AIM 54 - best tactics?

[TOMCATZ]

Hi!

 

I enjoy flight sims since 30 years. I have, more or less, enough experience about tactics, angles, speeds and all the stuff you should know to handle a fox 3 and get a kill. 

But the AIM 54 drives me totally crazy. I have more or less a zero chance to hit with them against modern fighters like Flankers. I believe, it is a wired mixture of a bad guidance of the AIM 54 and a truly unrealistic "hyper lobby" behavior of the given AI of DCS. 

Normally I would pick a bandit up with the radar by around 60 miles or earlier. I would launch my AIM54 in 40k feet or higher in 50 to 40 miles distance and crank 40 to 50 degrees left or right while descending. If the missiles goes "pit bull", I would go out and generate distance and altitude in order to prepare myself for the next attack while my full active missiles would hit some or at least the bandit. 

But what is now? 

As long as I fire my AIM54 in 50 miles, the Flanker dive down and the AIM 54 will never go active. ( As long as my RADAR is tracking the bandit, the AIM54 should be guided! Just saying) Thank you very much! Is the time has come to reach the pit bull state, the Flanker is so close that they answer with ET's or ER's - most in combination. If I decide to run away, the Flanker chases me as hell until I or the bandit runs out of gas. In most cases he shoots me down and ejects short after. This is "realistic" - get it. 

If I wait with my launch until the bandit is close like 30 miles- He is in perfect shooting condition for his ER's and because of the higher speed of the ER's, he will hit me before my AIM54 goes active. But even then, the Flanker dances with my missile and outmaneuver them. Plus that the AIM54 is addicted to chaffs and highly notch-able.  (Why- If the missiles radar loose the lock, the the tomcat radar should feed her with data as long is the cat is still tracking)

How do I get a kill now?

Well - I go very low- between 1000 and 5000 feet, get a lock in ACM mode, fire the AIM 54 in ACM mode and try to escape. That is exactly the opposite how an air superior fighter should work.

 

So my question is simple: We have the sexiest fighter ever build. Equipped with the most useless missile in DCS. Do you have a super duper tactic, range, radar mode or what ever, to get a save hit on an enemy fighter? 

(please don't get me wrong - I think that the performance data of the missile is correct. The guidance could be better but seems to be okay for me. So I will not talk about the missile. I just want to find out- how to use in DCS) 

When the TOMCAT was in service 1990- the Soviet force had not only MiG21's and some Floggers. The Cats faced opponents like Fulcrums and Flankers:

Soviet Forces 1990 (Wiki):

90 Suchoi Su-27                                                            338 F-14 aircraft US NAVY

540 Mikojan-Gurewitsch MiG-29

700 Mikojan-Gurewitsch MiG-23

185 Mikojan-Gurewitsch MiG-21

200 Mikojan-Gurewitsch MiG-31

40 Mikojan-Gurewitsch MiG-25

But with the actual unrealistic AI design of DCS, it is really hard to survive in a Cat and really don't believe that that is correct. So: 

What is your tactic? You just run away?

Edited February 21, 2023 by TOMCATZ

[The_Tau]

Tacview-20230112-024101-DCS-F-14B BVR F-16C.zip.acmiTacview-20230112-023433-DCS-F-14B BVR F-16C.zip.acmi

Tacview-20230112-030006-DCS-F-14B BVR F-16C.zip.acmiTacview-20221218-210516-DCS.zip.acmi

My take into this

Currently AI in DCS is amazingly (unrealistically?) good in notching (  talking ACE level here), and it will always see missile at 10 nm.

Please don't tell me you use AIM54A (too bad vs fighters + it is per USN doctrine prior 1986), use 54C
If you can see your lost track diverging from real track, cut missile support, fire another one. Lost 54C might find bandit on its own

Fly high, fly fast. Keep those speeds and angels, dive ONLY in emergencies 

Due to this fact, you are limited in defensive maneuvers to basically horizontal plane, therefore know your MAR ranges, stick to them

Fire from long range 60nm, PRIORITIZE high flying bandits. Higher they go (35k+, 40k+ very juicy kill for 54). AI on CAP mission will try to match your angels, use that and bait them high 40k+. After fire DONT dive, if you do, AI will follow matching your angels making life of your 54 much harder. 

