draconus Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 17 hours ago, Q3ark said: Having to do the master test stuff on a simulated jet that will never have a failure just seems like a complete waste of time. You're free to omit it, just like all the other boring stuff like cold start, taxi, take off, climb out, looong way to the target area, rtb... You also have the option of time acceleration. The simulation starts and ends whenever you want. 4 Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX4070S Quest 3 T16000M VPC CDT-VMAX TFRP FC3 F-14A/B F-15E CA SC NTTR PG Syria
RustBelt Posted November 17, 2023 Posted November 17, 2023 On 11/8/2023 at 3:39 AM, draconus said: Of course the flight and combat are the first and foremost things that have to be done and working flawlessly but the full procedure of cold start/shutdown including all the tests by the book is a thing each owner would like to go through... at least once and it's important to make the module fully complete. That's one of the reasons we have full fidelity systems. I don't agree that systems failures aren't modeled - they are to a degree now (as an option) and there are plans to make them even more detailed with coming F-4E - and these implementations are planned to be shared within all HB modules). Thanks, @RustBelt for the great idea with fan vs canopy DO IT!
MAXsenna Posted November 17, 2023 Posted November 17, 2023 I don’t get why you folks want this. It’s boring, tedious admin stuff. There nothing fun about this in real life, and the plane in DCs (if I’m not mistaken) can’t even fail. you’re not flying a real plane, you’re playing a game. Have some fun and lighten up. PS you should be grateful. You’ve payed something like 50 euros for a great PC game with one of the most realistic and fun modelling of a plane ever. Enjoy it. There’s 10.000 things they should do before fixing stubs. (And only some of those are working on the Turkey. In my view they should prioritise 100 good office parties with plenty of drinks over this)Oh, it's great fun when you talk to Jester with VAICOM/(VoiceAttack). Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
Eagle7907 Posted November 30, 2023 Author Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) On 11/10/2023 at 5:08 AM, Naquaii said: Afaik the status is that it's still on the todo list. It has always been the intention that in the finished product you'd be able to run the tests that are part of the checklist for startup. Thank you for the response. That sounds great and I would like to see them implemented. Sure some here are debating the needed/not needed aspect of it all, but I think since it leaves the tests (yes that's all they are) as an open option for the player(s), why not? The more implemented, the more I think shows how deeply committed the developer is to creating such a fantastic product. In other words, it allows HB to flex their muscles and outshine the group of others (even more). I would also like to see fire extinguishing be tied somehow to damage. I'm surprised this hasn't really been a thing yet. You eat a missile, shouldn't you hear at least some kind of warning of an engine fire, or extinguisher failure? Something? Not really aimed at HB, but in general. I don't think there is an aural warning, but I've flown this module a lot now and never seen the FIRE lights come on. Edited November 30, 2023 by Eagle7907 2 Win 10, AMD FX9590/water cooled, 32GB RAM, 250GB SSD system, 1TB SSD (DCS installed), 2TB HD, Warthog HOTAS, MFG rudders, Track IR 5, LG Ultrawide, Logitech Speakers w/sub, Fans, Case, cell phone, wallet, keys.....printer
Dragon1-1 Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 Fire stuff is not implemented in the F-14. You can certainly get an engine fire, and put it out, in the A-10C, so DCS supports this. You can lose an engine in the F-14, and it'll catch fire and keep burning, but it won't affect anything other than, well, not having an engine anymore. 3
Naquaii Posted November 30, 2023 Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, Eagle7907 said: Thank you for the response. That sounds great and I would like to see them implemented. Sure some here are debating the needed/not needed aspect of it all, but I think since it leaves the tests (yes that's all they are) as an open option for the player(s), why not? The more implemented, the more I think shows how deeply committed the developer is to creating such a fantastic product. In other words, it allows HB to flex their muscles and outshine the group of others (even more). I would also like to see fire extinguishing be tied somehow to damage. I'm surprised this hasn't really been a thing yet. You eat a missile, shouldn't you hear at least some kind of warning of an engine fire, or extinguisher failure? Something? Not really aimed at HB, but in general. I don't think there is an aural warning, but I've flown this module a lot now and never seen the FIRE lights come on. I'm not sure about if there are stuff about the fire system that's missing, we'd have to ask the coders who did that to be sure. That said the system also seems to be a bit misunderstood in general, the fire detection and supression system is for the engine compartments not the engines themselves. The danger isn't as much the fire in the engine itself but of it spreading from the engine. So you could very well have a damaged engine with fire coming out of it still with the system discharged as the fire supressant isn't injected in the engine itself. As for the BIT tests I'm not saying they won't ever be done but they're also on a much deeper level than what's really useful in a sim. It just makes much more sense to focus on the stuff actually part of the OBC first. Edited November 30, 2023 by Naquaii 3
randomTOTEN Posted December 1, 2023 Posted December 1, 2023 The pilot's cold start isn't useful in a sim. The trigger which the RIO is waiting for before turning on numerous systems in the back seat, for fear of damaging them.. isn't really useful in a sim.
