Pre-order, 17th of February’23

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, Nahen said:

BigNewy, can you provide at least an approximate number of F-15E pre-orders purchased in the first 48 hours? Just out of curiosity Maybe it would be nice to give some kind of ranking of the best-selling modules in some time (eg the first 48 hours)?

 

More than 1 and less than 1,000,000 will be the best approximation you're going to get I think. 

[Mav87th]

Does anyone know when the preorder period discount will end ?

[Mikep821]

Pre-purchase with no release date ?  You gotta be kidding.... what a joke

[Nahen]

Pre-order takes place before the product is released - so it should end on the day of module release Yes to my simple mind

[VpR81]

On 2/18/2023 at 4:51 AM, IrishFatty said:

There is NO advantage to the Steam version of DCS that I know of but happy to be corrected.

1. Download rate.

2. Customer protection.

3. Payment methods.

4. DRM via Steam servers.

5. Comfort. Switching language or between OB / stable is just a mouse click. No need for a reinstall or fiddle around with any files like back in the 90s.  Same for moving the DCS install to another drive. Game starts as if nothing was changed, also no need to fiddle around with any files.

6. Refund is just a mouse click without having to deal with the dev studio.

7. A working friends list.

8. Games guaranteed to work even after the developer is bancrupt because of 4. 

9. Most people have Steam anyways . No need for another annoying launcher or transmitting payment informations to another platform. Some ppl are sensible with their payment infos.

10. Modules are cheaper in general. Just a few €uros, but for some ppl this may make a difference as not everyone is living in the rich west like we do.

11. DCS embedded in the same ecosystem like the rest of the games.

12. I can buy modules on Steam and transmit them to standalone anytime. Vice versa is impossible.

I don´t think it is that hard to accept, that some ppl are just not willing to switch from steam to standalone because of one (or several) of these advantages. That broken "switch to standalone" record sometimes sounds like a sect trying to convert people, but not like a reasonable arguement. At least not to me.

Edited February 19, 2023 by VpR81

[Nahen]

4 minutes ago, VpR81 said:

1. Download rate.

2. Customer protection.

3. Payment methods.

4. DRM via Steam servers.

5. Comfort. Switching language or between OB / stable is just a mouse click. No need for a reinstall or fiddle around with any files like back in the 90s.  Same for moving the DCS install to another drive. Game starts as if nothing was changed, also no need to fiddle around with any files.

6. Refund is just a mouse click without having to deal with the dev studio.

7. A working friends list.

8. Games guaranteed to work even after the developer is bancrupt because of 4. 

9. Most people have Steam anyways . No need for another annoying launcher or transmitting payment informations to another platform. Some ppl are sensible with their payment infos.

10. Modules are cheaper in general. Just a few €uros, but for some ppl this may make a difference as not everyone is living in the rich west like we do.

11. DCS embedded in the same ecosystem like the rest of the games.

12. I can buy modules on Steam and transmit them to standalone anytime. Vice versa is impossible.

I don´t think it is that hard to accept, that some ppl are just not willing to switch from steam to standalone because of one (or several) of these advantages. That broken "switch to standalone" record sometimes sounds like a sect trying to convert people, but not like a reasonable arguement. At least not to me.

 

Unfortunately, when you start flying in more complex missions and with more people online, you suddenly find that the Steam version is strangely more likely to crash during gameplay, freeze, etc...

[VpR81]

25 minutes ago, Nahen said:

when you start flying in more complex missions and with more people online, you suddenly find that the Steam version is strangely more likely to crash during gameplay, freeze, etc...

I´m flying regular on crowded servers (Growling sidewinder / Flashpoint Levant / Buddy Spike) and i cannot confirm the Steam version beeing less stable than the standalone version of my friends i´m playing with. In fact, the guys with standalone i´m playing with have more crashes than i have, even while i´m in VR and most of them are playing in 2D. I highly doubt that this is related to  the version, but more to the hardware ppl are using.

edit: I had exactly one crash since 2.8 and that was related to SteamVR crashing.

