[NO LONGER PASSES IC] Improved Contact Dot Spotting (Updated v1.1)

[Delta302]

15 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Folks treat each other with respect. 

Nineline has added a poll and we are looking at feedback. The IC issue is being worked on also. 

thanks

Worked on, how? I think it's pretty clear from this thread and the poll so far that most think this is at least a step in the right direction. It doesn't give anyone an unfair advantage. Why would you want to make sure the IC picks it up unless/until you guys have a solution? 

I love this sim. I love the visual fidelity that it's capable of - and I play for immersion. Almost everything I've done to upgrade my PC/setup is purely to make the game look better - and users like myself suffer when doing MP because whether an opponent is running a potato, or just sandbagging their settings - they get a very clear advantage over me for spotting. 

I've only just recently started flying warbirds, but I can't tell you how many times I've had friends running 1080 or lower call out contacts that they can very clearly see that don't even show up to me because I'm running 2k. As many others have pointed out, it's the worst part of flying warbirds and it's something that quite literally everyone I've spoken to about mentions as being "completely borked." Everyone on the servers says "gotta turn your resolution down." ...it shouldn't be that way. It's no different than the FPS players that used to turn their settings all the way down so they could see people in grass and bushes and stuff.

I'm not trying to rake you guys over the coals...but c'mon. 

[Callsign JoNay]

26 minutes ago, Delta302 said:

Why would you want to make sure the IC picks it up unless/until you guys have a solution? 

Because if there's a way to modify the dots to what the OP has done, then there is a way to modify them even bigger and bolder which can be exploited. ED is right to lock it down in the IC, and hopefully they are implementing a new version of the contact dot similar to the OP's mod.

[Vakarian]

Would like to add my observations.

Playing on 3440x1440 resolution and I've always struggled with finding stuff that's close to me. I refuse to use zoom as I find it immersion breaking and just use the default FOV and zoom settings when you hop into the cockpit. With this mod I'm now able to track other aircraft in the pattern around airfield, I can quite easily now track other aircraft in a dogfight and in general, stuff that's close to me (<5-ish NM) is now a lot easier to see which I like and honestly expect.

I often drive by local airport on my way to home and I can easily spot A320 size passenger jets coming in to land from ~10 km, but without this mod I've struggled to find KC-130s when coming in for an AAR and only spotting them ~2 NM when actively watching TCN for the positioning.

 

One downside that I noticed is for example, AIM-54s have gotten the same treatment (I guess other missiles too, I've only tested with 54s) so some refinement would be nice. 

 

I honestly thing ED should take some time, see what this mod brings to the table and basically add its functionalities to default DCS installation after they lock the file behind IC (right decision to do, btw). It really makes no sense at all that the higher resolution you have (because you want better visuals, who doesn't), the worst spotting you get due to way how objects are currently rendered.

[Why485]

27 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

Would like to add my observations.

Playing on 3440x1440 resolution and I've always struggled with finding stuff that's close to me. I refuse to use zoom as I find it immersion breaking and just use the default FOV and zoom settings when you hop into the cockpit. With this mod I'm now able to track other aircraft in the pattern around airfield, I can quite easily now track other aircraft in a dogfight and in general, stuff that's close to me (<5-ish NM) is now a lot easier to see which I like and honestly expect.

I often drive by local airport on my way to home and I can easily spot A320 size passenger jets coming in to land from ~10 km, but without this mod I've struggled to find KC-130s when coming in for an AAR and only spotting them ~2 NM when actively watching TCN for the positioning.

One downside that I noticed is for example, AIM-54s have gotten the same treatment (I guess other missiles too, I've only tested with 54s) so some refinement would be nice. 

I honestly thing ED should take some time, see what this mod brings to the table and basically add its functionalities to default DCS installation after they lock the file behind IC (right decision to do, btw). It really makes no sense at all that the higher resolution you have (because you want better visuals, who doesn't), the worst spotting you get due to way how objects are currently rendered.

