DCS: AH-64D Flight Model discussion

[Phantom_Mark]

Well, I think I found a good part of the problem, beyond Pilot issues

Looking over at the throttle it looked like it was nestled into the FLY position quite nicely, graphically at least.

After messing with the lock out and observing the full travel of those levers it soon become apparent my fly position was actually needing a +20 curve to reach the full FLY position, I would estimate that probably equated to around 6% or 7% throttle setting below fly........could explain why I felt like I was dropping like a stone so often ?

Just had a quick flight to confirm things and things def feel better, so that is obviously a step in the right direction, thanks for the tips....

[MAXsenna]

15 hours ago, Phantom_Mark said:

Well, I think I found a good part of the problem, beyond Pilot issues

Looking over at the throttle it looked like it was nestled into the FLY position quite nicely, graphically at least.

After messing with the lock out and observing the full travel of those levers it soon become apparent my fly position was actually needing a +20 curve to reach the full FLY position, I would estimate that probably equated to around 6% or 7% throttle setting below fly........could explain why I felt like I was dropping like a stone so often ?

Just had a quick flight to confirm things and things def feel better, so that is obviously a step in the right direction, thanks for the tips....

Yup! Wish they could add a slider in the special options for those of us with throttles with detents, like the Warthog. 

Cheers! 

[Phantom_Mark]

Sorry if this is answered some place else.....

The boxed blue edges seem denote overrides by the flight systems when you engage some of the AP features, but quite often I see the yaw/rudder being manipulated even when I am not using any of the AP functions ?

Shown here is when I have radar height enabled, so an expected result is the that the collective becomes boxed by the blue edged box, prior to that the rudder was already boxed even tho I haven't  engaged any systems ?

[UncleStains]

When you're under 40 knots and, yaw rate is within some envelope, and you're not holding FTR, the heading hold is always active. This bugged me for a long time until I figured it out. This channel can be turned off, but once I understood the logic and worked with it instead of against it I find it useful.

 

 

 

[pii]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:03 PM, Phantom_Mark said:

I visually saw I was going into a bad space and immediately went full power and added a little collective to get away from the ground........nada.......

I know this won't sound right, but you have to lower the collective and fly out. I got this tip from a 64 pilot and it works like a charm if you're high enough above the ground. It's saved my ass many times

[jetsimace]

In Wags' DCS: AH-64D Roadmap, he mentioned, that
Improved Flight Model and Stability and Control Augmentation System (SCAS) Improvements
has already been delivered. Does that mean that we will not see any flight model improvements for the Apache any more?

[Belphe]

9 hours ago, jetsimace said:

In Wags' DCS: AH-64D Roadmap, he mentioned, that
Improved Flight Model and Stability and Control Augmentation System (SCAS) Improvements
has already been delivered. Does that mean that we will not see any flight model improvements for the Apache any more?

That's a bit of a worry. I was hoping for this line to go green last, especially that some SMEs are still pointing out inaccuracies in the FM. 

[Raptor9]

On 7/16/2023 at 2:49 PM, jetsimace said:

In Wags' DCS: AH-64D Roadmap, he mentioned, that
Improved Flight Model and Stability and Control Augmentation System (SCAS) Improvements
has already been delivered. Does that mean that we will not see any flight model improvements for the Apache any more?

There are still improvements that are being worked on.

The roadmaps are a way of letting players see some of the highlighted features that are in active development, instead of constantly pinging the community managers like BigNewy or NineLine to ask what the devs are working on. The roadmaps do not encompass all development, nor are they exclusionary one-off events. Just because a feature is added, doesn't mean it won't receive additional bug-fixes or refinements as the product matures.

There were some substantial changes that were being made to the flight model and SCAS systems in the spring, so it was a way of letting users know there was something coming, and then letting them know that an update was delivered. This is important for those players that may not regularly play DCS, like if they came back after a month or so and wanted to review what has changed since they last looked at the roadmap or last played the DCS AH-64D.

[Phantom_Mark]

Since getting my throttle and collective fully and properly calibrated I have had a ton more success - the only time I drop out the sky now is due to really bad piloting, seems the throttle especially is super sensitive to not being scaled to "Fly" correctly.

If I can just get rid of the rudder elasticity around centre and subsequent bounce I will be super happy

[SloppyDog]

39 minutes ago, Phantom_Mark said:

Since getting my throttle and collective fully and properly calibrated I have had a ton more success - the only time I drop out the sky now is due to really bad piloting, seems the throttle especially is super sensitive to not being scaled to "Fly" correctly.