Eagle7907 Posted December 1, 2023 Author Posted December 1, 2023 (edited) On 11/30/2023 at 12:21 PM, Naquaii said: I'm not sure about if there are stuff about the fire system that's missing, we'd have to ask the coders who did that to be sure. That said the system also seems to be a bit misunderstood in general, the fire detection and supression system is for the engine compartments not the engines themselves. The danger isn't as much the fire in the engine itself but of it spreading from the engine. So you could very well have a damaged engine with fire coming out of it still with the system discharged as the fire supressant isn't injected in the engine itself. As for the BIT tests I'm not saying they won't ever be done but they're also on a much deeper level than what's really useful in a sim. It just makes much more sense to focus on the stuff actually part of the OBC first. Again, thank you for the response. You guys are really moving mountains here and shows. I look forward to the next improvements for this beautiful piece of art. A true masterpiece. Late edit: In your example, it can technically go the another way as well. You could get an engine fire and it could still be producing thrust. Anyways, I'm very curious about this and being able to utilize this part of the simulation more in situations where we get battle damage, abusing engines, etc., but still able to return back home. I guess that also depends on ED getting the barricades working as well and somehow implementing that. Edited December 5, 2023 by Eagle7907 1 Win 10, AMD FX9590/water cooled, 32GB RAM, 250GB SSD system, 1TB SSD (DCS installed), 2TB HD, Warthog HOTAS, MFG rudders, Track IR 5, LG Ultrawide, Logitech Speakers w/sub, Fans, Case, cell phone, wallet, keys.....printer
PAIDtriot Posted December 11, 2023 Posted December 11, 2023 On 11/10/2023 at 2:19 AM, draconus said: Please, stop whining and do a proper bug report if you care. Did you forget the Early Access info when clicking Buy? https://forum.dcs.world/topic/190288-what-is-dcs-world-early-access-amp-open-beta/#comment-190334 [Early Access is an option for you to play this module in an early state, but it will be incomplete with bugs.] They can: by combat damage, mechanical damage, crew misoperation, ME triggered failures and probability driven failures. And yes, managing systems, clicking around every bit of cockpit is fun for many. We're nerds, remember? If I wanted only pew pew fun, I would definitely choose another product, probably cheaper at that. Of course it's a game, but of a study level flight simulator genre. Hope it answers it for you. "Early Access" is a cop out. The module was released over FOUR years ago. I know there have been some unanticipated challenges between them and now, including war and a pandemic, but how long is early access supposed to take? 5 years? 6 years? ... 10 years? 1
ED Team NineLine Posted December 11, 2023 ED Team Posted December 11, 2023 On 11/7/2023 at 9:04 PM, RustBelt said: The first thing you're supposed to do is go fly the thing. Worrying about go through the motions diagnostics for systems that aren't actually modeled to fail is like 1,000th in line well behind Fly a carrier pattern well, win dogfights, and closely behind install a DCSbios driven fan for wind the 20 seconds the canopy is open when loading in and out. Guess what, the fire loop tests in a PMDG 737 aren't real either. You're complaining the clickey knob on your little tykes Cozy Coupe dash doesn't connect to anything. You were doing a great job sharing your opinion until the last line, please be kind to each other. 2 hours ago, PAIDtriot said: "Early Access" is a cop out. The module was released over FOUR years ago. I know there have been some unanticipated challenges between them and now, including war and a pandemic, but how long is early access supposed to take? 5 years? 6 years? ... 10 years? Ealy Access takes as long as it needs to. These are complex modules and in many cases with DCS it's a moving target—certainly not a cop-out. 3 Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**
RustBelt Posted December 12, 2023 Posted December 12, 2023 I didn’t think it was mean. I mean these are really kind of a digital grownup version of a Busy Dashboard. I loved those things as a kid. Had one strapped to the back of my dad’s drivers seat so I could drive too! AND I had a wycked Nightrider one with lights and sounds and everything! It’s what we’re all making when we make game cockpits when you get down to it. Embrace play, don’t take it as an insult.
