Today's patch added the entire shaders folder to IC, effectively blocking every quality of life mod that accessed that folder

[NineLine]

I have reported it and requested something similar to the mod or similar to the Hornet and Viper. Also suggested it might be something to allow a server to enforce or not if they so choose. 

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, Hotdognz said:

Mods are simple to use

There’s more to using mods than simply dragging a file into a folder. 
First you’d have to find one. There’s 13,000 mods for DCS, 450 for the Hornet alone. 
Then the big reason to stay away from them is that they can be a source of instability and add another layer of effort to trouble shooting. 
They sometimes don’t stay current or have to be updated constantly. 
They might not work in multiplayer

Then like this one they might just stop working. 

So all in all this just represents hours of time spent that ends up not being worthwhile. I would rather spend my limited time for gaming actually gaming. 

[71st_AH Rob]

7 hours ago, NineLine said:

I am looking into the clear glass thing, but realistically, this shouldn't be a mod but a user option like it is on some modules. 

Thanks, that's great but could ED re-enable the shaders folder until this is on fact an option on all the modules? It could be years before I can fly the Spitfire again with the cockpit closed if we have to wait for this to be implemented.

7 hours ago, NineLine said:

I am looking into the clear glass thing, but realistically, this shouldn't be a mod but a user option like it is on some modules. 

 

7 hours ago, NineLine said:

I am looking into the clear glass thing, but realistically, this shouldn't be a mod but a user option like it is on some modules. 

blockquote widget

Edited May 22, 2023 by 71st_AH Rob

[Ironhand]

On 5/21/2023 at 9:44 AM, Blackhawk NC said:

…If you remove the dot completely, as SharpeXB  suggested, it would level the playing field, but would make the game unplayable for some and so unpleasant for many…

Well…it’s not exactly leveling the playing field, if it makes the game unplayable or unpleasant for some but not all. It’s just changing who has the advantage. Someone always has an advantage. The only question is, is the advantage unfair?

Edited May 22, 2023 by Ironhand

[key_stroked]

10 hours ago, NineLine said:

I am looking into the clear glass thing, but realistically, this shouldn't be a mod but a user option like it is on some modules. 

Yeah, it should have been a user option provided by ED. But it never was, which is why the mod was made to cover ED's shortsightedness. Just like the dots mod. Just like the data cartridge mod. Just like a dozen other QoL mods that should have been added long before now.

People are upset because there has been inaction from ED on many of these things reported and discussed YEARS ago, but it takes a hacker abusing a mod to put you guys into action?

Edited May 22, 2023 by key_stroked

[Extranajero]

4 minutes ago, key_stroked said:

People are upset because there has been inaction from ED on many of these things reported and discussed YEARS ago, but it takes a hacker abusing a mod to put you guys into action?

 

As as far as I - or anyone else knows - the mod hasn't been abused. What did happen was that a " won't somebody please think of the children " character on Reddit made his own alteration to the mod which replaced the dots with massive green triangles and then posted a screenshot of it. 

Meanwhile, the people who really are cheating - no need for any interpretations of what's a cheat and whats just quality of life with this technique - use a different method and almost no-one seems to pick up on it...fortunately they just turn up, cause havoc for ten minutes and then get bored and go back to pulling the wings off flies.

[SharpeXB]

58 minutes ago, Extranajero said:

As as far as I - or anyone else knows - the mod hasn't been abused. What did happen was that a " won't somebody please think of the children " character on Reddit made his own alteration to the mod which replaced the dots with massive green triangles and then posted a screenshot of it. 

Meanwhile, the people who really are cheating - no need for any interpretations of what's a cheat and whats just quality of life with this technique - use a different method and almost no-one seems to pick up on it...fortunately they just turn up, cause havoc for ten minutes and then get bored and go back to pulling the wings off flies.

It doesn’t take actual cheating, just the perception that it occurs or that not enough is done prevent it, to give a game a bad reputation. If you wonder why so few people play DCS online this might be a reason. 
I don’t imagine a Reddit user was the sole reason for the ban. You can see BN raised this issue the day after the mod was posted. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Extranajero]

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If you wonder why so few people play DCS online this might be a reason. 
 

 

I don't wonder why.