This is unfortunately one of the problems of a pixel dot based solution. The dot will always be the same size, and have the same fade rules regardless of the size of the object under it. However, I do think it's fixable.

If an object size was passed into the shader, then the fade distances could be pushed in/out accordingly. This would solve the problem of large aircraft such as C-17s and E-3s being invisible from distances they shouldn't be, and smaller objects such as missile being too easy to see at too far a distance.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Why485

[Blackdog]

40 minutes ago, Why485 said:

This is unfortunately one of the problems of a pixel dot based solution. The dot will always be the same size, and have the same fade rules regardless of the size of the object under it. However, I do think it's fixable.

If an object size was passed into the shader, then the fade distances could be pushed in/out accordingly. This would solve the problem of large aircraft such as C-17s and E-3s being invisible from distances they shouldn't be, and smaller objects such as missile being too easy to see at too far a distance.

 

Using fade as a second variable to fine-tune visibility does seem the obvious solution, and shouldn't be hard for them to implement.   Seems like ED has pretty much been served a fix to a major shortcoming of their simulation on a silver platter here -- hopefully they choose to partake.

[Moezilla]

Thanks for your work on this mod @Why485

It definitely accomplishes it's stated aims of mitigating the higher-than-1080p spotting penalty, and capping dot visibility at a reasonable limit.

Hopefully this mod, plus the community poll and feedback, will inform ED's next changes to the dot shader, as this file will inevitably become part of the IC system very soon.

[lone82]

The whole pure scripts thing needs an overhaul. You adjust the autostart in a gazelle to not turn on the lights and .... IC Check Fail!... it's just dumb

[lone82]

On 4/18/2023 at 5:04 AM, BIGNEWY said:

Folks treat each other with respect. 

Nineline has added a poll and we are looking at feedback. The IC issue is being worked on also. 

thanks

Link to poll?

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by lone82

[Sarowa]

@lone82it's at the top of the page

[Coxy_99]

Going to get myself a 10 points here, But did we moan about spotting units back in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016? Nope so nothing is really "Broken" or "Exploiting" (My fav word in this community)

 

P.S i hope ED IC the zoom function because thats also cheating, Your eyes dont zoom in 

[Mangooo]

but my my 120 dont hit

[Renko]

4 hours ago, Coxy_99 said:

Going to get myself a 10 points here, But did we moan about spotting units back in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016? Nope so nothing is really "Broken" or "Exploiting" (My fav word in this community)

 

P.S i hope ED IC the zoom function because thats also cheating, Your eyes dont zoom in 

Its an ongoing issue since many years
Just do a quick google search and:
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=dcs+smart+scaling+site%3Aforum.dcs.world

[MrExplosion]

Tested this yesterday on VR with my G2 headset. Imo it looks terrible - contacts render as giant bricks and will stay bricks until really close, making it impossible to ID. Also take all the skill out of spotting. Pls add this to IC asap.

[ZioSam]

G2 and 4090 user here. To me with the mod contacts that are mid to close range are way easier and so way better to spot and track. Totally a step in the proper direction and imho blocking this behind the IC is totally idiotic since it should be worked and iterated more into the base game before. As usual a member of the community was able to provide what ED wasn't able to. I hope this time we won't lose another member for the stubbornness of the guys in the command room, since many prominent members doing scripting for the community as the guys behind overlord bot and others already expressed their frustration toward ED management and jumped the boat

[MrExplosion]

3 minutes ago, ZioSam said:

G2 and 4090 user here. To me with the mod contacts that are mid to close range are way easier and so way better to spot and track. Totally a step in the proper direction and imho blocking this behind the IC is totally idiotic since it should be worked and iterated more into the base game before. As usual a member of the community was able to provide what ED wasn't able to. I hope this time we won't lose another member for the stubbornness of the guys in the command room, since many prominent members doing scripting for the community as the guys behind overlord bot and others already expressed their frustration toward ED management and jumped the boat

You don't even realize it is totally necessary to "block this behind IC"?
Spotting is a skill. Trying to level the ground for all resolutions is a good thing per se, but this script just takes all the skill out of it.

