Support for modders

[crixxx]

Hi, is it possible that you would somehow unlock the ability to mod your planes? I'm not talking about releasing the whole code, but about some small pieces, e.g. the ability to add additional pylons, change the maximum amount of fuel taken, subtle changes in the flight model (higher weight of the plane), etc. Modifications such as SuperBug or F-16I Sufa are really interesting  and they have potential, but they lack a few things (and I'm not talking about AESA radars here), but they lack additional pylons, larger bags, etc. In my opinion, this solution has its advantages, I know a few examples where someone who had a free version of DCS bought the F-18C to fly the Super Hornet. I know you can create a separate mod with your own systems, flight model etc. but it takes a lot of time. Consider it, because it may pay off for you. The community will love you even more and good PR is worth its weight in gold these days.

So, this is my wish. 

Sorry for my bad english.

[SharpeXB]

DCS isn’t really about fantasy aircraft. Players can’t just create their own flight models.

The features you see on the DCS aircraft are specific to those variants or block numbers. These already require years of work so adding additional variants is something that just doesn’t seem feasible. Why work on additional variants when the current versions are still incomplete in Early Access? I believe the Mirage F-1 has variants planned but that’s the only one afaik. 
It’s possible for modders to create community modules but again this is also complex and time consuming due to the detail involved.  
Many modern aircraft such as the Super Hornet (search the forum) are classified or don’t have enough open source material to allow for an authentic module. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by SharpeXB

[crixxx]

Thank you for your answer. I understand your point of view. I don't want fantasy aircraft, but I would like to fly something newer, improved. An example is the Super hornet - better range, two more pylons. As I wrote, I don't want a plane with AESA radar to fly in multiplayer to destroy players in their leagcy hornet.

On one of the topics on the forum I read that ED is not planning a Super hornet yet, so the modders came out against it. It would be nice to be able to use those two extra pylons. 

[Mars Exulte]

44 minutes ago, crixxx said:

Thank you for your answer. I understand your point of view. I don't want fantasy aircraft, but I would like to fly something newer, improved. An example is the Super hornet - better range, two more pylons. As I wrote, I don't want a plane with AESA radar to fly in multiplayer to destroy players in their leagcy hornet.

 There's nothing stopping you from making simple modifications now, but as far as your request goes, it's not possible to subtlety tweak the FMs on the major modules because they are not table based as in many older games. It's not particularly simple to mod a LOT of the things, because they're tied into the model or physics. There isn't any way around that, except to use the simpler aircraft as your base or build your own.

44 minutes ago, crixxx said:

On one of the topics on the forum I read that ED is not planning a Super hornet yet, so the modders came out against it. It would be nice to be able to use those two extra pylons. 

 There is a lot more to it than just two more pylons, thus the intensity of actually designing modules or making mods around here. There is a Super Hornet mod available already, probably several, AFAIK. It isn't particularly easy to do that sort of thing and never will be because this is not a particularly simple environment.

[upyr1]

On 3/22/2023 at 3:20 PM, crixxx said:

Hi, is it possible that you would somehow unlock the ability to mod your planes? I'm not talking about releasing the whole code, but about some small pieces, e.g. the ability to add additional pylons, change the maximum amount of fuel taken, subtle changes in the flight model (higher weight of the plane), etc. Modifications such as SuperBug or F-16I Sufa are really interesting  and they have potential, but they lack a few things (and I'm not talking about AESA radars here), but they lack additional pylons, larger bags, etc. In my opinion, this solution has its advantages, I know a few examples where someone who had a free version of DCS bought the F-18C to fly the Super Hornet. I know you can create a separate mod with your own systems, flight model etc. but it takes a lot of time. Consider it, because it may pay off for you. The community will love you even more and good PR is worth its weight in gold these days.

So, this is my wish. 

Sorry for my bad english.