But if I did then I'd say that a major reason is because a new user often flies around without seeing anything for 40 minutes and then some smartarse like me sneaks up on him, shoots him in the back and runs away. He's not even sure what happened most of the time. Not everyone is willing to put up with several weeks of that happening before they begin to get things figured out, and therefore participation becomes self limiting. It's a very steep learning curve.

Of course one other reason people don't do multiplayer is BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SPOT OTHER AIRCRAFT EXCEPT BY USING MINECRAFT RESOLUTION and the server admins won't turn labels on because of the 1080p mafia wailing about realism.

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Extranajero said:

I don't wonder why.

But if I did then I'd say that a major reason is because a new user often flies around without seeing anything for 40 minutes and then some smartarse like me sneaks up on him, shoots him in the back and runs away. He's not even sure what happened most of the time. Not everyone is willing to put up with several weeks of that happening before they begin to get things figured out, and therefore participation becomes self limiting. It's a very steep learning curve.

Of course one other reason people don't do multiplayer is BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SPOT OTHER AIRCRAFT EXCEPT BY USING MINECRAFT RESOLUTION and the server admins won't turn labels on because of the 1080p mafia wailing about realism.

DCS is an easy game to imagine being cheated on, especially BVR. So let’s not fuel the suspicion. 
The trouble with labels is they simply wreck the air combat by removing any element of surprise. And I’m sure there’s not enough agreement on what style to use either so “off” is something everyone can agree on. I think that’s why “full real” without aids is so popular. It’s not for realism necessarily it’s just easier for everyone to agree on. 
Honestly I think spotting in DCS is just fine, I’m never sure what all the fuss is about. Removing the 1080 exploit is easy, just take away the dots like the game was pre 2016

Edited May 22, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Extranajero]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

DCS is an easy game to imagine being cheated on, especially BVR. So let’s not fuel the suspicion. 
The trouble with labels is they simply wreck the air combat by removing any element of surprise. And I’m sure there’s not enough agreement on what style to use either so “off” is something everyone can agree on. I think that’s why “full real” without aids is so popular. It’s not for realism necessarily it’s just easier for everyone to agree on. 
Honestly I think spotting in DCS is just fine, I’m never sure what all the fuss is about. Removing the 1080 exploit is easy, just take away the dots like the game was pre 2016

 

I don't do BVR, to me it seems a bit less interesting than watching paint dry, but if you like staring at MFD's and pushing buttons then who am I to tell you that you are wrong ?
I'm not imagining the cheating, I saw it many times in another flight sim. I can't spell out what's going on without giving away how it's done. You wouldn't want me to do that, with you being so concerned about cheats would you ?

" Full real " isn't popular with me - I find it a complete pain in the arse and I think it's another major reason why there aren't more people getting into MP. I don't enjoy trying to find my way around an unfamiliar airbase without an external view and all the other " hey everybody, please look at me, I'm a real fighter pilot " nonsense they inflict on you.

Labels don't remove the element of surprise, at least dot neutral ones don't. They aren't a perfect solution, probably not even a very good one, but they are still better than being blind.

You think spotting is fine, but I think recent events have shown that makes you part of a tiny minority. Every other combat flight sim uses a variation of scaling, I have to ask myself why DCS doesn't.

[Dangerzone]

7 hours ago, key_stroked said:

Yeah, it should have been a user option provided by ED. But it never was, which is why the mod was made to cover ED's shortsightedness. Just like the dots mod. Just like the data cartridge mod. Just like a dozen other QoL mods that should have been added long before now.

People are upset because there has been inaction from ED on many of these things reported and discussed YEARS ago, but it takes a hacker abusing a mod to put you guys into action?

 

To be fair - trying to see 2 sides here... the change that has been made has only been made so far on the BETA version of DCS... so there is still time for ED to consider community feedback on this issue (which is what OB are normally about) - and apply the best option for the stable release to come. However I agree that it's concerning that the response so far seem to be focused on a single issue (ie, the dots) and not the greater problem.

ED has made a fantastic product, and I appreciate it's existence. For me - it's the only reason I have a 'gaming machine'.  Passionate community members have added to this product to make it even better still. However in saying that - the above quote is IMO an underrated comment - and I think is deserving of a bit more attention.

I would really like to encourage ED to have a slight change in mindset to consider with more weight what contributing community members are doing and how the changes ED does affects them - because for people to take so much time and effort into creating these and distributing them means that these are no small details that should easily be overlooked. 

