From VR back to Head Tracking - my thoughts (Poll)

[Ala13_ManOWar]

8 hours ago, TomcatBall said:

Sorry @Swiss-Sim but everything what you wrote about the TrackIR is bull<profanity>. I know VR is not the best when it comes to performance. Did you really ever own TrackIR5? I don't believe you!

Before i got my TrackIR last week, i tested FacetracknoIR and it was horrible, the delay was like 3 seconds, i trashed it after 30 minutes. Then i installed the OpenTRack and AITrack and yes it was way better. I tested my 30 FPS webcam, it was nice, but it felt like DCS runs on 30 FPS. Then i purchased a 60 FPS webcam for 50 bucks and yes it was much better than the 30 FPS, make sense right? I actually was looking for 120 FPS webcam, but those are more expensive than TrackIR5, no point to get such one. I used the 60 FPS webcam with Opentrack + AITrack and every time i was playing, after 30 min. my eyes were hurting and had bad headache. Then i realized it is because of the head tracking, it didn't run smoothly enough for my eyes. Then i played with several settings and spend some hours, but i was not able to resolve this issue.

Then i finally got my TrackIR5 Gaming Set for 260 bucks. I would even pay 300 or 350 bucks. This is the best investment ever made and every penny is worth it. Its just smooth, easy to set up, very good software, it runs almost like VR 1:1, no headache any more, eyes are not hurting and i can set up my profile as i wish within seconds. This product may be old, but it simply works, absolutely not issues and DCS make so much fun now, as never before. 

For sure, for those who cant effort TrackIR5, OpenTrack + AITrack + 5,- Bucks 30 FPS webcam will do the job, but if you can afford, for the sake of your eyes get the TrackIR5, you wont ever regret. I have no idea, why it works such good, but i dont want to play DCS never again without TrackIR5. There is nothing comparable or alternative to TrackIR5, prove me wrong!

Thank you

Exactly my point time ago, you've been quite more straightforward than me though…

Edited September 19, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[SharpeXB]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:09 PM, Swiss-Sim said:

I just can't recommend TrackIR!

It’s funny you would say this about the product that’s the gold standard in head tracking. If you prefer those other solutions, that’s fine. My guess though is you did something wrong with TrackIR which is hard to figure since it works right out of the box. 

8 hours ago, TomcatBall said:

I tested my 30 FPS webcam, it was nice, but it felt like DCS runs on 30 FPS. Then i purchased a 60 FPS webcam for 50 bucks and yes it was much better than the 30 FPS, make sense right? I actually was looking for 120 FPS webcam, but those are more expensive than TrackIR5, no point to get such one.

Good point. If the DIY solutions use a 30 or 60Hz webcam they’re not going to be as smooth as TrackIR.

On 6/11/2023 at 7:09 PM, Swiss-Sim said:

For now, VR seems not being made for "heavy" graphics games. 

I agree with you here. I doubt VR will ever be able to perform well in demanding games like this.

[MAXsenna]

Wish I could get the NaturalPoint camera only, so I could use it + the software. I'm afraid that plastic flimsy looking thing wouldn't last one day with me. My metal Delanclip takes a beating daily!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Aquorys]

It would be interesting to hear whether any of the ED developers actually test DCS in VR, or - even better - actually use it at home in their spare time for fun, so they would have the actual user experience. And my next question would be whether it actually gets tested or used on hardware & software that an average user would likely have, like let's say, a 2 years old gaming rig that sold for maybe $ 2,000-3,000 bought new back then.

What I have seen way too often is developers stating that they can't reproduce a user's problem with some application, which starts to make sense once you realize that the user's platform is a 1,500 $ PC and the company's equipment is a 70,000 $ four-socket POWER9 with a terabyte of RAM and a RAID-10 of NVMe cards.

[TomcatBall]

vor einer Stunde schrieb MAXsenna:

Wish I could get the NaturalPoint camera only, so I could use it + the software. I'm afraid that plastic flimsy looking thing wouldn't last one day with me. My metal Delanclip takes a beating daily!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

Yes the plastic clip which you mount left side on your headphone feels very breakable, but it's very light, light as a feather with the IR sensors. I have no idea how long it will survive but seems O.K. And dude, the software is the best ever. You can use TrackIR5 with the metal clip, you can mount it on your headphone above instead on a baseball cap.