Use ECM, especially vs FC3 Flankers, they will not fire  until range is  <29nm. REMEMBER TO SWITCH ECM OFF WHEN RANGE IS BELOW 29nm. Otherwise you turn their R27ERs into stealth Fire and Forget missiles

After pitbull banzai, keep the pressure, you kill them with long range great, mission accomplished. Otherwise they are low and slow, you are high and fast. Scan low, STT, fire 54 20nm and less, Keep speed and angels! Keep the MAR (remember they fly from thick air!)! Abort if they are too close

 

Tacview-20230112-015824-DCS-F-14B BVR Su27.zip.acmi Tacview-20221218-205259-DCS-F-14B BVR Su27.zip.acmi Tacview-20221218-205259-DCS-F-14B BVR Su27.zip.acmi Tacview-20221218-210516-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20221218-211218-DCS.zip.acmi

Edited February 21, 2023 by The_Tau

[Karon]

null> a truly unrealistic "hyper lobby" behavior of the given AI of DCS.
Yep, culprit #1. Don't play vs ACE AI. It's wasted time.

> As long as my RADAR is tracking the bandit, the AIM54 should be guided! Just saying
Neg. You said you are past A-Pole, in DCS the missiles are on their own. See below.

> Is the time has come to reach the pit bull state, the Flanker is so close that they answer with ET's or ER's

Review your timeline. You can spot a Flanker at 120+nm between AGC and PDSRCH, you have all the time in the world to employ multiple times.

I agree on the ER though, I made a partial WEZ model, and it's crazy, it reminds me of the R-33 when ED forgot to implement something (the old R-33 was not losing any energy even when manoeuvring). I'm not saying it's wrong, but wow, that's a fast missile, much faster than the SD-10, which in turn is faster than the AIM-120C-5.

 

> If I wait with my launch until the bandit is close like 30 miles- He is in perfect shooting condition for his ER's and because of the higher speed of the ER's 

At 30nm you still have the advantage (unless it's human, and it's lofting it): you don't have to babysit the AIM-54 until A-Pole, just let it go earlier. Also, no one says that you have to stay high post launch. The greatest jump in the MAR occurs between 35k and 25k.

 

> the the tomcat radar should feed her with data as long is the cat is still tracking 

IRL only for the A, IIRC. Not implemented in DCS due to the game's limitations.

 

> That is exactly the opposite how an air superior fighter should work. 

Why? At low altitude, the gap between the AIM-54 and the 27ER is at its narrowest point. To paraphrase a meme, you're flying in the whole sky, not only above 30k

 

> Equipped with the most useless missile in DCS. Do you have a super duper tactic, range, radar mode or what ever, to get a save hit on an enemy fighter?  

Have you considered the possibility of user error? I have the feeling you do not properly understand the AIM-54, and especially what it needs to be successful.

 

> When the TOMCAT was in service 1990- the Soviet force had not only MiG21's and some Floggers. The Cats faced opponents like Fulcrums and Flankers: 

You may have missed a *tiny* geopolitical fact that occurred in those years. Which led to a drastic change in, well, everything (ditching of the AIM-152 included).
Not to mention that numbers on a piece of paper don't mean much, as we are all witnessing since last year, and looking at the past, the presence of working and up-to-date pieces of avionics in the Soviet inventory, such as modern RWRs, is debatable.
Also, you listed 1755 aircraft. 5.1% are Flankers, definitely the most scary of the batch.

 

So, I have the feeling you nailed the biggest issue: the AI. In DCS, it is uncapable of doing pretty much anything but notching or go cold (because it does know the energy status of the missile). When you see a MiG-21 perfectly notching your AIM-54 multiple times in a row, you ask yourself some questions, isn't it?
My solution is making your missions more realistic by moving backwards a few years (although we'd need the 45/50 for that). Get rid of AWACS and datalinks, then randomise the opponent's skill up to veteran and their reaction type. For example, if you look at the Iran v Iraq war, or even the 90s Gulf War, you see aircraft blown out of the sky without even trying to defend.

 

Lastly, what have you done to your post, my eyes are bleeding!

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Karon

[TOMCATZ]

Thank you very much for your comments!