There will always be the entitled, where what ED does is never enough - and will always find something to whine about. I'm sympathetic to NL and BN who really wear the brunt of this. But I'm talking about ignoring the noisiest to consider the bigger issue here & those who have put serious time and consideration into finding solutions that improve DCS for so many others - which the above poster has touched on and I'd like to elaborate further.

Things such as optimized textures (Taz) that as literally saved numerous VR users from abandoning DCS, the new upcoming Mission Editor with some basic features people have requested for years, the Data Catridge Mod, Dots, as well as things such as Simple Slot Blocker, DMSC/Simple Save Groups, etc that make possible the severs we enjoy today. People have been waiting on these features, optimizations or improvements for a time significant enough that mods have been developed by users to fill these holes because there's no small need for them and there was no sign of these being looked at on the horizon, and it really hurts when ED undervalue the contributions made. 

Are we asking too much too soon of ED? I don't know. I'm sure ED dev's aren't sitting there twiddling their thumbs doing little... and that's where these community mod's really help everyone. It helps to give ED some breathing space in some areas, and give the community some solutions. 

But being involved with server management, mission designing, script designing, etc and working with others in this I can honestly say that there is a real feeling of frustration and even despair by a number in the community as to whether ED even appreciates the contributions made or would prefer if we gave up and just let DCS be what it is on it's own. The situation leading up to RuroniJones's all but abandoning Overlordbot has raised to the surface what a number have been feeling behind the scenes and we now are at a point where an incredible feature for MP servers is now being abandoned due to the lack of appreciation and support from ED, and I know he is not alone.

I don't make this post to bash ED or to find fault. Rather I am sympathetic to problems I can only imagine that ED are facing and my desire is for the community to worth with them instead of finding blame. Going through COVID and now the current global situation - it's not great at all - and ED are still putting out great modules with more on the way, the final implementation of multi-threading is here, Vulcan being developed on, etc. I am very appreciative of the work that ED is doing. I acknowledge that it's very much likely that in a similar way that the community feels underappreciated by ED that some in ED may feel just as underappreciated by the community, which brings me to my main point:

I just can't help but feel that DCS is being held back by a certain level of separation of understanding between them and the community that supports them as to what really matters to a lot of their customer base, and is underestimating the benefit of supporting those that support ED during these times or how the changes ED makes impacts them. My plea would be for ED to reconsider with more weight the needs of the content creators that support them. (And I don't mean youtube 'content creators'- I mean real content - those actually contributing to the development of DCS freely with their own time and what holes are currently being filled by community).

I'm not sure what more we can do our end but plea. RJ approached ED, and then as requested - took the time to consult many of the leading dev community as to what is important and provide information directly back to the top (to Kate) and then waited patiently... for 2 years.... for nothing.  I'm not sure where to go to from here? It would be very timely for ED to show a greater level of support at the moment for the community dev's to ease some concern and bring some focus to these matters.

I would suggest how this particular issue of IC is addressed is going speak a lot louder than many probably realise in the community as to ED's broader attitude towards the community - whether things are changing, or whether they remain the same. 

I would really like to encourage ED reach out to RJ to see if some of this damage can be undone and see if the relationship between the dev community and ED can be improved. This would be no small gesture. 

Likewise my encouragement for the issue here (which is not just about dots but is about more community contributors having their work 'shut out' and underappreciated by ED) would be considered in it's entirety. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Dangerzone

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Extranajero said:

" Full real " isn't popular with me - I find it a complete pain in the arse and I think it's another major reason why there aren't more people getting into MP. I don't enjoy trying to find my way around an unfamiliar airbase without an external view and all the other " hey everybody, please look at me, I'm a real fighter pilot " nonsense they inflict on you.

Again I think it’s because first these games tend to appeal to players interested in realism but secondly because it’s the easiest common denominator of settings everyone can agree on. It’s certainly possible in DCS to do something different but it doesn’t seem enough players are interested in that. 

3 hours ago, Extranajero said:

Labels don't remove the element of surprise, at least dot neutral ones don't. They aren't a perfect solution, probably not even a very good one, but they are still better than being blind.

Look at the effect labels, in any form, affect this mantra; “lose sight lose the fight”. Well what if you can’t lose sight? Who wins then? Sometimes this might be your only advantage, If you’re flying a plane that’s inferior in certain situations. Let’s say you end up defensive against a 109K in the P-47D. Your only chance is that the 109 loses sight of you, it’s got you outclassed otherwise. Realistic (lesser) visibility isn’t a gameplay detriment, It’s just a matter of changing your toolkit from “game” to “simulator”. 