If I can just get rid of the rudder elasticity around centre and subsequent bounce I will be super happy

Are you using a axis to control Throttle? Once you set it in the Fly position, you never touch it again. I don't set any axis to it, just click on them and leave there. After that, all controls are using the stick and collective.

[Phantom_Mark]

18 minutes ago, SloppyDog said:

Are you using a axis to control Throttle? Once you set it in the Fly position, you never touch it again. I don't set any axis to it, just click on them and leave there. After that, all controls are using the stick and collective.

That was the issue, my axis wasn't quite fully into the fly position, meaning I was easily giving up maybe 7-10% of throttle, despite it looking quite close visually, since aligning it 100% I have had zero issues.

[UncleStains]

2 hours ago, Phantom_Mark said:

If I can just get rid of the rudder elasticity around centre and subsequent bounce I will be super happy

I think the solution is to hold the trim release while making those fine pedal adjustments. I've been working on making this an automatic habit and it seems to work.

[Phantom_Mark]

I was starting to consider this approach, just feels super bouncy /springy otherwise, everything else is golden now.

[SloppyDog]

Ok, here we go again: is it my impression or the last update (July 24th) changed it, for the better? It seems much more stable now, I can go from on the ground, to light on wheels. to take off smoothly, without any great surprises or torque spikes needed. 

Anyone else saw the same or is it just placebo effect?

[Raptor9]

Nothing changed in the flight model. The only thing remotely related was the criteria for when Altitude Hold engages or disengages was refined, but this does not have any bearing on how the aircraft flies.

[firefox121]

hace 6 horas, SloppyDog dijo:

Ok, here we go again: is it my impression or the last update (July 24th) changed it, for the better? It seems much more stable now, I can go from on the ground, to light on wheels. to take off smoothly, without any great surprises or torque spikes needed. 

Anyone else saw the same or is it just placebo effect?

Think that all of us are starting to understand the apache, and we fly the beast much much better.......many hours fighting and practising with the helo makes perfection.....

For me , now is easier to fly, think because hours and hours taking off and landing.....a lot of fun indeed

[[DE] T-Bone]

On 7/18/2023 at 1:06 AM, Raptor9 said:

There are still improvements that are being worked on.

The roadmaps are a way of letting players see some of the highlighted features that are in active development, instead of constantly pinging the community managers like BigNewy or NineLine to ask what the devs are working on. The roadmaps do not encompass all development, nor are they exclusionary one-off events. Just because a feature is added, doesn't mean it won't receive additional bug-fixes or refinements as the product matures.

There were some substantial changes that were being made to the flight model and SCAS systems in the spring, so it was a way of letting users know there was something coming, and then letting them know that an update was delivered. This is important for those players that may not regularly play DCS, like if they came back after a month or so and wanted to review what has changed since they last looked at the roadmap or last played the DCS AH-64D.

And what improvements for the flight model are currently being worked on?

[skypickle]

Is anyone using ‘automatically enable fingerlifts’ in the special options?  It tends to make overtorquing more likely .

[Leg2ion]

On 7/1/2023 at 12:42 AM, kdfw said:

What with the real AH in flight making tactical takeoff/landings with the wind buffeting the aircraft, controlling the stick with finger tips would be pretty much impossible with this kind of control sensitivity?

You would be surprised. That is the whole idea behind AFCS/hydraulic control systems - it removes the need to 'gorilla' the controls to where you want them to be to remove pilot fatigue. Think old style vehicle steering with what we get nowadays with power assisted. Lighter and easier. 

 

On 7/1/2023 at 12:42 AM, kdfw said:

Control response shouldn't be instantaneous to the touch as the rotor blades flex with change to control input.

Why not? The blades are 'flexing' as part of their dynamic rotation dependent on where they are in that rotation. When you say shouldn't be instantaneous what sort of delay are you expecting? Having flown in a large variety of rotary wing aircraft for the most part a control input induces an attitude change, so stick left bank left with next to no lag unless there is major wear in the control run...

[Leg2ion]

On 7/16/2023 at 4:56 PM, pii said:

I know this won't sound right, but you have to lower the collective and fly out. I got this tip from a 64 pilot and it works like a charm if you're high enough above the ground. It's saved my ass many times

Yep - unfortunately its a bit of a misnomer where people think that pulling pole will get them out of a situation. All they end up doing is slowing the disc as the engines try to catch up by ways of the anticipators - working in lag. There is a need to allow the rotors to pick up speed, and to be honest does require a bit of faith on the part of the driver,  which for the most part will only happen by decreasing collective initially to 'feather' the blades allowing them to increase speed then pulling up..