[Why485]

I've released an updated version of the mod. The update can be found on User Files:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3330454/

The updated mod (v.1.1) contains two changes:

1. The dots correctly snap to the pixel grid and don't require MSAA to work as intended
2. The near and far ranges have both been adjusted based on feedback and my own experience while testing the mod

Corrected dot rendering and no longer requiring MSAA

This is the most important change of the update.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I had noticed that when playing with MSAA disabled, the dots were flickering and not rendering correctly. The math I was using didn't correctly snap the dots to the pixel grid, resulting in dots which were either misaligned to the grid, or the wrong size. MSAA fixed this issue, but I didn't want the mod working correctly to rely on a very expensive graphics setting.

The intended dot sizes are unchanged from the original release, but for reference the maths works out as such for common resolutions:

• 1080: 1x1 pixel dot
• 1200: 1x1 pixel dot
• 1440: 2x2 pixel dot
• 1600: 2x2 pixel dot
• 2160: 3x3 pixel dot

Adjusted ranges

Based on feedback from people in the thread, and my own experience testing the mod in various PVE and PVP servers, I made a few adjustments to the ranges. The near range has been pulled slightly in, as I felt like the fully opaque black dots were a little too easy to see, a little too far away. Meanwhile, the far distance was pushed out slightly. This is a compromise based on discussion that under certain circumstances aircraft should be visible from a further away. I still think a better solution would be some kind of glinting for truly distant spotting, but as I said before that's complex enough that I'm hesitant to put in the work for a mod that will probably be obsolete for MP purposes by next patch due to IC checks.

In practice, these adjustments make for a smoother transition between a distant dot being invisible, and a near one being completely visible. More importantly, it makes it easier to approximate distance of a contact, since the curve is more gradual. When WVR (<5 nautical miles) the targets are still clearly visible, which is the area I'm most concerned with. Targets are also visible for slightly longer past the 10 nautical mile mark before they totally fade out with new, more gradual curve.

To put numbers to this:

• Near range: 12km (6.48nm) -> 8km (4.32nm)
• 50% visibility range: 18000 (9.72nm) -> 18200 (9.83nm)
• Far range 32km: (17.2nm) -> 42km (22.6nm)

Edited April 21, 2023 by Why485

[Padinn]

For me at 4k on a 42 inch TV this is a massive improvement in WVR. I think it would still need some tweaking to balance it out/make it a smooth transition, I noticed that when I zoomed in on aircraft it was a little smaller than the dot, so I'm not sure if that is intended.

I rarely was able to spot things without a ton of assist and this made flying last night much more fun.  

 

Edit - this was on 1.0 release.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Padinn

[TonyRS]

Excuse my ignorance. But, what happens with this mod when…
1. I update DCS
2. I may need to run a ‘repair DCS’ at any time?

Edited April 20, 2023 by TonyRS
Context

[MIghtymoo]

19 minutes ago, TonyRS said:

Excuse my ignorance. But, what happens with this mod when…
1. I update DCS
2. I may need to run a ‘repair DCS’ at any time?

 

Experts can clarify, anyhow I highly recommend to use a mod manager to easily turn on/off mods. I personally use OVGME.

Edited April 20, 2023 by MIghtymoo

[CapnCoke]

12 hours ago, MrExplosion said:

Tested this yesterday on VR with my G2 headset. Imo it looks terrible - contacts render as giant bricks and will stay bricks until really close, making it impossible to ID. Also take all the skill out of spotting. Pls add this to IC asap.