Edited February 19, 2023 by VpR81

[Nahen]

9 minutes ago, VpR81 said:

I´m flying regular on crowded servers (Growling sidewinder / Flashpoint Levant / Buddy Spike) and i cannot confirm the Steam version beeing less stable than the standalone version of my friends i´m playing with. In fact, the guys with standalone i´m playing with have more crashes than i have, even while i´m in VR and most of them are playing in 2D. I highly doubt that this is related to  the version, but more to the hardware ppl are using.

edit: I had exactly one crash since 2.8 and that was related to SteamVR crashing.

 

These are simple servers - no triggers, no dependencies. Public PvP and PvE servers are generally in 99% based on the simplest schemes without extensive scripting and, above all, without or with a very limited number of triggers that kill performance.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Nahen

[VpR81]

That just means, it is irrelevant to the vast majority of players wich version is more stable. 

[SmirkingGerbil]

Dunno how it became a Steam vs. DCS thing.

I found and became a DCS fan (2011) because of Steam. I think Steam is important to DCS for marketing reach. However, after a few years I switched to full standalone DCS to better support ED/TFC. I am still a Steam customer, it does have a lot of advantages. Not sure why a line has to be drawn in the sand over the Steam vs. DCS F-15E drop. Sure, some things don't show up in one vs. the other, discounts etc. But Steam is a great platform, and works for those that wish to stay with it for DCS.

Pure DCS clients have advantages also, but those are very specific to a certain type of mindset and player, of which I am one. Mainly, maximize profit for a my favorite developer, and run the client in as pure a state as possible, especially Beta. But, not a day goes by that I am not launching a game from my Steam portal. Many of which I would never have bothered with if it were not for Steam.

 

[Beirut]

35 minutes ago, SmirkingGerbil said:

Dunno how it became a Steam vs. DCS thing.

 

Because drama is our business.

 

35 minutes ago, SmirkingGerbil said:

 

Not sure why a line has to be drawn in the sand over the Steam vs. DCS F-15E drop.
 

 

There are some who think Steam customers are less than orthodox on their DCS beliefs since Steam takes a cut that does not go to the devs. In the same way that some criticize those who buy things on sale since that also means the devs get less cash.

 

I have bought DCS stuff on sale... on Steam. I guess that makes me the worst of infidels.  

[VpR81]

1 hour ago, SmirkingGerbil said:

Dunno how it became a Steam vs. DCS thing.

Well, it is about pre-order and we figured out that DCS Steam users get treated different with the Mudhen pre-order by RAZBAM. And then some people came up with the "switch to standalone" stuff. Maybe because of that. Tbh, i don´t know why that broken record has to be repeated again and again because, as you already stated, ppl use the Steam version for various reasons. Some standalone users seem to be like vegetarians, who have to tell flesh eaters all the time how happy they are and how much better everything is since they stopped eating meat. And then wonder when their discussion partner tells them how tasty a juicy steak is.

Not at war with you or anyone else, sir.

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

I have bought DCS stuff on sale... on Steam. I guess that makes me the worst of infidels.  

Burn the heretic!

[Nahen]

4 hours ago, Beirut said:

I have bought DCS stuff on sale... on Steam. I guess that makes me the worst of infidels.  

IGNORED MODE ON !!!!!!!

 

 

[Beirut]

3 hours ago, Nahen said:

IGNORED MODE ON !!!!!!!

 

 

 

Now that the F-15E has sucked all the oxygen out of the room, there's a chance the MB-339 might be on sale next time there is one.

 

And I'll buy it.

 

On sale.

 

On Steam!  Ahh-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! 

 

 

[Pipe]

6 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

Now that the F-15E has sucked all the oxygen out of the room, there's a chance the MB-339 might be on sale next time there is one.

 

And I'll buy it.

 

On sale.

 

On Steam!  Ahh-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! 

 

 

That’s nice…..