 

 

 

Your English is a lot better than my Polish. Which is nonextant.  There are quite a few mods out there, I do agree we need better mod support, for example I think it would be better to have a mod manager and the ability to assign a stand in aircraft. some people have been asking for a mod development kit to make it easier to mod. I know ED has to ensure DCS is a quality product, as long as long as the developers get their money and there is an integrity check so that you can't sneak an F-4 Phantom 2000 variant with the F/A-18's radar and AMRAAMs in a cold war server  I'm open for any mod. There is a star wars mod out there so there is room for fantasy as well as reality. I see mods as the answer to lack of modern red for

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by upyr1

[FlankerKiller]

13 hours ago, upyr1 said:

Your English is a lot better than my Polish. Which is nonextant.  There are quite a few mods out there, I do agree we need better mod support, for example I think it would be better to have a mod manager and the ability to assign a stand in aircraft. some people have been asking for a mod development kit to make it easier to mod. I know ED has to ensure DCS is a quality product, as long as long as the developers get their money and there is an integrity check so that you can't sneak an F-4 Phantom 2000 variant with the F/A-18's radar and AMRAAMs in a cold war server  I'm open for any mod. There is a star wars mod out there so there is room for fantasy as well as reality. I see mods as the answer to lack of modern red for

 

 

I'm sorry but what your asking for would dystoy DCS. I understand for many DCS is just a fun flight based combat game. No different from War Thunder, or VTOL VR. But many of us are aviation enthusiasts. And for use DCS is a way to enjoy the most realistic recreation of these often ironic machines available. Is it perfect, no. But it's alot more realistic then most. And yes i know radar and ECM is simplified. But there are good reasons for that. Would different variants enrich DCS? Certainly they would, and many aircraft have them. The A-10C, the F-14, the P-47D, the F1, and the coming F-4E all story different variants of the same airframe. I'm sure that future modules will continue this trend, although likely and rightfully not for free. But it needs to be done by the professionals with the SME and in accordance with realism. Anything less turns DCS into at best a survey sim level game, and at worst an flight based arcade game. There are other games in that genre. It's a genre that DCS was never designed to be in and is not suited for. Let DCS be DCS. The realism can be frustrating at times. But it also is what makes DCS special to so many players. 

[NineLine]

On 3/22/2023 at 1:20 PM, crixxx said:

Hi, is it possible that you would somehow unlock the ability to mod your planes? I'm not talking about releasing the whole code, but about some small pieces, e.g. the ability to add additional pylons, change the maximum amount of fuel taken, subtle changes in the flight model (higher weight of the plane), etc. Modifications such as SuperBug or F-16I Sufa are really interesting  and they have potential, but they lack a few things (and I'm not talking about AESA radars here), but they lack additional pylons, larger bags, etc. In my opinion, this solution has its advantages, I know a few examples where someone who had a free version of DCS bought the F-18C to fly the Super Hornet. I know you can create a separate mod with your own systems, flight model etc. but it takes a lot of time. Consider it, because it may pay off for you. The community will love you even more and good PR is worth its weight in gold these days.

So, this is my wish. 

Sorry for my bad english.

Sorry we have no plans to support the altering of official DCS products, we do allow the creation of mods and this should be enough to try and create whatever you would like. Thanks. 

[Mars Exulte]

6 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

I'm sorry but what your asking for would dystoy DCS. I understand for many DCS is just a fun flight based combat game. No different from War Thunder, or VTOL VR. But many of us are aviation enthusiasts. And for use DCS is a way to enjoy the most realistic recreation of these often ironic machines available. Is it perfect, no. But it's alot more realistic then most. And yes i know radar and ECM is simplified. But there are good reasons for that. Would different variants enrich DCS? Certainly they would, and many aircraft have them. The A-10C, the F-14, the P-47D, the F1, and the coming F-4E all story different variants of the same airframe. I'm sure that future modules will continue this trend, although likely and rightfully not for free. But it needs to be done by the professionals with the SME and in accordance with realism. Anything less turns DCS into at best a survey sim level game, and at worst an flight based arcade game. There are other games in that genre. It's a genre that DCS was never designed to be in and is not suited for. Let DCS be DCS. The realism can be frustrating at times. But it also is what makes DCS special to so many players. 