speed-of-heat Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 On 11/10/2023 at 11:08 AM, Naquaii said: Afaik the status is that it's still on the todo list. It has always been the intention that in the finished product you'd be able to run the tests that are part of the checklist for startup. can we at least then/supress the ones that aren't there from the training missions (or flagging them as inop) ... I spent some time trying to figure out what i did wrong , when i was following the training mission because the tests were not working as the Instructions were telling me they should... nor are they listed as inop in the manual ... i get they aren't there yet, i get it's early access... and i get its a study level sim... I don't get why the training missions say you will now see something, when everyone "knows" we won't ... SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
Naquaii Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 18 minutes ago, speed-of-heat said: can we at least then/supress the ones that aren't there from the training missions (or flagging them as inop) ... I spent some time trying to figure out what i did wrong , when i was following the training mission because the tests were not working as the Instructions were telling me they should... nor are they listed as inop in the manual ... i get they aren't there yet, i get it's early access... and i get its a study level sim... I don't get why the training missions say you will now see something, when everyone "knows" we won't ... As far as I remember that was the intention but things might've have changed or gotten over-looked. If you wish you could do a bug report for it so it gets added to the list to be looked at. 1
speed-of-heat Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, Naquaii said: As far as I remember that was the intention but things might've have changed or gotten over-looked. If you wish you could do a bug report for it so it gets added to the list to be looked at. Thanks, will do! SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
Voyager Posted December 15, 2023 Posted December 15, 2023 I think we also have to recognize that the P3D PMDG 737 and DCS HB F-14 fill fundamentally different roles. The PMDG 737 is about training pilot procedures and normal operating flight. It would, for example, never include the departure of an engine in flight; simulating and managing that scope of catastrophic failure has never been in its scope, and the core framework simply does not support it. An over-hard landing or tail-strike is cued as black screen/plane dead. By contrast, DCS is a simulation that does encompass large explosive objects attempting to interact with your air frame on a routine basis, is extremely perverse aerodynamic conditions, as well as the dealing with the aftermath of when your air frame interacts with things it ought not too. So even in a study level sim, there are trades of what is and is not simulated. I suspect an aircraft with both the full P3D and DCS level of modeling would push the $150USD mark. Afterall, the PMDG 737 is $99 and does not include any of the structural modeling we see here. I'd have to check, but I'd doubt it even bothers to simulate spins. Why would they when I'd expect the plane would exceed it's g-limit and shed a wing or tail on the first or second turn? Meanwhile, the HB/IFT F-14 for MSFS is apparently one of the most realistically handling fast jets in the sim, and at the level of systems modeling quite comparable to what we've got in DCS, it's only a $35 dollar aircraft. (And given DC Designs F-4 was a $38 plane, I do think HB/IFT are probably under charging somewhat, but not that far.) So while the BIT tests are part of the F-14's operation, they are also a relatively minor part compared to the aircraft's central missions of carrier operations, fleet defence interceptor, air superiority fighter, strike aircraft, forward air control platform and others. That's why things have to be prioritized according to the aims of the sim it is part of.