[Baldrick33]

6 minutes ago, Aquorys said:

It would be interesting to hear whether any of the ED developers actually test DCS in VR, or - even better - actually use it at home in their spare time for fun, so they would have the actual user experience. And my next question would be whether it actually gets tested or used on hardware & software that an average user would likely have, like let's say, a 2 years old gaming rig that sold for maybe $ 2,000-3,000 bought new back then.

What I have seen way too often is developers stating that they can't reproduce a user's problem with some application, which starts to make sense once you realize that the user's platform is a 1,500 $ PC and the company's equipment is a 70,000 $ four-socket POWER9 with a terabyte of RAM and a RAID-10 of NVMe cards.

@BIGNEWY uses Vr with a 10900 and 3090 according to his signature. Decent kit but not the latest and greatest.

It is also worth remembering VR can be very subjective. 60Hz is unplayable for me with a Reverb, less than 90 fps is a stuttering mess without reprojection. Others' experiences are the polar opposite. I tend to play lightweight single player missions so my opinion of VR performance will be very different from someone who wishes to play big multiplayer events.

[MIghtymoo]

I have been a TrackIR5 pancake screen DCS pilot for several years with both a 1440p widescreen and 4K. Always held back on the VR, «as it could not be that good»… «I would never go VR»… «VR preaching is tiring…» etc. Loved my monitor setup.
 

Tried VR for the first time a few months back and there is was WOW!!! Smooth 72 real fps with fairly good settings in 3850x3850 resolution. Looks great without AA. Also not missing the minor eyecandy from flat screen. 

Monitor and TrackIR is pretty good, but is nowhere as immersive and awesome as VR IF you have a powerful PC-rig.
If not VR can be just frustrating and plain out suck. 

VR is expensive if you want smooth frames (and no reprojection). Very demanding on the hardware. 

Would I go back? No!

Is good VR in DCS and other sims expensive? Yes, expensive compared to normal gaming and consoles.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by MIghtymoo

[MAXsenna]

Yes the plastic clip which you mount left side on your headphone feels very breakable, but it's very light, light as a feather with the IR sensors. I have no idea how long it will survive but seems O.K. And dude, the software is the best ever. You can use TrackIR5 with the metal clip, you can mount it on your headphone above instead on a baseball cap.

The Delanclip doesn't weigh anything to speak of. Even made it "wireless",(what a ridiculous buzzword), velcroed an old tiny weightless powerbank to the rightside of my headphones.
That clip is only reflectors, right?
Hmmm... Is it metal? Thought that one was plastic too. Interesting, maybe it can be modded with IR LEDs.
What would really love for the headset, would be a pair of metal "antlers" with active LEDs. Because my camera is high up on the top of my screen, and I have to tilt it down quite a lot.
In any case. I'm very happy with my current setup, and my computer doesn't do 60fps, but in the future I will most likely go for the real thing.
Doesn't NaturalPoint sell directly anymore?

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[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Doesn't NaturalPoint sell directly anymore?

Yes they do

https://www.trackir.com

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

That clip is only reflectors, right?

Right, it’s just thin metal with a baked on finish and reflectors. Fairly indestructible. They sell a visor cap to mount it on or it clips on any cap. 
https://www.trackir.com/accessories/

Edited September 19, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Hiob]

16 hours ago, TomcatBall said:

Sorry @Swiss-Sim but everything what you wrote about the TrackIR is bull<profanity>. I know VR is not the best when it comes to performance. Did you really ever own TrackIR5? I don't believe you!