 None of this has anything to do with mods. 99% of games out there support mods to some extent or another, some of them rely heavily on mods even. All that aside, the presence or absence of mods has exactly zero effect on your gameplay experience personally. There are ALREADY a metric ton of flyable aircraft mods, including several to the level of paid for modules (A-4, T-45, and several mods became full modules like the MB-339 and others) and it has exactly zero effect on you unless you A. Use one of them or B. Play on a server that does, both of which are completely optional.

 He didn't ask for the ability to rip off paid for content. He's talking about better mod support in general, ie making it more convenient to use. It's not going to ''destroy'' DCS or affect your experience one way or the other. Like literally every game on the planet, in order to use mods on a server, they have to be used by everyone.

[upyr1]

7 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

I'm sorry but what your asking for would destoy DCS. I understand for many DCS is just a fun flight based combat game. No different from War Thunder, or VTOL VR. But many of us are aviation enthusiasts. And for use DCS is a way to enjoy the most realistic recreation of these often ironic machines available. Is it perfect, no. But it's alot more realistic then most. And yes i know radar and ECM is simplified. But there are good reasons for that. Would different variants enrich DCS? Certainly they would, and many aircraft have them. The A-10C, the F-14, the P-47D, the F1, and the coming F-4E all story different variants of the same airframe. I'm sure that future modules will continue this trend, although likely and rightfully not for free. But it needs to be done by the professionals with the SME and in accordance with realism. Anything less turns DCS into at best a survey sim level game, and at worst an flight based arcade game. There are other games in that genre. It's a genre that DCS was never designed to be in and is not suited for. Let DCS be DCS. The realism can be frustrating at times. But it also is what makes DCS special to so many players. 

 

 

 

Mods haven't destroyed DCS yet, in fact there are some mods like the A-4 https://heclak.github.io/community-a4e-c/ which are as good as the commercially developed ones. There are some mods that aren't. You don't have to use them or go on a server that does. The post and I brought up mods that were variants of existing aircraft. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by upyr1

[SharpeXB]

The problem with these free community mod aircraft is that they prevent official commercial products from being viable. We should all be glad there’s not a free community F-15E. You’ll likely never see an official A-4 or UH-60 now that there are free versions. I find it astonishing that people would put so much time and effort into something they can’t get paid for.

Edited March 25, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Daerchanar]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem with these free community mod aircraft is that they prevent official commercial products from being viable. We should all be glad there’s not a free community F-15E. You’ll likely never see an official A-4 or UH-60 now that there are free versions. I find it astonishing that people would put so much time and effort into something they can’t get paid for.

 

No, not true. Any official studio can get a license and produce a module that already or not exist as free mod. Quality wise, people will almost always pick the best quality product, which is also a big incentive for studios to put their efforts into making its paid version, a lot better. Not difficult really for a professional team to beat a freetimer modder at this. Sorry.

If there is no A-4 paid version for you up to today, it's NOT because there is a free mod, it's simply because no studio picked it up yet.

One thing about mods is that they don't develop new tech. They rely exclusively on existing core features, so they can never be better, quality wise, then SDK holders'.

Even when modders reached a level of quality comparable to official products, the case of Assetto Corsa, that NEVER prevented official DLCs, even sporting the same products, to be sold at premium and at large. Some of these mods even became official DLCs btw.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Daerchanar

[crixxx]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem with these free community mod aircraft is that they prevent official commercial products from being viable. We should all be glad there’s not a free community F-15E. You’ll likely never see an official A-4 or UH-60 now that there are free versions. I find it astonishing that people would put so much time and effort into something they can’t get paid for.

