Performance/FM Development Status DCS 2.8.3.37556 Open Beta FEEDBACK

[WarthogOsl]

I feel like yaw is much better damped now.  Ever since the big FM update a year and a half ago(?), the plane seemed pretty sloppy with yaw oscillations, even at high speed and low AOA (for example, after performing an aileron roll, or rolling out a steep turn).   It almost seemed like the yaw SAS channel wasn't doing very much.   It seems much more locked down now.

[RustBelt]

16 minutes ago, WarthogOsl said:

I feel like yaw is much better damped now.  Ever since the big FM update a year and a half ago(?), the plane seemed pretty sloppy with yaw oscillations, even at high speed and low AOA (for example, after performing an aileron roll, or rolling out a steep turn).   It almost seemed like the yaw SAS channel wasn't doing very much.   It seems much more locked down now.

Might be related to the roll instability at high AoA. May have the right coupling now.

[Kageseigi]

8 hours ago, Quid said:

@maxsin72:  While there is the NATOPS that describes it, here's an unclassified, unlimited distribution document that studies deeper into the subject of wing rock in the F-14:

https://archive.org/details/DTIC_ADA243109

Describes AOA, severity related to AOA, configurations and how those affect wing rock, etc.  Might be good to review.

 

Thank you for this. A question I have about the introduction. It says:

Quote

If an F-14 experiences wing rock while engaged in an aerial encounter, especially at very high angle of attack, the only current recourse is to neutralize lateral and directional controls and momentarily reduce the angle of attack.

 

"Neutralize lateral" controls; I'm guessing that means centering the rudder. And does "directional controls" refer to the stick? So basically, hands and feet "off" until the plane stabilizes?

Also, did the F-14D suffer from this as much due to the DFCS?

And now, the truly important question... will studying wing rock vortices help me improve my beach volleyball float serve?

Edited March 12, 2023 by Kageseigi

[IronMike]

4 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

I'm very happy about MT and i also wrote HB, you all, has done a very good job with performance, then i asked about F14 roll. So totally no fight from my side and, after Fat Creason answer, all was ok.

So please, and this is not the first time i ask you, say to frosty2124 to be costructive or to stay quiet, thank you, otherwise i'll answer, because he started to be polemic, as already happened too many times in the recent past, and if you let him to be polemic it could mean you agree with his behaving

Thank you

 

He wasn't polemic Maxsin, you take everything as a personal attack. Yes, I agree with Frosty, he gave you good advice, twice, and you say I should tell him to stay quiet? This forum is not your personal playground, everyone shares it equally and the way we get all along with each other is to not take every bit of disagreement as a personal attack. And quite often you say "all was ok" - but that doesn't decide when someone else needs to stop giving their input. Then they say something, and instead of reacting to that level-headed, you feel attacked. You need to change your attitude, not him. It's always the others, not you. That's not ok. And we are seriously getting tired of this victim attitude of yours. It's happened "too many times", because you keep taking every bit of advice personal. It's your behavior I am not agreeing with. I hope I am being crystal clear on that. And no, this is still not a personal attack, I am trying to help you get along with everyone else better. If you don't want to take it, that's fine, but don't be surprised if this back and forth keeps happening "too many times" then... 

If you want to discuss this further, please PM me.

Edited March 12, 2023 by IronMike

[IronMike]

4 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Uhhh? We can pay attention to more than one thing at a time.

 What do you mean take first stage? 

It's a figurative speech, and it means we made a decision to wait, because the spotlight and major attention is now on MT, deservedly so. We'll publish it, when we feel the time is right, which will be soon enough. Whether that makes sense to you, is irrelevant, to put it bluntly, we have our reasons. Please realize that we neither invited you to give, nor need your approval to make decisions of any kind. There's a difference between constructive feedback (which we care about a lot) and disagreeing with almost everything we do, as you seem to be doing lately (which I hope you will understand we do not care about just as much). Thank you for your kind understanding.  

Edited March 12, 2023 by IronMike

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, Kageseigi said:

 

Thank you for this. A question I have about the introduction. It says:

 

"Neutralize lateral" controls; I'm guessing that means centering the rudder. And does "directional controls" refer to the stick? So basically, hands and feet "off" until the plane stabilizes?

Also, did the F-14D suffer from this as much due to the DFCS?

And now, the truly important question... will studying wing rock vortices help me improve my beach volleyball float serve?

 

Lateral refers to stick roll input (aka left/right) and directional controls is the rudder. To avoid wing rock at high AOA, it is best to roll with rudder only, and not use any lateral stick input at all, or you can relax the AOA, roll for exampel 90°, then pull again with the stick, and so on and so forth. The worst is cross-inputs, which means using rudder and lateral stick input at the same time, which can also lead to a departure from flight. Using lateral stick can also lead to roll reversal at high AOA, meaning you will command left roll input with your stick, but the aircraft will roll right.

Edited March 12, 2023 by IronMike

[Billy]

7 hours ago, IronMike said:

We don't need to take first stage all the time, this is ED's moment, they did such an amazing job with it.

Another reason why HB is awesome! Meanwhile another Dev team constantly want you to know it's "the Year of the Strike Eagle"

[Despayre]

4 hours ago, IronMike said:

To avoid wing rock at high AOA, it is best to roll with rudder only, and not use any lateral stick input at all...