[SilentGun]

ahh yes, another productive thread conversation

[Beirut]

6 hours ago, Pipe said:

That’s nice…..

 

Yes, it is. It's a lovely plane. I'm glad you agree. 

[shaneduce]

On 2/19/2023 at 3:36 AM, Mikep821 said:

Pre-purchase with no release date ?  You gotta be kidding.... what a joke

Yeah and not a funny one.

 

[cfrag]

On 2/19/2023 at 12:49 PM, VpR81 said:

1. Download rate.

[eleven more good reasons skipped for brevity]

There's at least one more reason that made me choose Steam over standalone:

• Convenience: a central, self-updating trusted app that manages all my games ("One app to rule them all!". Errrrm). I removed Origin, Rockstar, EA, Ubisoft, GOG and all the other 'standalone' apps from my drive that mucked up my folders, start-up time and fragmented my library view. Now I don't have to remember who makes/sells/licenses what. I just have one big library. And only steam has my credit card number.

I know it's not a popular opinion, and some people think that I should move to standalone to lend more support to ED because they (ED) make more per sale on their own store than through Steam. I contend that even though ED do make more per sale on their own store, they make (I think an order of magnitude) more sales in total on Steam, so the contribution to their bottom line, even after taking away some 30% is still much greater than what they make from their own store. That is why it's financially attractive to work with a big (really, really big in case of Steam) distributor even if you have to pay them a share of your profit - it's beneficial to both sides.

Neither Steam nor their customers are the bad guys here. Steam regularly reaches customers that ED would never be able to sell to, and to quote the CEO of a software company I worked with and who was in a similar position: "I'd rather have 70% of something, than 100% of nothing". Selling through Steam is good for ED. Steam customers are good for ED. People are more likely to discover DCS through Steam than they would be willing to download and run an app from an obscure formerly East-Block developer. That's an instant win, because in order to get hooked, you have to download first - and once you see how great DCS is, people can get hooked. But they need to download first. So I urge you to not knock Steam - I think we should acknowledge that Steam is doing great things for ED.

Now, if RB don't see it that way, that's their decision. We'll see if they can afford to also forego Early Access sales on Steam - which after all have the exact same conditions as pre-order sales. If not (and I doubt they can/will), RB unfortunately lost money and goodwill on this - somewhat uncommon - decision. Here's still holding both thumbs for RB and the F-15E to be a great success.

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by cfrag

[ironhard]

On 2/19/2023 at 12:55 PM, Nahen said:

Unfortunately, when you start flying in more complex missions and with more people online, you suddenly find that the Steam version is strangely more likely to crash during gameplay, freeze, etc...

Fake news.

[Baldrick33]

51 minutes ago, cfrag said:

There's at least one more reason that made me choose Steam over standalone:

• Convenience: a central, self-updating trusted app that manages all my games ("One app to rule them all!". Errrrm). I removed Origin, Rockstar, EA, Ubisoft, GOG and all the other 'standalone' apps from my drive that mucked up my folders, start-up time and fragmented my library view. Now I don't have to remember who makes/sells/licenses what. I just have one big library. And only steam has my credit card number.

I know it's not a popular opinion, and some people think that I should move to standalone to lend more support to EA because they (EA) make more per sale on their own store than through Steam. I contend that even though ED do make more per sale on their own store, they make (I think an order of magnitude) more sales in total on Steam, so the contribution to their bottom line, even after taking away some 30% is still much greater than what they make from their own store. That is why it's financially attractive to work with a big (really, really big in case of Steam) distributor even if you have to pay them a share of your profit - it's beneficial to both sides.

Neither Steam nor their customers are the bad guys here. Steam regularly reaches customers that ED would never be able to sell to, and to quote the CEO of a software company I worked with and who was in a similar position: "I'd rather have 70% of something, than 100% of nothing". Selling through Steam is good for EA. Steam customers are good for EA. People are more likely to discover DCS through Steam than they would be willing to download and run an app from an obscure formerly East-Block developer. That's an instant win, because in order to get hooked, you have to download first - and once you see how great DCS is, people can get hooked. But they need to download first. So I urge you to not knock Steam - I think we should acknowledge that Steam is doing great things for ED.