[Hotdognz]

Thanks for writing that all out @Dangerzone, its exactly how most of my group I fly with feels about DCS at the moment.

[Temetre]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb SharpeXB:

Realistic (lesser) visibility isn’t a gameplay detriment, It’s just a matter of changing your toolkit from “game” to “simulator”. 

Visibility in reality is way better than in DCS without dots. Even VR is easier, despite the low resolution.

[cfrag]

On 5/19/2023 at 8:35 PM, NineLine said:

The same goes with the reflections, while I understand some liked to remove them completely, we need a better solution and I will be submitting that to the team as well. 

Thank you, @NineLine, that would help a lot! The reflection issue to me kills the usability of at least the Hip, Huey and Tiger (some, more but those are my current favorite airframes where I noticed that they have become unusuable) because depending on how the sun hits the glass, it becomes opaque:

There's no way I can land the Hip with that, nor fly it reliably. Same for Huey and Tiger. The bug is well known and documented for some years now, and it is shared with other modules. We know where it originates and where it can be fixed: in the glass shader (heck I even wrote a small hlsl patch myself, it's not that difficult). 

So if I may offer a suggestion: Put a "reflection strength" slider from 0.0 to 1.0 into the general (global) options screen. Have the glass shader read that setting and apply it to the reflection (a simple multiplication) for all glass, and this issue goes away - for all modules. Of course, if ED gets around to fixing the individual modules, that would be even more appreciated.

So thanks again @NineLine for taking this up!

-ch

[draconus]

13 hours ago, Extranajero said:

Every other combat flight sim uses a variation of scaling, I have to ask myself why DCS doesn't.

Because it's wrong and unrealistic. That you can't easily see or know where the enemy is is realistic and it's part of the simulation.

It's not WoW but you can still use labels or even mods on servers that allow it so what's the bashing about?

[Extranajero]

9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Again I think it’s because first these games tend to appeal to players interested in realism but secondly because it’s the easiest common denominator of settings everyone can agree on. It’s certainly possible in DCS to do something different but it doesn’t seem enough players are interested in that. 

Look at the effect labels, in any form, affect this mantra; “lose sight lose the fight”. Well what if you can’t lose sight? Who wins then? Sometimes this might be your only advantage, If you’re flying a plane that’s inferior in certain situations. Let’s say you end up defensive against a 109K in the P-47D. Your only chance is that the 109 loses sight of you, it’s got you outclassed otherwise. Realistic (lesser) visibility isn’t a gameplay detriment, It’s just a matter of changing your toolkit from “game” to “simulator”. 

These restrictions have got little to do with realism, that's one of my main problems with them. In DCS we don't have any way for a WW2 aircraft to taxi safely unless there is access to the F2 or F4 views. In reality you'd have ground crew watching out for you and often a guy actually lying on your wing giving you directions. Open canopies and weaving help a bit, but they aren't the whole solution. I got t-boned while taxi-ing by a Spitfire a few days ago, and there was no way I could blame him, because he couldn't see over or around the nose.
We don't have ATC either - or at least we don't have ATC that does anything useful, so the use of F2 helps prevent runway confliction accidents. And not least of all it helps you find your way around the field. 
What if I'm coming home with a shot up aircraft and get a red light when I try to lower my gear ? is it down or isn't it ? in the real world you'd do a tower flyby and they'd tell you. In DCS that's what F2 is for. If I know my gear is unsafe I'm going to try to land on the grass so that I don't close the runway for the people on my side with a flaming wreck.
The restrictions just make your life and everyone elses harder without adding a scrap of realism. The rationale behind them is warped.

The dot neutral labels aren't what you think they are. Once you are in cold war or WW2 gun ranges the dot is very rarely visible because it's a fraction of the size of your opponents plane. It will rarely help you once you are in a fight. The dot is visible through your aircrafts structure but trying to track a few moving dark grey pixels against the background of a cockpit that's mostly black is counter productive, even if you can see it at all. You have to concentrate so hard that you'll be a sitting target for the other guys wingman or a random opposition aircraft. If there's one in front of you, there's ALWAYS one behind you, or there will be soon. Yet again it's got nothing to do with game VS simulator.