I use the AIM54C and yes- a user error is always possible. But after thousands of hours of using Sims, thousands successful missions, I would say that the chance is pretty low but not zero. Okay - I will do some tacviews tonight. I'm highly interested about your comments and helps. 

What makes me happy (bittersweet) is that you confirm more or less the behavior of the DCS AI. Okay - hopefully there is a way to work it out.

Thanks again,

Cheers

TOM

[Karon]

Trust me, I have tens of thousands hours in DCS if we count LOMAC as well. I used to spend whole weekends playing, and I still learn new things (and make mistakes) every day

I'm looking forward to seeing your tracks, although I'm afraid that the verdict will be, at least partially, something along the lines of the AI doing AI things.
That being said, I consider a P_K of 40%-50% quite good in DCS. The Phoenix should be a bit lower than that.

[Dannyvandelft]

Best results I'm getting are launching between 35,000 and 40,000 feet. Doing between Mach 1 and Mach 1.2. Between 10 and 15 degrees nose up. Between 60 and 80 nm distance.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[bies]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:47 AM, TOMCATZ said:

Hi!

I enjoy flight sims since 30 years

Soviet Forces 1990 (Wiki):

Comparing number of F-14 alone to number of whole USSR fighter fleet is like comparing 300 Su-27 in 1990 to 2,893 USAF fighters alone (without US Navy fighters) in 1990.

BTW: You did include ONLY ONE SMALLER of two Soviet air forces - VVS. Soviet Union had also huge air defence fighter and rocket forces PVO with additional interceptors, better founded than tactical aviation you mentioned, but contrary to VVS, PVO pilots were trained to perform ground guided straight line interceptions, not trained to perform air combat:

PVO had in 1990 additional:

500 Sukhoi Su-15
850 Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23
350 Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25
210 Sukhoi Su-27 (yes, Su-27 was in biggest part produced for Air Defence in Su-27P variant, not for tactical aviation)
360 Mikoyan MiG-31

 

Which gave USSR combined fleet of 3,545 fighters (1,275 fighters in VVS. And 2,315 interceptors in PVO) roughly 2/3 trained to perform interceptions in PVO and 1/3 to perform air combat in VVS for combine numbers:

50 MiG-21
500 Sukhoi Su-15
1445 Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23
350 Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25
300 Sukhoi Su-27
900 Mikoyan MiG-31

Overall USSR operated roughly 11,500 combat aircrafts in late Cold War plus roughly 2,500 in satellite states in Europe for combined 14,000 combat aircrafts in Warsaw Pact, compared to 12,000 combat aircrafts in NATO (Excluding Naval Aviation)

(Additionally Warsaw Pact had 1253 Naval aviation combat aircrafts when NATO 4890 Naval aviation combat aircrafts) - not included it the chart below.

 

For comparison today's Russia has 912 fighters and roughly 3,500 main battle tanks - 16 times less tanks than 1980s USSR which operated 54,300 deployed tanks in active units, and additional 15,000 in depot reserve.

Edited February 28, 2023 by bies

[RustBelt]

Also to everything everyone else said, the Flanker was built as a counter to the F-14 and F-15 fighters. Everything about it is designed to out fight the pre AIM-120 twin engined fighters. You really can’t use AWG-9 TWS on them well, and with their IRST they’ll see you and your giant VW Beetle of a Fox 3 coming from a good deal away. 
 

OTOH, you can get them running cold which puts them at a strong disadvantage until you get in Fox-2 range. Then you better hope they have the cheap heat seekers on.

[bies]

45 minutes ago, RustBelt said:

Also to everything everyone else said, the Flanker was built as a counter to the F-14 and F-15 fighters. Everything about it is designed to out fight the pre AIM-120 twin engined fighters. You really can’t use AWG-9 TWS on them well, and with their IRST they’ll see you and your giant VW Beetle of a Fox 3 coming from a good deal away. 
 

OTOH, you can get them running cold which puts them at a strong disadvantage until you get in Fox-2 range. Then you better hope they have the cheap heat seekers on.