 

Sorry, but I don't agree. We have the Eurofighter mod and there is an official Eurofighter in production by HB. And to be honest, if the super hornet mod was almost perfect, I'd buy anyway official version by ED.

 

13 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

I'm sorry but what your asking for would dystoy DCS. I understand for many DCS is just a fun flight based combat game. No different from War Thunder, or VTOL VR. But many of us are aviation enthusiasts. And for use DCS is a way to enjoy the most realistic recreation of these often ironic machines available. Is it perfect, no. But it's alot more realistic then most. And yes i know radar and ECM is simplified. But there are good reasons for that. Would different variants enrich DCS? Certainly they would, and many aircraft have them. The A-10C, the F-14, the P-47D, the F1, and the coming F-4E all story different variants of the same airframe. I'm sure that future modules will continue this trend, although likely and rightfully not for free. But it needs to be done by the professionals with the SME and in accordance with realism. Anything less turns DCS into at best a survey sim level game, and at worst an flight based arcade game. There are other games in that genre. It's a genre that DCS was never designed to be in and is not suited for. Let DCS be DCS. The realism can be frustrating at times. But it also is what makes DCS special to so many players. 

I love realism, that's why I love DCS. In War Thunder, it annoys me that tanks or planes are nerfed so that players of other nations have a chance. But that's not what War Thunder is about here. I spend 99% of my time flying in the missions I create, where I wouldn't bother anyone with modifications. How would allowing easier modding destroy DCS? Yes, if you fly on servers, then absolutely, but then it's the owner of the server that allows modifications or not. And even if, what would change CTF in F-16? It will extend the flight time by 40% and allow you to take 2 additional bombs. But it won't make it destroy you with a laser like ADFX-01 Morgan. My dream is a full Super Hornet, Lightning II or Raptor module. Today, it's impossible, but mods can give me a substitute of it.

 

13 hours ago, NineLine said:

Sorry we have no plans to support the altering of official DCS products, we do allow the creation of mods and this should be enough to try and create whatever you would like. Thanks. 

I'm sorry to hear that. You've probably discussed this before, but times are changing. Games or simulations that support the work of modders are highly appreciated by players. Of course, I'm not saying you're not.  But you would get even more. Could you at least discuss this again with each other and with the players?

On 3/24/2023 at 4:01 AM, upyr1 said:

Your English is a lot better than my Polish. Which is nonextant.  There are quite a few mods out there, I do agree we need better mod support, for example I think it would be better to have a mod manager and the ability to assign a stand in aircraft. some people have been asking for a mod development kit to make it easier to mod. I know ED has to ensure DCS is a quality product, as long as long as the developers get their money and there is an integrity check so that you can't sneak an F-4 Phantom 2000 variant with the F/A-18's radar and AMRAAMs in a cold war server  I'm open for any mod. There is a star wars mod out there so there is room for fantasy as well as reality. I see mods as the answer to lack of modern red for

 

 

Thank you, I'm trying my best.  Translator helps a lot I'm also open to modifications, but from what I read, probably most are not. And I fully understand them, because I would not like to meet X-wing on the server in my F-18. But on the other hand, who would mind a server where X-Wing and TIE Fighter fight each other over Syria? Who would mind a Super Hornet not on the server, but in the mission editor? I know that people who love realism want the simulation to be as realistic as possible, but sometimes you can step away from that for a while and immerse yourself in fantasy. You can say - hey crixxx, find yourself another game where you can do this - but I will tell them that there are no other games like DCS.

On 3/23/2023 at 11:32 PM, Mars Exulte said:

 There's nothing stopping you from making simple modifications now, but as far as your request goes, it's not possible to subtlety tweak the FMs on the major modules because they are not table based as in many older games. It's not particularly simple to mod a LOT of the things, because they're tied into the model or physics. There isn't any way around that, except to use the simpler aircraft as your base or build your own.