And if you are flying a P-47 and get in a fight with a 109 there are more options available to you than hoping to hide and run. You are probably in a lot of trouble, but you aren't neccessarily toast.

[Extranajero]

1 minute ago, draconus said:

Because it's wrong and unrealistic. That you can't easily see or know where the enemy is is realistic and it's part of the simulation.

It's not WoW but you can still use labels or even mods on servers that allow it so what's the bashing about?

It's an order of magnitude more diifficult to pick up an aircraft on a flat screen when you haven't got the real life cues available to you - like binocular vison, reflections from the sun and countless other little things that human vision evolved to track prey back when we were hunter gatherers. That's why scaling, or some other aid becomes important.

And yes, I used to fly in real life, and still do now and again. I know how hard or otherwise it is to see another aircraft. What I don't appreciate is being lectured on realism by people who have only ever looked out of an airliners window. I'm not saying that's you, but it's true for a lot of these characters.

I don't know what WoW is, but please don't bother explaining.
 

[draconus]

17 minutes ago, Extranajero said:

It's an order of magnitude more diifficult to pick up an aircraft on a flat screen when you haven't got the real life cues available to you - like binocular vison, reflections from the sun and countless other little things that human vision evolved to track prey back when we were hunter gatherers.

Most monitor users fly with high fov thus inflicting visibility problems on themselves, so it can't be even close to comparable to RL. Yes, we lack additional effects like sun glints, but let's add these to objects, not awful and incorrect scale changes.

Edited May 23, 2023 by draconus

[Extranajero]

7 minutes ago, draconus said:

Most monitor users fly with high fov thus inflicting visibility problems on themselves, so it can't be even close to comparable to RL. Yes, we lack additional effects like sun glints, but let's add these to objects, not awful and incorrect scale changes.

 

How do you know what FOV settings they use ? are you looking over their shoulders ? that's a bit creepy, I just checked behind me for a guy with a mustache and a pilots cap

Getting the view zoomed all the way out is the only way to pick up other aircraft at "long" range due to the way the DCS visual system works on flat screens. It actually works exactly the opposite to how you claim it does. Reduce the FOV and they will disappear.
The effect of zoom\FOV in DCS is another can of worms, for example there's a sweet spot where you can see contrails and either side of that they just vanish. Objects appear and disappear according to where your zoom is at.

It sounds like you use VR. You can't really compare the VR experience to the flat screen one. I have never used VR because I don't want to wear a bucket of sweat on my head and halve my frame rates, but my VR using friends report that they can see aircraft at distances I could only dream about. However, once in gun range they can't tell the difference between a Mustang and a Mig-29, so then I become their eyes, just like they were mine at long range.
 

[draconus]

12 minutes ago, Extranajero said:

It sounds like you use VR. You can't really compare the VR experience to the flat screen one.

Yes, but I used monitor before without problems on low fov calculated as "real", and also normal (high) fov even before then. So I do have a comparison.

If there are problems with visibility vs fov and contrails just report them and move on.

[Extranajero]

10 minutes ago, draconus said:

Yes, but I used monitor before without problems on low fov calculated as "real", and also normal (high) fov even before then. So I do have a comparison.

If there are problems with visibility vs fov and contrails just report them and move on.

You obviously never did any in depth testing of how the visuals in DCS work, if you think that it's more difficult to spot with your view zoomed out. It's a demonstrable fact that being completely zoomed out increases your visibility range versus an air target. Try it on a monitor.
I don't know why it's that way, but it is.

The issues with objects appearing and disappearing dependant on zoom has been reported forever and nothing has been done. Why would I bother adding to the reports ?

You obviously take the opinion that if everything is right for you, then it's automatically right for everyone else.

[fragal]

Sad about this, the dots fixed the one major issue i've had with DCS since i started playing it back in 200x in lomac days the literal ability to see other planes up close. So sadly despite my hatred of this i'm just going to run in 1080 from now on, now if i bump up all my settings it doesn't look to terrible on a 32" just everythings really blown up but at least i can see everything.

[draconus]

18 minutes ago, Extranajero said:

Why would I bother adding to the reports ?

Seems more productive than this thread.

[Extranajero]

1 minute ago, draconus said:

Seems more productive than this thread.

Well you dragged me back into it by quoting me and now I've patiently explained to you that I think you are mistaken, - and provided a little evidence - you decide that the whole discussion is pointless. OK, fair enough