Before i got my TrackIR last week, i tested FacetracknoIR and it was horrible, the delay was like 3 seconds, i trashed it after 30 minutes. Then i installed the OpenTRack and AITrack and yes it was way better. I tested my 30 FPS webcam, it was nice, but it felt like DCS runs on 30 FPS. Then i purchased a 60 FPS webcam for 50 bucks and yes it was much better than the 30 FPS, make sense right? I actually was looking for 120 FPS webcam, but those are more expensive than TrackIR5, no point to get such one. I used the 60 FPS webcam with Opentrack + AITrack and every time i was playing, after 30 min. my eyes were hurting and had bad headache. Then i realized it is because of the head tracking, it didn't run smoothly enough for my eyes. Then i played with several settings and spend some hours, but i was not able to resolve this issue.

Then i finally got my TrackIR5 Gaming Set for 260 bucks. I would even pay 300 or 350 bucks. This is the best investment ever made and every penny is worth it. Its just smooth, easy to set up, very good software, it runs almost like VR 1:1, no headache any more, eyes are not hurting and i can set up my profile as i wish within seconds. This product may be old, but it simply works, absolutely not issues and DCS make so much fun now, as never before. 

For sure, for those who cant effort TrackIR5, OpenTrack + AITrack + 5,- Bucks 30 FPS webcam will do the job, but if you can afford, for the sake of your eyes get the TrackIR5, you wont ever regret. I have no idea, why it works such good, but i dont want to play DCS never again without TrackIR5. There is nothing comparable or alternative to TrackIR5, prove me wrong!

Thank you

I think OP never really went deeply into TrackIR and make the curves fit his needs properly. Otherwise nothing of what he wrote about TrackIR makes much sense.

I too tried all the alternatives, including FaceTrackNoIR and Tobii, and nothing comes close to the „it just works“ of TrackIR. Most of the time the input lag is my biggest gripe with the alternatives. Yeah, the cam can loose track of the reflectors but that is also a matter of setting it up properly.

Well and I also happen to be one of „those“ „rare“ people that actually tried VR thoroughly and proved that you actually can go back. True, no Screen, no matter how good or big (48“ Oled in my case) can give you the depth perception. Can’t argue with that. But the negatives simply outweighed that for me. First and foremost the discomfort of wearing a steam chamber on your eyes and close second the lack of visual fidelity. (third place - the cumbersome use of other peripherals).

So, for me anyway, TrackIr is still the overall gold standard for DCS (and similar).

6 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Wish I could get the NaturalPoint camera only, so I could use it + the software. I'm afraid that plastic flimsy looking thing wouldn't last one day with me. My metal Delanclip takes a beating daily!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

ActuallyI can confirm that the passive TrackIR original clip is a) sufficient (with proper lighting - i.e. no direct sunlight) and b) pretty indestructible.

[MIghtymoo]

TrackIR5 is by far the best headtracker, IMHO. Also tried Tobii and OpenTrack (with iPhone 13 Pro). None are close.

Highly recommend the clip with IR lights.

TrackIR5 is smoothest when locked to 60fps (or alternatively native 120 fps).

I locked mine on 60 fps and got very smooth image. Alternatively set max fps to 60 and run G-sync if PC cant run stable 60 fps all the time.

Edited September 19, 2023 by MIghtymoo

[MAXsenna]

42 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yes they do

https://www.trackir.com

Duh... THANKS!!! For some reason I got to a completely different site. And Me oh My! They do sell only the camera. That's cool! And the price was different compared to the USD260,- One can wonder why people buy fakes for the same price.
@TomcatBall Where did the 260 come from?

Cheers!

 

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

ActuallyI can confirm that the passive TrackIR original clip is a) sufficient (with proper lighting - i.e. no direct sunlight) and b) pretty indestructible.

I always play in the dark.

[TomcatBall]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb MAXsenna:

Duh... THANKS!!! For some reason I got to a completely different site. And Me oh My! They do sell only the camera. That's cool! And the price was different compared to the USD260,- One can wonder why people buy fakes for the same price.
@TomcatBall Where did the 260 come from?

Cheers!

 

I always play in the dark.

LOL i like how you just decided what i purchased and why i paid more. 

The issue is, i dont live in an EU country and not in USA. I could order it directly, but then it would take few weeks to deliver to my location, god knows for how long. Then i would have to pay tax, delivery and customs duties. So if you can calculate, at the end i would have been waiting for a long time to get my product, and i would pay maybe much more than i paid: 170 + circa 100 (Tax, Delivery and custom duties at least) = 270!!! 