 There is a lot more to it than just two more pylons, thus the intensity of actually designing modules or making mods around here. There is a Super Hornet mod available already, probably several, AFAIK. It isn't particularly easy to do that sort of thing and never will be because this is not a particularly simple environment.

I get that, but look at mods like SuperBug or Sufa. In the first one, you can fly the F/A-18E/F or the Growler, instead of the regular UFC you have a digital one that imitates the real one well (IMO). Recently, the ability to use additional pylons has been added, unfortunately at the expense of the right pylon. In the Sufa mod, you have the option to fly the same aircraft with a friend as WSO. You can reconfigure the aircraft by adding a CTF or changing the tail. Only a few details are missing to full happiness.

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, Daerchanar said:

No, not true.

ED stated in this interview that the free mods affect their decisions about which aircraft to produce. Go to question 45  

Whats silly about putting so much effort into mod making is that if somebody really has the skill to make a paid product, then do that. DCS is totally open to those.

 

6 hours ago, Daerchanar said:

Not difficult really for a professional team to beat a freetimer modder at this

It’s much more difficult to create a commercial module since all the work needs to be original. Rights are needed for any content used etc. Let alone the quality that needs to be achieved.

With a few exceptions, most of the mod aircraft out there though are junk and really a waste of time for everyone involved. What’s the point? To fill the game up with crappy planes? I’d rather have fewer more authentic official ones. And the mods which are higher quality don’t make sense either because the team could have made them official if they’d approached them in the right way. Seems they have more enthusiasm than sense. Putting all that work into something you’ll never get paid for. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by SharpeXB

[upyr1]

9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem with these free community mod aircraft is that they prevent official commercial products from being viable. We should all be glad there’s not a free community F-15E. You’ll likely never see an official A-4 or UH-60 now that there are free versions. I find it astonishing that people would put so much time and effort into something they can’t get paid for.

 

 

 

 

 

We might never see a commercial A-4, but yet we have a good chunk of a Vietnam-era carrier air wing on the way. Heatblur has the A-6, then after the F-4E is done there will be some Navy Phantoms, Then Flying Iron has the A-7, Crossrail is producing the A-1, and Magnitude has the F-8 Crusader in the works.  As India Foxtrot and Grinnelli show a modder can become a professional developer. Let's face reality here is a photo of the DCS wishlist 

 

There are some aircraft that won't become official modules. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by upyr1

[SharpeXB]

4 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

We might never see a commercial A-4, but yet we have a good chunk of a Vietnam era carrier air wing on the way. Heatblur has the A-6, then after the F-4E is done there will be some Navy Phantoms, Then Flying Iron has the A-7, Crossrail is producing the A-1, and Magnatude has the F-8 Crusader in the works. 

Sure. Those are all great as official modules. 

4 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

As India Foxtrot and Grinnelli show a modder can become a professional developer.

Yes, If they’ve got the ability to make real content, do it. But making mods is a waste of time. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by SharpeXB

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

ED stated in this interview that the free mods affect their decisions about which aircraft to produce

 

It’s much more difficult to create a commercial module since all the work needs to be original. Rights are needed for any content used etc. 

 

 

 

I'm not surprised that modules affect what gets produced. However, I really don't see this as something that works both ways. On one hand I really doubt we'll ever see an official DCS Skyhawk or Goshawk module. However, I think both modules helped drive sales of the Super Carrier and I also believe that the Skyhawk will also help funnel people to the Vietnam-era birds. Then there are modules like the MB-399 and C-130 which used to be mods. 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure. Those are all great as official modules. 

2 hours ago, upyr1 said:

 

 

 

I don't think their sales will be hurt by the A-4 one iota. In fact I expect to see people people taking the A-4 into a Vietnam era server then decide to get the other planes as well. 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Yes, If they’ve got the ability to make real content, do it. But making mods is a waste of time. 