speed-of-heat Posted December 15, 2023 Posted December 15, 2023 3 hours ago, Voyager said: So while the BIT tests are part of the F-14's operation, they are also a relatively minor part compared to the aircraft's central missions of carrier operations, fleet defence interceptor, air superiority fighter, strike aircraft, forward air control platform and others. That's why things have to be prioritized according to the aims of the sim it is part of. Agree. But then they shouldn't be in the training missions... SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
randomTOTEN Posted December 15, 2023 Posted December 15, 2023 (edited) Or the manual. Or the checklist. Edited December 15, 2023 by randomTOTEN 1
speed-of-heat Posted December 15, 2023 Posted December 15, 2023 i dont mind them being in the checklist or the manual, providing they note them as inoperative ... i dont mind them being in the training if they are similarly noted ... 1 SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
Voyager Posted December 15, 2023 Posted December 15, 2023 9 hours ago, randomTOTEN said: Or the manual. Or the checklist. Meh. Jane's F/A-18E Super Hornet didn't model the Spin Recovery switch, and just glossed over it in the manual with a "not used in practice" despite the switch being quite live (if safety wired off) and able to do... things... when flipped in the real plane.
randomTOTEN Posted December 15, 2023 Posted December 15, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Voyager said: Meh. Jane's F/A-18E Super Hornet didn't model the Spin Recovery switch, and just glossed over it in the manual with a "not used in practice" despite the switch being quite live (if safety wired off) and able to do... things... when flipped in the real plane. And when you ran a scenario in Jane's F/A-18E Super Hornet, did it instruct you to lift the guard of this switch, turn it on, and view the spin recovery symbology on the DDI's, before resetting the switch and continuing the scenario? And that it was important to accomplish this step because it was a cue for the ground crew to pull the chocks? Edited December 15, 2023 by randomTOTEN 1
Voyager Posted December 15, 2023 Posted December 15, 2023 1 hour ago, randomTOTEN said: And when you ran a scenario in Jane's F/A-18E Super Hornet, did it instruct you to lift the guard of this switch, turn it on, and view the spin recovery symbology on the DDI's, before resetting the switch and continuing the scenario? And that it was important to accomplish this step because it was a cue for the ground crew to pull the chocks? Then they should probably fix the bug where if you start chocked, you need to tell the ground crew to place the chick before they can robe the chocks, otherwise you've got invisible chocks gluing you to the ground before they worry about the generator test switch then. That was a really short mission, and a long investigation before I figured that one out...
randomTOTEN Posted December 15, 2023 Posted December 15, 2023 (edited) So while removing wheel chocks are part of the F-14's operation, they are also a relatively minor part compared to the aircraft's central missions of carrier operations, fleet defence interceptor, air superiority fighter, strike aircraft, forward air control platform and others. That's why things have to be prioritized according to the aims of the sim it is part of. Edited December 15, 2023 by randomTOTEN
speed-of-heat Posted December 15, 2023 Posted December 15, 2023 2 hours ago, Voyager said: Then they should probably fix the bug where if you start chocked, you need to tell the ground crew to place the chick before they can robe the chocks, otherwise you've got invisible chocks gluing you to the ground before they worry about the generator test switch then. That was a really short mission, and a long investigation before I figured that one out... Stop trolling 1 SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
Voyager Posted December 16, 2023 Posted December 16, 2023 4 hours ago, randomTOTEN said: So while removing wheel chocks are part of the F-14's operation, they are also a relatively minor part compared to the aircraft's central missions of carrier operations, fleet defence interceptor, air superiority fighter, strike aircraft, forward air control platform and others. That's why things have to be prioritized according to the aims of the sim it is part of. Um, not sliding off the deck is quite central to carrier operations. Not sure sure what you are on about. 2 hours ago, speed-of-heat said: Stop trolling It is, or at least was a real bug. I haven't actually checked to see if that's been fixed, because it's generally easier to start off by telling the chief, place the wheel chocks, chief, remove the wheel chocks, instead of waiting until your ready to taxi and discovering the plane is glued down. Especially when any given flight may by summarily ended by a 2-year old who's discovers the cut-off detent gets daddy's attention...
speed-of-heat Posted December 16, 2023 Posted December 16, 2023 2 hours ago, Voyager said: Um, not sliding off the deck is quite central to carrier operations. Not sure sure what you are on about. It is, or at least was a real bug. I haven't actually checked to see if that's been fixed, because it's generally easier to start off by telling the chief, place the wheel chocks, chief, remove the wheel chocks, instead of waiting until your ready to taxi and discovering the plane is glued down. Especially when any given flight may by summarily ended by a 2-year old who's discovers the cut-off detent gets daddy's attention... Then you are off topic. SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware AMD 9800X3D, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO YOUTUBE CHANNEL: @speed-of-heat
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