Now, if RB don't see it that way, that's their decision. We'll see if they can afford to also forego Early Access sales on Steam - which after all have the exact same conditions as pre-order sales. If not (and I doubt they can/will), RB unfortunately lost money and goodwill on this - somewhat uncommon - decision. Here's still holding both thumbs for RB and the F-15E to be a great success.

Well explained and certainly describes my initial experience with purchasing DCS.

Once I got the DCS bug I transitioned to standalone. It avoided adding a third party to the mix and any discrepancies with release dates or third party rules. I had no issue with purchasing in dollars. Plus I had read up about more money going to ED and had made the decision I wanted to support them for future development - as I considered them a key vendor for my hobby.

I also dislike having loads of programs running as installers but found I had complete control over the DCS updater and when it ran and where it installed files. So was happy in this respect.

I fully understand people using Steam - I am an IT guy so it should be simpler for me to work out. That said there are a bunch of aircraft systems I struggle to get my head around, DCS can be a pretty complex simulation to learn so for me at least setting it up and managing the installation seem the easy bit!

However, getting people into DCS to catch the bug to find out all the stuff I did to move to standalone requires accessibility and IMHO Steam provides that. So I am surprised to see such big discrepancies with this module between the versions which haven't been forced upon the developers by Steam's own rules. I appreciate it is down to RB rather than ED but in my view seems an odd choice.

[Nahen]

54 minutes ago, ironhard said:

Fake news.

Probably yes... just strange that out of about 100 people in our community, problems on missions are most often reported by people flying under Steam...

[ironhard]

20 minutes ago, Nahen said:

Probably yes... just strange that out of about 100 people in our community, problems on missions are most often reported by people flying under Steam...

Source?

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, ironhard said:

On 2/19/2023 at 12:55 PM, Nahen said:

Unfortunately, when you start flying in more complex missions and with more people online, you suddenly find that the Steam version is strangely more likely to crash during gameplay, freeze, etc...

Fake news.

Agreed. Code-wise, there is zero difference between Steam and Standalone clients except for the DRM code that runs on start-up. This sounds a lot like 'it must be true because I feel it's true' conspiracy theory stuff. What is likely, though, is that when you fly with more people, more people will use Steam, because (I believe) that the Steam share of players outnumber (from a purely installed user base, not necessarily on-line) stand-alone by more than 5:1. So naturally, there's a >5:1 chance that people who are hit by problems are using Steam. The likelihood of an individual DCS installation to experience issues is the same across all installations (stand-alone and Steam). If you know differently, please provide numbers (I don't even know how a server could collect these numbers, so I'd like to know the methodology how this was measured). Until then, assertions that 'Steam versions are strangely more likely to crash' to me are just wild speculation phrased as fact.

Edited February 21, 2023 by cfrag

[Nahen]

17 minutes ago, ironhard said:

Source?

Let me repeat - a community that my friends and I created and where there are currently about 100 active people. Once a week, on average, we fly "serious" missions involving an average of 25-35 people. It may be much more. Over 90% of mission issues with performance, disconnections, strange controllers behavior are reported by people flying the Steam version. What other source do you want? When they switch to standalone version the problems either end or their frequency drops drastically. Especially for those with "weaker" computers. What would you dont come up with - by running DCS Steam edition, you run the Steam overlay which takes up some resources. And even if both versions were 1 to 1 the same, in the case of Steam Edition there is an additional unnecessary soft that works in the background. And most likely, he generates problems.
And on my own example - once I installed WarThunder from Steam ... I never played because despite several reinstalls it crashed during startup. The version from the developer's website went without problems ... Coincidence? I don't think so. And I had more than a few such cases, and so did my friends.

And by the way, I've been using Steam for many years. But unfortunately, in my and many other cases, the truth is that steam as such - overlay, "system" can generate problems.