Why can't you flare an F14?

[9thHunt]

11 hours ago, jojyrocks said:

Finnish air force does it with their Hornets too, flare and aerobrake a bit. In DCS flight modelling on that is a bit off as it is impossible to land with aerobraking on Hornet.

Supposedly, in the Hornet you need to land with some force just to get the landing gear to engage properly.

[AKarhu]

31 minutes ago, 9thHunt said:

Supposedly, in the Hornet you need to land with some force just to get the landing gear to engage properly.

In the Hornet, the wheel axis is not fixed in orientation relative to the gear leg but pivots slightly during the retraction sequence to make everything fit into the fuselage. A mechanical linkage is supposed to 'plane' the wheel properly during landing gear extension and it is then held locked in orientation by linkage's geometry (the correct position of which is monitored by a dedicated proximity switch; indication of planing link issue was, if I recall correctly, a flashing gear indication). If you float around some without proper weight on wheels or, for worse, apply braking, the wheel is subject to various dynamic forces and moments pushing and pulling it into whatever directions. One theory is that this increases the likelihood of 'shaking open' the geometric lock of the planing link. My understanding is that the cases of planing link issues are mostly associated with combination of some looseness in the rigging of the linkages and 'floaty' landings. Note that due to Hornet's landing gear design, it is possible to float the aircraft with the wheels in contact with the ground but with very little weight on them before the gear struts 'kneel' properly.

Edited May 11, 2023 by AKarhu

[jojyrocks]

9 minutes ago, AKarhu said:

In the Hornet, the wheel axis is not fixed in orientation relative to the gear leg but pivots slightly during the retraction sequence to make everything fit into the fuselage. A mechanical linkage is supposed to 'plane' the wheel properly during landing gear extension and it is then held locked in orientation by linkage's geometry (the correct position of which is monitored by a dedicated proximity switch; indication of planing link issue was, if I recall correctly, a flashing gear indication). If you float around some without proper weight on wheels or, for worse, apply braking, the wheel is subject to various dynamic forces and moments pushing and pulling it into whatever directions. One theory is that this increases the likelihood of 'shaking open' the geometric lock of the planing link. My understanding is that the cases of planing link issues are mostly associated with combination of some looseness in the rigging of the linkages and 'floaty' landings. Note that due to Hornet's landing gear design, it is possible to float the aircraft with the wheels in contact with the ground but with very little weight on them before the gear struts 'kneel' properly.

 

 

 

I was only quoting the Hornet coz we see Finnish pilots doing it with their Hornets and even in sometimes we do see even in the Super Hornet doing aerobrake landing by USN pilots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Despite NATOPS manuals saying otherwise, some pilots do this when landing on runways.

31 minutes ago, AKarhu said:

In the Hornet, the wheel axis is not fixed in orientation relative to the gear leg but pivots slightly during the retraction sequence to make everything fit into the fuselage. A mechanical linkage is supposed to 'plane' the wheel properly during landing gear extension and it is then held locked in orientation by linkage's geometry (the correct position of which is monitored by a dedicated proximity switch; indication of planing link issue was, if I recall correctly, a flashing gear indication). If you float around some without proper weight on wheels or, for worse, apply braking, the wheel is subject to various dynamic forces and moments pushing and pulling it into whatever directions. One theory is that this increases the likelihood of 'shaking open' the geometric lock of the planing link. My understanding is that the cases of planing link issues are mostly associated with combination of some looseness in the rigging of the linkages and 'floaty' landings. Note that due to Hornet's landing gear design, it is possible to float the aircraft with the wheels in contact with the ground but with very little weight on them before the gear struts 'kneel' properly.

 

 

 

It is also SUPER hard almost impossible to do a long flare nose up with the Hornet in DCS. But with half flaps it flaring and aerobrake is easy.

[jojyrocks]

Flare nose up aerobrake touchdown in the F-14 is doable like the Iranians do on runway landing. For USN...only demo pilots seem to do it. Despite NATOPS saying not to...even USN pilots, especially demo pilots do it.

 

In DCS it is possible if you land without cutting power to full idle and just modulate the throttle and pitch after rear wheels touch.

 

 

[FR4GGL3]

@jojyrocks That first Flaring Pilot you linked seemed to do it for show. It almost looks like a Wheely and the Pilot seems to balance it. At least if you look at the horizontal Stabilizer it seems like the Pilot plays with the Stick to hold her in Balance. But I could be wrong.