I ordered mine on Friday, and on Saturday morning it was in my P.O. Box. Here you can check my product where i bought i: https://www.digitec.ch/de/s1/product/natural-point-trackir-5-gamer-set-pc-gaming-controller-433766

I was aware of those cheaper copy products, but i decided to buy the original and would even pay 350,- for that great product. Did i answer you my friend?

[MAXsenna]

5 hours ago, TomcatBall said:

LOL i like how you just decided what i purchased and why i paid more. 

I, "LOL", didn't decide on nothing! Get that stick out of your arse! "Oh, the loops people jump through to get offended these days..."

No really, "joke mode off"! I apologise if I worded myself badly. It was an honest question out of curiosity because I'm in the same situation. Non EU/US. And I was just so happy I don't need to purchase that flimsy thing I would never use. 

Thanks for the link!

Cheers! 

[TomcatBall]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb MAXsenna:

I, "LOL", didn't decide on nothing! Get that stick out of your arse! "Oh, the loops people jump through to get offended these days..."

No really, "joke mode off"! I apologise if I worded myself badly. It was an honest question out of curiosity because I'm in the same situation. Non EU/US. And I was just so happy I don't need to purchase that flimsy thing I would never use. 

Thanks for the link!

Cheers! 

Who got offended? I did not recognize your writing as a question!
Glad you are satisfied with VR. I was able to get good FPS but i missed all that effects and the worst setting was to set VISIB. RANGE to low, then i got very good FPS. But i was not happy, it was like an empty map and those trees were spawning before my head. Then i would rather play VTOL lol. I got also my rtx 4090, it is cheaper now, but DCS and VR not good idea, if you want 4K graphics.

I am not very negative about VR, but the heat and the weight was recognizable after 2-3 hours flying VR. I was not able to use my keyboard and dogfight was for me very painful. First round, Second round all fine, then my neck was hurting like i was beaten up by a karate master. And i love dogfights and this was the final thing when i decided to throw the shiet in the garbage. with TrackIR i can beat your ass in Dogfight when ever you want, or if you are an owl then you may beat me lol.

but all that is only my opinion, and VR is not yet well optimized and it is not well thought out. It is literally not intended for PC gaming. When i hear the star citizen sheeps asking if Star Citizen would get VR Support, i just laugh at them.

Have a great time and check your six (if possible) 

[MAXsenna]

3 minutes ago, TomcatBall said:

Have a great time and check your six (if possible) 

Thanks! You too!
I don't do VR btw.

[TomcatBall]

Gerade eben schrieb MAXsenna:

Thanks! You too!
I don't do VR btw.

OK then forget my challenge for dogfight  

[MAXsenna]

1 minute ago, TomcatBall said:

OK then forget my challenge for dogfight  

Well, no cheating! Equal terms man!
I suck in BFM... Haha!

[Ala13_ManOWar]

31 minutes ago, TomcatBall said:

 … I was not able to use my keyboard and dogfight was for me very painful. First round, Second round all fine, then my neck was hurting like i was beaten up by a karate master …

You all wanted realism? Welcome to real life…

[Picchio]

On 9/19/2023 at 9:06 PM, Hiob said:

 

Out of curiosity (reading your description, I see a lot of my own experience), which HMDs did you try?

Edited September 23, 2023 by Picchio

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Picchio said:

Out of curiosity (reading your description, I see a lot of my own experience), which HMDs did you try?

 

I have a Valve Index. I use it occasionally for VR games (or at least I used to), and for a while I still hoped at least once in every new module to see the first person perspective and scale of the cockpit. But I gave up on actually flying in VR for the quoted reasons.

But it‘s just not for me. Maybe I try again, when VR headsets have half the weight, double the visual fidelity and double the performance of today (and a proper climate for your face).

For the time being though I may try TrackIR alternatives still to get rid off the head gear (face tracking), but so far none that I tried was convincing enough to ditch TrackIR.