[kenbou]

Sorry for the machine translation.
I will write my thoughts on the difficulty of operating this aircraft.
The rotor disk or aircraft tilts too fast for cyclic pitch control.
However, if you reduce the sensitivity of the joystick, you will not have enough stick travel to counteract the lift imbalance.
Sufficient cyclic pitch change is necessary for lift imbalance, but
When adding a cyclic pitch change from a lift balanced state, the rotor disk or aircraft tilts too quickly.
It feels like there is no gyroscopic effect or damping effect due to the rotation of the rotor disk itself, or there is too little.
Even considering that it is difficult to operate with a joystick that has a lower resolution and a shorter length than the cyclic stick of the actual aircraft, I feel that there is not enough damping.
DCS UH-1H Huey etc. have this balance properly and do not have this difficulty.

[bradmick]

You can’t apply the flight characteristics of the Huey to the Apache. The Huey has no SCAS, but hydraulically boosted mechanical flight controls directly connected to the swash plate. There is a natural control lag that exists in the Huey. The Apaches command augmentation system is designed to do away with that control lag, which means when you make an input the output is functionally immediate. The real Apache responds at the speed of thought. It took pilots coming over from the old TH-67 a little while to get used to the immediate response the Apaches flight controls have, because the 67 had the same rotor head type (semi rigid underslung) and flight control scheme of the Huey. 

[kenbou]

thank you for your reply.
If it is not appropriate to compare it with the Huey, which has a very different rotor head, why not compare it with something like the MD500, which has agile characteristics but is not a DCS model.
Set a cyclic pitch control movement amount sufficient to cancel out lift imbalance during movement such as when moving forward,
If you are flying or hovering in a constant attitude with the lift imbalance resolved, the lift difference due to the additional cyclic pitch control will make the rotor disk feel like it is tilting too quickly.
Rather than there being no delay, it feels like there is no gyroscopic effect due to the rotation of the rotor disk.
I feel that the rotating body does not have any effect to counteract the tilt.
I imagine that if you had an aircraft with rotor blades that were very light compared to the lift it produced, it would have such characteristics.
Isn't there a gyro effect caused by the rotor?

[bradmick]

1 hour ago, kenbou said:

thank you for your reply.
If it is not appropriate to compare it with the Huey, which has a very different rotor head, why not compare it with something like the MD500, which has agile characteristics but is not a DCS model.
Set a cyclic pitch control movement amount sufficient to cancel out lift imbalance during movement such as when moving forward,
If you are flying or hovering in a constant attitude with the lift imbalance resolved, the lift difference due to the additional cyclic pitch control will make the rotor disk feel like it is tilting too quickly.
Rather than there being no delay, it feels like there is no gyroscopic effect due to the rotation of the rotor disk.
I feel that the rotating body does not have any effect to counteract the tilt.
I imagine that if you had an aircraft with rotor blades that were very light compared to the lift it produced, it would have such characteristics.
Isn't there a gyro effect caused by the rotor?

No, because the md500 doesn’t have the command augmentation system.

 

And yes, there is a gyro effect, but it’s used to ensure the blade deflects at the correct location to get the desired output. To roll right, the input is put in at the tail, to roll left the input is put in at the nose, because those inputs will manifest 90 degrees later in the plane of rotation. But there is no large and noticeable pendulum effect, because the CAS makes the input you make immediate. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by bradmick

[admiki]

1 hour ago, kenbou said:

thank you for your reply.
If it is not appropriate to compare it with the Huey, which has a very different rotor head, why not compare it with something like the MD500, which has agile characteristics but is not a DCS model.
Set a cyclic pitch control movement amount sufficient to cancel out lift imbalance during movement such as when moving forward,
If you are flying or hovering in a constant attitude with the lift imbalance resolved, the lift difference due to the additional cyclic pitch control will make the rotor disk feel like it is tilting too quickly.
Rather than there being no delay, it feels like there is no gyroscopic effect due to the rotation of the rotor disk.
I feel that the rotating body does not have any effect to counteract the tilt.
I imagine that if you had an aircraft with rotor blades that were very light compared to the lift it produced, it would have such characteristics.
Isn't there a gyro effect caused by the rotor?

Are you flying Apache in real life? Or MD500?