[draconus]

27 minutes ago, FR4GGL3 said:

It almost looks like a Wheely and the Pilot seems to balance it. At least if you look at the horizontal Stabilizer it seems like the Pilot plays with the Stick to hold her in Balance.

That's how you do aerobraking - it doesn't hold for itself.

[FR4GGL3]

Thanks, I didn't know that.

[jojyrocks]

2 hours ago, FR4GGL3 said:

@jojyrocks That first Flaring Pilot you linked seemed to do it for show. It almost looks like a Wheely and the Pilot seems to balance it. At least if you look at the horizontal Stabilizer it seems like the Pilot plays with the Stick to hold her in Balance. But I could be wrong.

 

I am just emphasizing that it is impossible to that in DCS Hornet. You cannot keep the nose up by modulating the stick with full flaps. It is possible with half flaps. 

 

But IRL it is seen being done by these pilots, despite NATOPS SOP, pilots seems to do it, especially in airshows and non Navy users. The emphasis is on the part of "doability"/possibility and not about following NATOPS SOP to the letter when we clearly see here, pilots doing just that, not following the NATOPS to the letter, especially non navy users of these planes, Hornet and the Tomcat.

 

Anyway, its a softer smooth landing without smashing it in when you land in land bases, longer runway.

 

Aerobraking is a skill in itself, to modulate the stick for that smooth braking on ample runways. Weather conditions also matter though...

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by jojyrocks

[FR4GGL3]

Wasn't there a thing with high friction tires as otherwise the planes would slip of the carrier? Maybe this sticky tires make this impossible?

[9thHunt]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:14 AM, jojyrocks said:

 

 

I was only quoting the Hornet coz we see Finnish pilots doing it with their Hornets and even in sometimes we do see even in the Super Hornet doing aerobrake landing by USN pilots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Despite NATOPS manuals saying otherwise, some pilots do this when landing on runways.

 

 

It is also SUPER hard almost impossible to do a long flare nose up with the Hornet in DCS. But with half flaps it flaring and aerobrake is easy.

that's not really the same thing.  In the second video at least, he doesn't really flare much at all, he just is balancing the plane on the main gear after touchdown like in that Tomcat video.  Just because they have enough angle to not make a 3 point landing doesn't mean they are flaring.

[Raviar]

in this video you can see they flare with spoiler and spoeed brake open. hopefully heatblure can improve aerodynamic at some point:

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Raviar

[RustBelt]

That’s not a flare. That’s just holding on speed AoA with a proper descent rate. 
 

A flare would have had the planes nose continue to pitch up to hold off touching down while bleeding off speed. 
 

If your landings don’t look like this, your descent rate is too high when landing onshore.

As for the aero breaking post touchdown, just be glad the wheels even kind of interact correctly with the ground. The sim has to fudge Weight on Wheels due to how the system works. It’s that or you never have ground friction. Pick one. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by RustBelt

[FR4GGL3]

The behavior on Landing has changed a few Patches ago. Back in May the F-14 made a rockstable touch down, even if you have been a bit too fast. Nowadays it tends to float way more and such "wheelies" are not only possible, you will do them simply by pulling back in order to brake with the Stabilizers. It is way more floaty now as back in May. The onshore landings today need way more accurate speed and descent rate.

I guess it is improved now and is where it should have been from the beginning. But it was hard for me as it changed, because you get used to that former behaviour and you have to train the onshore landings again (at least I had to do it).

Edited December 2, 2023 by FR4GGL3

[Hiob]

19 hours ago, Raviar said:

in this video you can see they flare with spoiler and spoeed brake open. hopefully heatblure can improve aerodynamic at some point:

 

 

There‘s not much flaring going on here. They‘re holding their decent rate pretty constant till touchdown and the the latter is rather firm (as it should be for a tomcat). Watch how the nose is almost „slammed“ down initially.

Watch F-16‘s land in comparison when you wanna see proper flaring. (As they need to do it with their twiggy undercarriage)

Edit

A classic:

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Hiob

[Raviar]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:15 AM, RustBelt said:

That’s not a flare. That’s just holding on speed AoA with a proper descent rate. 
 

A flare would have had the planes nose continue to pitch up to hold off touching down while bleeding off speed. 
 

If your landings don’t look like this, your descent rate is too high when landing onshore.

As for the aero breaking post touchdown, just be glad the wheels even kind of interact correctly with the ground. The sim has to fudge Weight on Wheels due to how the system works. It’s that or you never have ground friction. Pick one. 