Cold War 1980s MiG-29 and Su-27 IRST was usefull only in high altitude, good weather, interception. According to fighter pilot Lt.Col. Fred "Spanky" Clifton with 510 hours in F-5, 900 hours in F-15, 2030 hours F-16 and 500 hours in MiG-29 - MiG-29 IRST was useless in tactical air to air combat, on the other hand he praised ZSh-5 / Shchel-3UM helmet sight. He fought the biggest amount of simulated air combat engagement flying MiG-29 against all NATO fighters between 1996 and 1998 during evaluation program in many different tactical scenarios using both WarPac and NATO tactics. There are two great interviews with him, when he is talking about very interesting details, one written, one video.

There is also great interwiew with Russian Su-27 and Su-35 pilot in Russian part of the DCS forum - Russian language is required. According to him 1980s Su-27S/P would be badly beaten by NATO fighters in tactical air combat as pilot's situational awareness was far worse in dynamic situation, it was good for predictable interceptions.

cheers

[TOMCATZ]

Okay -

I just got back from work and did 2 engagements against a flanker. I made my attacks as I always have in the past, but this time I put him under pressure. Normally I wouldn't do that. Anyway ... It's far from what I expect from one of the most expensive AAmissiles ever produced... It was... yes ... I'm not happy with the result and the AI behaves like a child after the fifth RedBull ...

What I have so far is: forget about any mission against a modern fighter. It will end in a wild short range massacre for sure.

Happy for your ideas and comments guys - Thanks in advance and Cheers

TOM

 

BTW: Bies: fantastic facts - very interesting.  

 

Tacview-20230221-191216-DCS-CATvsFLANKER-AIM54C-TEST.zip.acmi Tacview-20230221-185634-DCS-CATvsFLANKER-AIM54C-TEST.zip.acmi

Edited February 21, 2023 by TOMCATZ

[RustBelt]

2 hours ago, bies said:

Cold War 1980s MiG-29 and Su-27 IRST was usefull only in high altitude, good weather, interception. According to fighter pilot Lt.Col. Fred "Spanky" Clifton with 510 hours in F-5, 900 hours in F-15, 2030 hours F-16 and 500 hours in MiG-29 - MiG-29 IRST was useless in tactical air to air combat, on the other hand he praised ZSh-5 / Shchel-3UM helmet sight. He fought the biggest amount of simulated air combat engagement flying MiG-29 against all NATO fighters between 1996 and 1998 during evaluation program in many different tactical scenarios using both WarPac and NATO tactics. There are two great interviews with him, when he is talking about very interesting details, one written, one video.

There is also great interwiew with Russian Su-27 and Su-35 pilot in Russian part of the DCS forum - Russian language is required. According to him 1980s Su-27S/P would be badly beaten by NATO fighters in tactical air combat as pilot's situational awareness was far worse in dynamic situation, it was good for predictable interceptions.

cheers

Except we don’t have 80’s Su and MiGs really. Especially not under FC3. They’re more capable than they would be if they were made to current DCS rigor. 

2 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

. Anyway ... It's far from what I expect from one of the most expensive AAmissiles ever produced... It was... yes ... I'm 

What do you call the most expensive computer of 1972?

 

Scrap.

[bies]

14 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Except we don’t have 80’s Su and MiGs really. Especially not under FC3. They’re more capable than they would be if they were made to current DCS rigor. 

What we have is FC3 is original Soviet Union 1980s Su-27S, VVS variant, with additional capability to carry 1990s post-Soviet introduced R-27ER/ET. Before first post Cold War modernisation called Su-27SM. Contract for Su-27SM modernisation has been signed in 2006 and the first squadron became operational in 2010. 

Contrary to our Soviet era variant Su-27SM had MFDs, new radar, ability to use guided air-to-ground ordnance, including Kh-29 and Kh-31 missiles, and laser-guided bombs, as well as the R-77 air-to-air missile. Contrary to our 1980s variant Su-27SM used Pastel RWR instead of 1980s Beryoza we have and wingtip Khibiny ECM instead of 1980s Sorbtsiya we have.

Yes, FC3 modules are simplified and doesn't model many RL limitations of Su-27S and MiG-29 9.12.

Edited February 22, 2023 by bies

[The_Tau]

5 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

 

I just got back from work and did 2 engagements against a flanker. I made my attacks as I always have in the past, but this time I put him under pressure. Normally I wouldn't do that.

 

You see, you did something I suggested not to do - you dived after fire. 