Having played DCS with valve index, 1080p monitor, 1440p monitor, and 1080p res with a 1440p monitor, I see no reason to use the mod for VR as with the correct pixel density and resolution settings, you can spot as well as a 1080p user or even better. Current implementation in DCS is contacts that are farther than 3-4 miles are rendered as a pixel dot. This mod increases the pixel count for resolution over 1080p. If you look closely in your VR LCD panel, you can easily see individual pixels. This is why you're seeing "giant bricks" when using the mod as it doubles or triples the pixel based on what resolution you're using. In this case for G2 which is 2160 x 2160 at 100% resolution, it allows you to see 3x3 pixels for contacts rendered as dots. This is unnecessary because of how close the panel is to your eyes and how easily you can see pixels. In fact, using this mod can also be a disadvantage as you cannot see targets 30 miles away anymore.

This mod is usually geared towards players playing 1440p or 2160p monitor and don't want to resort lowering their resolution. It might also help some VR users using high end headsets with high pixel density or high steamvr resolution, but because of how variable their resolution is, its not an easy fix by just installing this mod. On my 27" 1440p monitor, the target that's rendered as pixel dot is smaller than the model so when he gets close, the model "pops in". With the 2x2 pixel dot when using the mod, it fits within the model at ranges where IFF is impossible but considered WVR. That's why OP selected 1080p pixel as baseline as its not too big or small.

[pastranario3]

Do you still want to see more in 2d?, photo in monitor tv 4k (no mod, no tags, vanilla) contacts at 60km, please, this already seems to be a cheat, when in vr it is only detected at 16km, and in reality approximately 18km.

 

spotting-test2.miz

Edited April 21, 2023 by pastranario3

[CapnCoke]

6 hours ago, pastranario3 said:

Do you still want to see more in 2d?, photo in monitor tv 4k (no mod, no tags, vanilla) contacts at 60km, please, this already seems to be a cheat, when in vr it is only detected at 16km, and in reality approximately 18km.

 

spotting-test2.miz 20.73 kB · 2 downloads

 

I want to make a point regarding that screenshot (could you provide your monitor size just to make sure?) but there are also things I want to make clear. Regarding about seeing contacts at 60 km (32 nm), the mod actually prevents seeing contacts more than 15 miles, and they start transparent and gradually gets darker the closer they are so technically it should be a positive thing for your case. Regarding for VR, see my last post but yes, there is limit depending on your vr hardware. For VR users, I recommend not using supersampling or any techniques that blends pixels like AA. Hardware wise, there will be a limit where pixels is not clear enough for distance far away. I set my valve index to use 100% steamvr resolution, no AA, and a pixel density of 1. If I want further advantage, I'll drop resolution to 85%. This advantage is one of the problem we're facing in this sim because we're trying to use hardware and settings to gain an advantage in a study sim. We're currently in a situation where we pit a mig21 vs an f5e in a dogfight and both pilots are in WVR but in reality one of them is blind because he's using a 27 inch 2k monitor. Regarding your screenshot, I'm assuming its a big monitor since you mentioned TV but I could be wrong. I'll explain that part at the end because there are some things I want to address what I feel the mod is really trying to push.

• First, it tries to create a level playing field for players who really need it because of hardware limitation. Note that I don't really like using spotting missions because being placed in a mission where you know where the aircraft is against a totally blue background is different than being vectored to a target 25 miles away, using radar to find them, then visually trying to acquire them.
• Second, it tries to keep the engagement as realistic as possible. You should use your radar in BVR and your MK1 eyeballs when it gets close. So the mod makes targets 14nm away (25km) fully transparent. Can be a disadvantage for some players, but on the other hand provides a realistic advantage knowing that the dots you see are contacts that are <14 miles away from you enhancing your SA.
• Third, targets in visual range where an actual fighter pilot can see irl shouldn't be pitch black unless there's a sunset behind it (I guess?). That's why fading is introduced in this mod. Scaling and spotting conditions (weather, lighting) is the correct way to fix it.
• Once you merged, you shouldn't lose visual of your target unless you are looking away for extended period of time. Currently if you merge at a really high speed, you go high and get separated by 3 miles, you can lose visual of your target because it turned into a pixel against the forest background even if it has a white bare metal camo. Scaling is the correct way to fix that but currently to mitigate this issue, downres to 1080p to have a bigger pixel displayed on your screen to easily track or reacquire your target after a pass. This mod allows you to keep your resolution and have the same pixel size as 1080p.

