dcs-updater-gui-utility/ which let's you run it however you want even with different settings

 

The first one is a work around which loads default settings (at my end). If i then select my VR settings (preset 3) then the game needs to reload.
If one switches a lot between 2D and VR the settings that are loaded are always depending on the previous run. It should be selectable in game without a restart.

We have a tickbox but here the same problem as above exists.

SkateZilla's app does wonders to overcome the problem but since 2.8.x (2.7.x was fine) there's a little quirk that makes it load default settings at first startup (after a reboot) even when another preset is selected. Sometimes even 2 presets in the app are selected which is not possible to do yourself.

[Gunfreak]

18 minutes ago, Lange_666 said:

The first one is a work around which loads default settings (at my end). If i then select my VR settings (preset 3) then the game needs to reload.
If one switches a lot between 2D and VR the settings that are loaded are always depending on the previous run. It should be selectable in game without a restart.

We have a tickbox but here the same problem as above exists.

SkateZilla's app does wonders to overcome the problem but since 2.8.x (2.7.x was fine) there's a little quirk that makes it load default settings at first startup (after a reboot) even when another preset is selected. Sometimes even 2 presets in the app are selected which is not possible to do yourself.

If you use steam, and a steam vr compatable headset, all you have to do is start DCS from steam, you'll get a prompt letting you choose if you want to start DCS World, DCS world with steam VR or DCS world with oculus. That's all you need to do.