Try again but fire from longer range say 45-50nm, turn jammer on (turn it off when range is less then 29nm), and KEEP alt until pitbull,

Then you can skate if fired upon or push him. Keep alt at least above 20k but best 30k unless fired upon from less then 10nm 

Your second 54, you fired from alt 3k feet, and 54 couldn't even break mach 2. Fire it from 30k, mach 1.2 and missile will dive down speeding up even to mach 3. Thats aim 120 speeds. Much bigger difference.

 

I recreated your scenario. If you gave bandit any special actions or attributes feel free to share your mission I will try to find best tactic

BTW AI was set to ace

Tacview-20230222-002159-DCS.zip.acmiTacview-20230222-002844-DCS.zip.acmi

Edited February 21, 2023 by The_Tau

[captain_dalan]

To quote Gimli : "Give me your mission file Horse Master, and i'll give you my Tacview file"... 

[TOMCATZ]

9 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Except we don’t have 80’s Su and MiGs really. Especially not under FC3. They’re more capable than they would be if they were made to current DCS rigor. 

What do you call the most expensive computer of 1972?

 

Scrap.

What?! You mean- the AIM54 use computer tech from 1972? Your comparison hinks a bit, buddy. 

[QuiGon]

22 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

I believe, it is a wired mixture of a bad guidance of the AIM 54 and a truly unrealistic "hyper lobby" behavior of the given AI of DCS.

[...]

If I wait with my launch until the bandit is close like 30 miles- He is in perfect shooting condition for his ER's and because of the higher speed of the ER's, he will hit me before my AIM54 goes active. But even then, the Flanker dances with my missile and outmaneuver them.

12 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

It was... yes ... I'm not happy with the result and the AI behaves like a child after the fifth RedBull ..

What I really don't understand is: Why do you even bother fighting super human AI? They can detect missiles way better than humans and can perfectly outmaneuver them as well. Why don't you jump on a MP server of your choice and fight against human opponents with human behaviour? Believe me, it's much more fun than fighting computers

[Callsign JoNay]

5 hours ago, QuiGon said:

Why don't you jump on a MP server of your choice and fight against human opponents with human behaviour? Believe me, it's much more fun than fighting computers

It's a double edged sword. Human opponents can't detect the missile from as far away, but they can anticipate it and preemptively defend it earlier. And you don't need AI-perfect notching to break the AIM-54's active lock and send it into its evasive pull up maneuver. Human pilots can do it easily too of their RWR is good.

The AIM-54 is not easily defeated because the AI is too smart, it's easily defeated because of the current guidance limitations. It's a PDSTT lock that can be notched , (and once it's notched even once it's toast), while the AWG-9 is a PDSTT that can't be. It's illogical, but an unfortunate limitation apparently. New API can't come soon enough!

By the way, what servers do you recommend? Seems like everything these days is either air Quake, or cold war (Fox-1 only), or PVE.

[Karon]

19 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

Okay -

I just got back from work and did 2 engagements against a flanker. I made my attacks as I always have in the past, but this time I put him under pressure. Normally I wouldn't do that. Anyway ... It's far from what I expect from one of the most expensive AAmissiles ever produced... It was... yes ... I'm not happy with the result and the AI behaves like a child after the fifth RedBull ...

What I have so far is: forget about any mission against a modern fighter. It will end in a wild short range massacre for sure.

Happy for your ideas and comments guys - Thanks in advance and Cheers

TOM

 

BTW: Bies: fantastic facts - very interesting.  

 

Tacview-20230221-191216-DCS-CATvsFLANKER-AIM54C-TEST.zip.acmi 695.6 kB · 6 downloads Tacview-20230221-185634-DCS-CATvsFLANKER-AIM54C-TEST.zip.acmi 620.15 kB · 6 downloads

 

I'm skipping some of the other replies because I thoroughly disagree, but we are doomed to go OT otherwise. Back to your tracks, I could tell you to "do this or that", but I'd be rather pointless. It is better if you explain the modus operandi behind your engagements. So, why are you launching at the range you are launching? Why aren't you getting closer or, vice versa, farther? What are the parameters, characteristics or peculiarities, both of your aircraft and the target's that led you to that decision?