 

you were saying ?

[lunaticfringe]

Nothing says "see-they flare!" like a video *post touchdown*.

These are not flares.  There is no intentional increase in AoA just prior to the mains coming into contact with the tarmac. The F-14 when correctly configured for landing requires DLC enabled.  The spoilers deploy automatically on touchdown even if DLC is disengaged as a function of the Spoiler Brake setting.  And speed brake deployment when on speed is proper procedure to maintain engine spool RPM performance, as closing the brakes recovers airspeed faster than raising throttle setting. 

The Tomcat not flaring, like other Navy aircraft, is based on gear geometry.  To take a 45,000 lb aircraft slamming into the deck at 125 knots requires a much more capable suspension than land based.  The flip side of this design is that the airplane has to be firmly planted, and square, otherwise there is a chance for things to get squirrely.  The section landing is a proper three degree glideslope, all configured up properly, and both F-14s land square with good main gear compression.  We see what happens when it's not with the IRIAF touchdown; it wants to go all over the place and needs quick correction. 

Now do that on a wet strip with a quarter of an inch or more of water, and you're in real danger as the uncompressed main potentially hydroplanes while the other grabs friction from the tarmac.  

This is a flare.  The pilot intentionally increases AoA just prior to touchdown, and deployed the speedbrake.  This particular flare was egregious in height relative to speed of deployment, and almost caused a ground strike. 

Pulling back after touchdown is not a flare.  That's areobraking, as is seen from time to time on Iranian landings.  

 

[Raviar]

5 hours ago, lunaticfringe said:

Nothing says "see-they flare!" like a video *post touchdown*.

These are not flares.  There is no intentional increase in AoA just prior to the mains coming into contact with the tarmac. The F-14 when correctly configured for landing requires DLC enabled.  The spoilers deploy automatically on touchdown even if DLC is disengaged as a function of the Spoiler Brake setting.  And speed brake deployment when on speed is proper procedure to maintain engine spool RPM performance, as closing the brakes recovers airspeed faster than raising throttle setting. 

The Tomcat not flaring, like other Navy aircraft, is based on gear geometry.  To take a 45,000 lb aircraft slamming into the deck at 125 knots requires a much more capable suspension than land based.  The flip side of this design is that the airplane has to be firmly planted, and square, otherwise there is a chance for things to get squirrely.  The section landing is a proper three degree glideslope, all configured up properly, and both F-14s land square with good main gear compression.  We see what happens when it's not with the IRIAF touchdown; it wants to go all over the place and needs quick correction. 

Now do that on a wet strip with a quarter of an inch or more of water, and you're in real danger as the uncompressed main potentially hydroplanes while the other grabs friction from the tarmac.  

This is a flare.  The pilot intentionally increases AoA just prior to touchdown, and deployed the speedbrake.  This particular flare was egregious in height relative to speed of deployment, and almost caused a ground strike. 

Pulling back after touchdown is not a flare.  That's areobraking, as is seen from time to time on Iranian landings.  

 

You are all putting the very basic info here.

There r two questions:

1. Can tomcat flare in real world? 

It is not about why they dont. It is a "can" as ability question. aerodynamicly and physical ability.

2. Can pilot do aerodynamic braking IRL in tomcat ? 

Both are positive.

they do both to reduce maintenance cost, so the F-14 CAN flare. does it apply in DCS ? NO. why?
you might be able to do aerodynamic breaking in DCS with light tomcat, less than 13 units AOA approach, and be fast! but IRL they keep at 15 AOA, on speed and then can do both and its not tricky! 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Raviar

[RustBelt]

4 hours ago, Raviar said:

You are all putting the very basic info here.

There r two questions:

1. Can tomcat flare in real world? 

It is not about why they dont. It is a "can" as ability question. aerodynamicly and physical ability.

2. Can pilot do aerodynamic braking IRL in tomcat ? 

Both are positive.

they do both to reduce maintenance cost, so the F-14 CAN flare. does it apply in DCS ? NO. why?
you might be able to do aerodynamic breaking in DCS with light tomcat, less than 13 units AOA approach, and be fast! but IRL they keep at 15 AOA, on speed and then can do both and its not tricky! 

 

So three people have now told you that's not a flare, but you're just gonna dig in.

[ustio]

I just switch off DLC instead of flaring to reduce vertical speed.