Now there are two sims that I know which are tackling this problem differently. One of them is an f16 simulator that uses smart scaling based on research documents https://apps.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA414893. Instead of dots, aircraft model is scaled. The size of the model is determined for eg if at this range "can you tell its heading and aspect?" then the model size will be big enough to answer that but not to IFF. However, it's not perfect and it feels exaggerated imo for small monitors, and it was addressed by OP here https://why485.itch.io/smart-scaling-demonstration. The other sim is WW2 sim and aircraft visibility is determined by the weather conditions, clouds, and lighting. It's also not perfect but its a step in the right direction. I think this mod tried to also "simulate" this by fading the dots the farther it is.

 

DO I NEED THIS MOD?
IMO it depends on your hardware, settings, and your experience playing this sim. This mod fixes an issue that does not apply to everyone, and for those who don't need it is not going to miss out on anything, and won't be handicapped when fighting a player that uses it (No unfair advantage when both parties can see each other in WVR).
Yes if you cannot play missions without labels. If you acquired your target with radar using a cold war jet (HUD is basically a gunsight) and try really hard to visually acquire your target within 10 miles but still failed. Lose sight of your target frequently during a dogfight that is kept within 3-5 miles and 90% of your time is focused on him, 10% to check your six. Tons of flight hours but terrible spotting but your teammate somehow keeps spotting enemies. 

No if you're playing on 1080p. Correctly dialed up your VR settings. Playing on a large monitor and you are sitting close to it (32" 1440p is a Yes, anything larger depends on resolution and how close you sit so better to test the mod).

If you're using a 24" 1080p monitor then you're out of luck, from my experience your spotting ability will be between 27" 1440p player and 27" 1440p downrez player. The mod won't improve it and its up to ED to introduce scaling to level the field.

These are my opinion based from my experience. You should give this mod a try and run a couple of missions/multiplayer and form your own.

 

I want to expand on the hardware side regarding monitors as it might explain why people voted worse for me or no difference. I would like to point out that using the mod might seem "worse" because it fades out contacts far away rather than keeping it pitch black. Therefore if you have no issue seeing pixel dots, then using this mod might be a disadvantage for you, but it will be "closer to realism".

Below are pictures with two monitors that I have, both are Samsung Odyssey G7. One of them is 27", the other 32". Both are 1440p. They both have the same pixel counts but the bigger the monitor, the more "stretched" the pixel is to fit the whole monitor screen. This is why (in general for gaming/content consumption) if you're upgrading from 1080p 24" to 27", you should always go 1440p as 1080p looks terrible with 27". Please note that I am using reshade with curves.fx and amdfidelitycas.fx for sharper pixel (I recommend it to help with spotting) and forgot to turn it off when taking these pictures. Also, it might look different in my perspective than yours. Also the pictures are taken at the same distance, the hud looks bigger on 32" because its just a bigger monitor.

27 inch 1440p, 1440p ingame resolution, vanilla - visual on enemy 23 miles away but pixel dot is really small you have to zoom in the screenshot to see it. Anyone who plays with their monitor further away from them will technically be blind. You basically have to pixel hunt.

27 inch 1440p, 1080p ingame resolution, vanilla - visual on enemy 23 miles away. Pixel is more pronounced.

32 inch 1440p, 1440p ingame resolution, vanilla. Much better than 27" (first screenshot). This is due to the pixel being bigger than 27inch monitor.

32 inch 1440p, 1080p ingame resolution, vanilla. Not much difference from 1440p res. Might look a bit blurry than 1440p res but it's thicker so its easier to spot. In multiplayer scenario it's slightly better than 1440p resolution from my experience when scanning around (was more consistent in different environments). Anyone who used to play downscaled on 32" vanilla and moved back to 1440p res after installing the mod won't expect much (This is the case if they just loaded a quick spotting mission, my conclusion at the end will clarify what I mean). That could explain why some voted "no difference" or "worse for me" because they can't see further than 14 miles. (Next picture explains what I mean).