[Xl-45]

Here is some information about the behaviour of AI-controlled Flankers and Fulcrums in DCS:

If your jammer is ON, the AI will not engage you until you're within 21 nm with R-27ER, even though your jammer's burnthrough range is 29 nm. Therefore, one can approach within a relatively close range before being fired upon. However, it is important to remember to deactivate the jammer when within the Flanker's weapon employment range, like it was said before.

To engage a single target, I recommend using PD-STT rather than TWS, as the AI does not seem to care about the Phoenix unless it is within 10 nm.
Nevertheless, locking onto a target with STT can be challenging if the Flanker is equipped with ECM pods.
Typically, the AI will only use its jammers when being targeted in STT, unless ECM options are manually set in the Mission Editor.
In these conditions, one can fire in TWS mode to avoid activating the jammer, or fire in STT-JAT mode with manual loft, while keeping the lock until impact or until the Phoenix is close enough to see the target with its seeker.

Finally, AI Flankers will not engage with R-27ET (the IR version of the R-27ER) until within 5 nm if Afterburners are not used. If flying with Afterburners, they will engage at 21 nm if the targeted aircraft is HOT, and 25 nm if it is Flanking.

I hope that'll be useful for you! I know that these behaviours may not be realistic, but they are currently present in DCS, and as such, can be utilized to help balance engagements, especially with the current state of the Phoenix.

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Callsign JoNay said:

It's a double edged sword. Human opponents can't detect the missile from as far away, but they can anticipate it and preemptively defend it earlier. And you don't need AI-perfect notching to break the AIM-54's active lock and send it into its evasive pull up maneuver. Human pilots can do it easily too of their RWR is good.

Absolutely, but that's exactly what makes it way more realistic and interesting: the human factor and it's unpredictability, unlike a machine that always reacts perfectly the same.
 

1 hour ago, Callsign JoNay said:

The AIM-54 is not easily defeated because the AI is too smart, it's easily defeated because of the current guidance limitations. It's a PDSTT lock that can be notched , (and once it's notched even once it's toast), while the AWG-9 is a PDSTT that can't be. It's illogical, but an unfortunate limitation apparently. New API can't come soon enough!

What? Since when can the PDSTT of the AWG-9 not be notched? I see that hapening all the time
 

1 hour ago, Callsign JoNay said:

By the way, what servers do you recommend? Seems like everything these days is either air Quake, or cold war (Fox-1 only), or PVE.

I love the Blue Flag servers as they are PvP, non air-quake and at least one of them is in a modern setting: http://gadget.buddyspike.net/

Edited February 22, 2023 by QuiGon

[TOMCATZ]

Very good points- thank you very much. 

 

So - why I act in this way so far: 

Normally I try to be high and fast. Means more or less above 40thousand with Mach .9. If I release my AIM54 too early, and the AI maneuver meanwhile to another position, my missile will not go active. Its wired because the AIM54 should be updated but often it not seems to be. "My" Jester is using TWS. I like it and I let him do his dark magic. My math is pretty simple: If I launch in 40 thousand, my missile range is around 40NM. That ensure that the missile will hit with more then Mach 2.0 as long as the target is not maneuvering. 30 thousand means 30 miles range, 20 thousand means 20 miles range and so on ... very very simple spoken. 

After the launch I break into a dive of around 30 degrees nose down and an offset 40 degrees or more. So I buy time to support my missile and can counter any incoming missiles if the bandit is shooting. Under normal circumstances I would go cold when my AIM54 is pit bull. With the AIM120 it is more or less sure that the missile will hit. But even if not- while he is evading, I can generate distance and speed to recommit later. 

If I press, I switch directly into ACM mode. Why? Because Jester is much too slow in tracking and locking. Jester has even problems finding targets above or below with the radar- it takes ages and every hostile will lock and fire much sooner. And the menu for Jester is not a good solution for me - I'm to slow to tell him: look down, scan right, lock STT, So thats the reason why I go ACM as soon as I can see the bandit. 

Unfortunately the AIM54 have a kill possibility of ZERO against fighters like 29ners or Flankers. So it ends every time in a Close Range missile fight. So we have a long range missile, that not hit on long range. And that makes the Tomcat useless against modern fighters. But the Tomcat is created only for that Radar and in special that missiles- That is, what is really confusing me. And that is the reason, why I ask the community.