 

Wow, I just tried that, and the difference is night and day. Using the rudder is a lot smoother. Can you explain why those 2 inputs have such different reactions? (this probably isn't the right place to ask that)

[Kageseigi]

4 hours ago, IronMike said:

Lateral refers to stick roll input (aka left/right) and directional controls is the rudder. To avoid wing rock at high AOA, it is best to roll with rudder only, and not use any lateral stick input at all, or you can relax the AOA, roll for exampel 90°, then pull again with the stick, and so on and so forth. The worst is cross-inputs, which means using rudder and lateral stick input at the same time, which can also lead to a departure from flight. Using lateral stick can also lead to roll reversal at high AOA, meaning you will command left roll input with your stick, but the aircraft will roll right.

 

Thank you! I had it completely backwards!

Being just a simulation, I wonder if it's possible to control the roll reversal, and if so, would adding rudder with roll reversal allow for a higher than normal roll rate?

[r4y30n]

Doing that would be the cross controlled flight Mike mentioned. Roll reversal is caused by adverse yaw and if you add a boot full of rudder in the same direction you’re going to end up in a flat spin, headed out to sea.

[wowbagger]

8 hours ago, IronMike said:

... it means we made a decision to wait, because the spotlight and major attention is now on MT, deservedly so...

 

HB are a class act.

Respect and support for the way you guys do what you do.

(There are a couple of modules I own which I dearly wish were in your stable.)

[Jayhawk1971]

@KageseigiI highly recommend the "Speed & Angels" campaign by Reflected. You'll learn about slow-speed-high AOA-maneuvering in the first mission, from none other than "Paco" Chierici. And a lot more about handling the F-14 correctly.

And tactics!

[Maxthrust]

TL-DR

square or round wheels on this one? 

[Glide]

Is there any reason to test Nvidia Control panel settings in MT?  Does the MT build have the new graphics pipeline?

Edit: sorry, didn't notice this was an F-14 thread.  Should go in main feedback.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Glide

[IronMike]

13 minutes ago, Glide said:

Is there any reason to test Nvidia Control panel settings in MT?  Does the MT build have the new graphics pipeline?

Edit: sorry, didn't notice this was an F-14 thread.  Should go in main feedback.

 

No worries. What I read some reported to have helped was to make sure that the MT exe in the control panel has threaded optimization turned from default auto to on.

[Glide]

10 minutes ago, IronMike said:

helped was to make sure that the MT exe in the control panel

I added the bin-MT folder to the control panel for testing so it wouldn't conflict with my normal settings.

[captain_dalan]

What seems to be wrong with the rolling? I had a short training fight and some stunts after that this afternoon, and didn't encounter anything peculiar. Mind you this was the IA, so roll SAS was off by default..... but i did push her up to 34 degrees alpha and she didn't depart on me
 

 

[IronMike]

2 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

What seems to be wrong with the rolling? I had a short training fight and some stunts after that this afternoon, and didn't encounter anything peculiar. Mind you this was the IA, so roll SAS was off by default..... but i did push her up to 34 degrees alpha and she didn't depart on me
 

 

There's nothing wrong with wing rock, to the contrary, we fixed it to be as it should again. It was not as pronounced as it should have been for a while.

[fat creason]

Wing rock has existed in the model since the beginning. Some improvements to the Yaw SAS intended to help directional stability in the landing configuration made it "too good", resulting in it preventing wing rock. I just had to detune it some to bring wing rock back. If you had turned yas SAS off in any previous version the wing rock would appear.

Edited March 14, 2023 by fat creason

[captain_dalan]

@IronMike and @fat creason
I think i figured out what he meant last night. I was doing some preliminary FM evaluation (looks roughly ok if a tad fast-ish max speed on the deck BTW, good job) when with the roll SAS on i tried to pull 3g's around 220 knots, something that requires 20-25 units AoA. Lo and behold, there it was, just as in the manual. Wing rock, and if you don't arrest it in time, it can get worst. Much worst, like 30+ degrees to each side. But it can be bypassed with proper coordination and clean stick inputs. I like it!  

[fat creason]

Yes, the wing rock can become divergent and is more severe with flaps, as described in the manual.

[Spurts]

Tomcat has even MORE character when flying now?  aweseome

[Schlomo1933]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb captain_dalan:

@IronMike and @fat creason
I think i figured out what he meant last night. I was doing some preliminary FM evaluation (looks roughly ok if a tad fast-ish max speed on the deck BTW, good job) when with the roll SAS on i tried to pull 3g's around 220 knots, something that requires 20-25 units AoA. Lo and behold, there it was, just as in the manual. Wing rock, and if you don't arrest it in time, it can get worst. Much worst, like 30+ degrees to each side. But it can be bypassed with proper coordination and clean stick inputs. I like it!  

Just a question: Why u let the roll SAS on while u pull so much AoA/Gs ? 
Roll SAS should be OFF for combat like maneuvers . It will lead to uncommanded maneuvers/departures. 
 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Schlomo1933

[captain_dalan]

4 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

Just a question: Why u let the roll SAS on while u pull so much AoA/Gs ? 
Roll SAS should be OFF for combat like maneuvers . It will lead to uncommanded maneuvers/departures. 
 

 

Testing purposes, handling and performance evaluation under different conditions. How else do you learn to fly the plane unless you push her to the limits? 

[draconus]

14 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

How else do you learn to fly the plane unless you push her to the limits?

RL pilots learn specifically to never push the limits.