 

 

 

Not if the mod enables you to develop the skills to make official content or if you simply enjoy making them

Edited March 25, 2023 by upyr1

[upyr1]

8 hours ago, crixxx said:

I'm sorry to hear that. You've probably discussed this before, but times are changing. Games or simulations that support the work of modders are highly appreciated by players. Of course, I'm not saying you're not.  But you would get even more. Could you at least discuss this again with each other and with the players?

 

While they might not be willing to change the way they support mods there is already a lot of mod support 

[Mars Exulte]

20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem with these free community mod aircraft is that they prevent official commercial products from being viable.

 Debatable, honestly improbable. A paid mod doesn't even preclude another team also making a paid mod for the same aircraft, which has nearly occurred several times already and possibly is happening now with the Su-17/22.

20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

We should all be glad there’s not a free community F-15E. You’ll likely never see an official A-4 or UH-60 now that there are free versions.

 A-4 is as likely or not as anything else, the UH-60 is likely to be done regardless eventually, just from its popularity and wide service history.

20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I find it astonishing that people would put so much time and effort into something they can’t get paid for.

 That is an excessively dull and passionless approach to life.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

A paid mod doesn't even preclude another team also making a paid mod for the same aircraft

Certainly not a very good business plan. I don’t think ED exercises any control over 3rd parties in this regard though. But two companies making the same mod would doom both of them. 

1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

A-4 is as likely or not as anything else

They literally said they wouldn’t make an A-4 now. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

That is an excessively dull and passionless approach to life.

Passion for your work and getting paid for it are not mutually exclusive. 

[tigayot228]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

They literally said they wouldn’t make an A-4 now. 

Ed said, but none 3d party said.

Ed too said none east bloc plane, none transport and here is C-130 e Mig-23!

UH-60 modder is now worker Polychop.

Mods are showcase when is talent modder. Hint hint Little bird tech demo, A4.

 

[WinterH]

17 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But making mods is a waste of time. 

Well backwards posts around here isn't anything uncommon, but today you take the cake

This is asinine.

[upyr1]

56 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

They literally said they wouldn’t make an A-4 now. 

 

I know ED has said so but I don't think that has been a loss for the community. There is basically a Vietnam-era carrier airwing in development. I expect people who have the A-4 would be in line to buy a Vietnam map 

 

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Passion for your work and getting paid for it are not mutually exclusive. 

 

True but in order to get your skills up to that level you need to practice. 

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, WinterH said:

Well backwards posts around here isn't anything uncommon, but today you take the cake

This is asinine.

It’s a waste because if someone is going to put in that amount of effort they should do it to make an official module. 
They’re a waste of time for the players as well. They can only be used in limited ways within the game. Hardly any public multiplayer incorporates these (and doing so would be a nightmare) or any DLC campaigns etc. plus they create a giant headache with regard to bug reporting or troubleshooting. Or they can cause bugs themselves. Those troubles aren’t worth it for having fantasy or amateur quality extra modules IMO

Edited March 26, 2023 by SharpeXB

[FlankerKiller]

On 3/25/2023 at 9:31 AM, upyr1 said:

but yet we have a good chunk of a Vietnam-era carrier air wing on the way. Heatblur has the A-6, then after the F-4E is done there will be some Navy Phantoms, Then Flying Iron has the A-7, Crossrail is producing the A-1, and Magnitude has the F-8 Crusader in the works. 

I'm sorry but there are no Vietnam era aircraft on the way. The aircraft you listed are mostly post Vietnam blocks that feature significant changes to the Vietnam era jets. If I remember correctly even the F-8 is a post Vietnam model more inline with the Mig-21bis, which is also post Vietnam. It would be like saying that the F-18C we currently have is a Desert storm aircraft. The same for the Viper. Nether are even close the their Desert storm couterparts system and capability wise. The only kinda Vietnam aircraft in DCS at the moment is the Mig-19, with the A-1, and the F-100 on the way. Trust me I want DCS Vietnam as much if not more then the next guy. But for awhile to come it just isn't a thing.