So you could say, Okay the missile guidance is trash (in special in endgame). You could say the AI is stupidly programmed (Nobody would ever act like this in reality) . But even if some things are really off: how can I still enjoy my sexy Tomcat without getting more and more frustrated. 

 

So what I see so far:

- AI is simply high class. That means, I will fight against MiG23's or older fighters.

- I will try some of the give advises - adjust altitude and profile- maybe it is more safer 

- If a MiG29 or Flanker is comming up - run like hell- avoid fighting.

 

[The_Tau]

@TOMCATZYeah aim 54 is not amraam. Do not treat like one.  Its got its own stats.  Look at my tacview and yours.  You fired at 35nm I fired at 60nm and  yet 54 arrived at 10nm from bandit (distance AI detects missile and starts defending) with around same speed of 2.7 mach.  

 

With 54 is not really distance which affects missile pk but altitude.  Altitude of you and the bandit

[falcon_120]

By the way, what servers do you recommend? Seems like everything these days is either air Quake, or cold war (Fox-1 only), or PVE.

Ddcs (dynamic dcs), for sure the best server around in my opinion.

It PvP with a dynamic Frontline and combined arms at its core. You only advance the front with cooperation from Fighter, chopters and ground forces controlled by a human. Also it has game economics, good weapons like amraam C or harms cost a lot of money which you only get back with kills or slinging, so you don't see people taking off with 12 cbu105 or 10 amraams C...

Also the player base is quite skilled so every kill, even against ground targets feels like glory (its amazing how good all ground units like tanks and IR Sam's are when controlled by human and not sitting in bases like sitting ducks).

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Karon]

@TOMCATZI'm AFK ATM so I can't share charts and numbers with you. Therefore, I will reply better later.

Quick observations:

- Range Logic: I see your point of approximating altitude, range and performance. Unfortunately, it works for any missile besides the Phoenix! The AIM-54 is a unique missile in DCS, we'll see later why.

- range vs manoeuvres: you are correct, the greater the separation at launch, the higher the possibilities that the target simply runs away. That's why it is a great missile for its era, where situational awareness was lower than nowadays and RWR were much less common and reliable (see the F1 in Iraq). However, that fact that the target manoeuvres does not mean that the missile is not activated, not at all!

- Jester: the AI is great, but it is not as proactive as a human - I actually can't imagine people taking orders from an AI, so the Devs had to do it this way. However, I strongly recommend you to jump in the backseat post crank and monitor from there, switch to STT (turn the MLC off!) and so on.

- Su & MiG: they are not particularly threatening if you respect the MAR. The R-27ER is bloody scary because it is fast, but again, respect the MAR and you are good. The R-77 came much later than the Tomcat, but it's a worse AIM-120B, thus manageble.

 

I'll reply with more data later.

 

[bonesvf103]

What I do and usually works against fighters, even against the MiG-29 is while they are still far out, more than 30 miles away, I will get as high and fast as I can.  USually in the missions I've flown I'd get to about 30,000 ft, maybe higher but then I start to lose performance and speed.  I track them with TWS until they get to around 30 nm.  Once they break that range, I fire, then I immediately dive, but not necessarily right down to the ground.  I just dive to about 1000 ft below their altitude.  This way my radar can look up at them and avoid ground clutter and obstructions. I remain fast, closing the range and keeping high energy in case the missiles fail--I've already got a Sparrow lined up.  If the Phoenix hits, great.  If not, I close in with the Sparrow and attack, while trying to keep good SA for the enemy wingmen since I can only STT the one.  If I start to get within 10 miles of the bandits, I also start popping flares even if offensive--too many times I neglected this and got killed by a heater while I was monitoring my target and missile.  If they are heading at me nose on at this time I do a barrel roll at idle while popping flares and that almost always defeats an incoming IR missile.  If they fire a radar missile at me, since I am already coming in hot at them fast, I do an F-pole and that usually defeats their missile and then I re-engage with the same missile or another one of need be.  If nothing works, I still have alot of energy to split S to the deck and bug out an re-evaluate if I should go back in or run for it.

That's just my usual tactic.  I did the stock BVR missions in PG and Syria and it's been working rather well usually.  On MP servers against AI the same.

v6,

boNes

 

PS Note, the key word is USUALLY