32inch 1440p, 1440p ingame resolution with mod - no visual on enemy 23 miles away. Mod addresses the issue of seeing targets at unrealistic range.

32inch 1440p, 1440p ingame resolution with mod - tally on enemy 14 miles. However, it's opaque. Usually you'd be in this situation if you acquired your target in radar and flying towards it, or was vectored in by GCI. You have to work hard by scanning the horizon. Also note that its much easier to see in my perspective than the picture due to loss of quality.

32 inch 1440p, 1440p ingame resolution with mod - tally on enemy 9 miles. Pixel is darker.

I didn't include screenshots of 27" 1440p with mod (me being lazy). Basically from my experience the pixel dot visibility is the same as downscaling to 1080p. Now you don't have to sacrifice your overall graphics fidelity anymore from downscaling. Only downside is you lose the advantage of seeing planes more than 14 miles away. I want to point out the dot clarity from using this mod in WVR is the most pronounced with this monitor size and resolution, and that's important because its the most common monitor size and resolution. That's why a lot of players are complaining about spotting in DCS and having to resort to downscaling.

Do I prefer using the mod?

Yes. The mod offers the greatest benefit to 27" monitor as dots is the same size as downscaling to 1080p. I currently main with 32 inch unless I sim in the other room that has my 27" monitor. Even though the screenshot shows the 32 inch 1440p vanilla looking pretty good, it's not always the case as those pictures were taken in a clear perfect environment comparing to a busy combat environment. Before the mod, I fly pvp servers with my resolution downscaled to 1080p. Downscaling to 1080p resolution also had flickering issue where dots disappear at certain fov at certain distances (I think its caused from 2x MSAA). Now with the mod I can get the benefit of 1080p spotting while running 1440p resolution, and that also fixed the flickering issue I had. Also, losing track during "on the deck" dogfight is no longer a frequent issue.

Edited April 21, 2023 by CapnCoke

[N0XID]

Hello.

Has anyone else also experienced significant performance losses in some cases with using that mod? For me definitely yes. Especially when I fly close to the ground and there is a lot of forest and meadows to see. Especially on the Cold War PvP server.

Too bad because the recognition is noticeably better for me but i cant use them. My FPS is good all the time but I get very strange stuttering.

[Vakarian]

No performance loss on my side. Testing case: MP with few players, down low on Caucasus forests in Apache. 

[DJBiscuit1818]

Wow, this mod made the game enjoyable for me again.

I play on (EDIT: 27" 1440p monitor 1-2 feet away) and really enjoy flying on ECW. That server is singlehandedly responsible for me buying 4 F-5s and the F1, but when I'm out of practice, spotting feels impossible. It takes days of consecutive flying for my eyes to get used to the tiny single-pixel dots I'm looking for (even then it's hit-or-miss), and if I don't fly for a week or so I have to start over. I hadn't flown since the MT patch dropped, and I ended up logging 6 hours today because of how much more fun it was when I could actually see (and maintain!!) contacts inside of 10nm.

There was some weirdness with the mod to be sure: I found ID'ing targets more difficult (though maybe that's because I could just see contacts from so much further?), there was some shimmer and/or flicker at certain ranges, and at one point I had an F-5 pop out of existence only a few hundred meters in front of my F1 (though that might have been desync as it popped back into existence a moment later, and at least I still got the kill ;).

Overall, I cannot stress just how much of an improvement this is. There's a little jank, but if ED actually coded this type of improvement in, instead of altering a single shader, I'm sure it could be done much better. That being said, I'd still take this change, as-is, jank and all, being hardcoded and/or default behavior in a heartbeat.

Edited April 21, 2023 by DJBiscuit1818