Air Refuelling - update it!

[Bremspropeller]

On 7/23/2023 at 5:43 PM, SkateZilla said:

I get it, they are flying on vapors, but trying to ram the refueling probe through the cover, that cover could have broke off and gone into an intake, sparked and ignited jet fuel,
the list goes on.

It's a long way, walking into Thailand from Laos. Some heroic measures bourne out of desparation were performed*, tanker-crews not getting a fraction of credit of what would have been due.

Also, there's no intake downstream of the dorsal AAR receptacle in the Air Force F-4.

Also² jet fuel doesn't ignite on sparks just like that. Fuel vapor mixed with air at the correct ratio, however, does.

 

 

We need buddy-refuelling mechanics.

 

___

*e.g. "Pardo's Push"

Edited July 29, 2023 by Bremspropeller

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

It's a long way, walking into Thailand from Laos. Some heroic measures bourne out of desparation were performed*, tanker-crews not getting a fraction of credit of what would have been due.

Also, there's no intake downstream of the dorsal AAR receptacle in the Air Force F-4.

Also² jet fuel doesn't ignite on sparks just like that. Fuel vapor mixed with air at the correct ratio, however, does.

 

 

We need buddy-refuelling mechanics.

 

___

*e.g. "Pardo's Push"

 

Yeah in war official procedures might go out of the window.

Also stuff was more wild back then. They did stuff they just wouldn't do today. 

Other stories from the book include tankers flying into Indian country and staying there for hours far outside what they should do.

 

Or the incompetent F4 pilot almost killing himself and his GIB by doing completely wrong attack profile. 

Or the F8 pilot who shot his own rockets (I think they were rockets) with his sidewinder making everything blow up in his face. And having to fly home in a severely damaged and leaking F8 at night and land on a carrier. 

[Furiz]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:37 PM, Swiss-Sim said:

Hello there,

i can finally refuel my F-18 and to be honest, the physics in generally are outdated. I always wonder how DCS became such modern Sim, nice graphics, detailed aircraft and at the other side, it seems the devs just forgot something years ago to update. At firs i saw the Eurofighter Typhoon footage in DCS, where they did air refuelling, and that was something awesome. I usually played Falcon 4.0 then later BMS and then when i discovered DCS World i upgraded my PC and i love this Sim.

Today i was looking for Air Refuelling videos and i saw one from BMS, i thought, i will click on it just for fun. There is an Mirage but it use the F-16 MFDs etc. Its not a real Mirage. When you look this Video, go to Min. 2:39 and look from there the physics from the basket and even when the basket is connected, you will see the fuel coming out, like in real. I was looking like a mad dog at this video and asked me, why DCS, whyyyyy?

At 4:54 you will see after finishing, it will come gas again out, looks amazing man...

I hope, ED, you will improve that. I am even thinking about to install BMS again only for this LOL

Crazy

 

 

That has nothing to do with DCS, how will that help DCS?

also you should read the rules https://forum.dcs.world/guidelines/

[Germane]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Furiz:

That has nothing to do with DCS, how will that help DCS?

Well, it helped Swiss-Sim to show what he means 

[Swiss-Sim]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Furiz:

That has nothing to do with DCS, how will that help DCS?

also you should read the rules https://forum.dcs.world/guidelines/

What do you mean? Are you saying, that i am not allowed to post a Video from other Sim Game? I posted those Videos to show what i meant and what is possible to do, nothing else. We are adult people here and not kids, remember that please. ED are not idiots, they understand the context. And i mean, nobody from ED Team complained, but you did lol. 

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Swiss-Sim said:

What do you mean? Are you saying, that i am not allowed to post a Video from other Sim Game? I posted those Videos to show what i meant and what is possible to do, nothing else. We are adult people here and not kids, remember that please. ED are not idiots, they understand the context. And i mean, nobody from ED Team complained, but you did lol. 

Yes that’s what rule 1.15 means. You could easily make the same point with real AAR footage. 

[SkateZilla]

On 7/29/2023 at 5:52 AM, Bremspropeller said:

It's a long way, walking into Thailand from Laos. Some heroic measures bourne out of desparation were performed*, tanker-crews not getting a fraction of credit of what would have been due.

Also, there's no intake downstream of the dorsal AAR receptacle in the Air Force F-4.

Also² jet fuel doesn't ignite on sparks just like that. Fuel vapor mixed with air at the correct ratio, however, does.

 

 

We need buddy-refuelling mechanics.

 

___

*e.g. "Pardo's Push"

 

I wasn't talking about the aircraft's self intake, if there were other aircraft in formation etc.

Even then, bashing through the door would risk a lot, 

Some of the stories are about as fictional as the JAG "lower your Tail hook and I'll push your tomcat back to the boat with my windscreen" story.

23 hours ago, Swiss-Sim said:

What do you mean? Are you saying, that i am not allowed to post a Video from other Sim Game? I posted those Videos to show what i meant and what is possible to do, nothing else. We are adult people here and not kids, remember that please. ED are not idiots, they understand the context. And i mean, nobody from ED Team complained, but you did lol. 

The Rule Exists to remove arguments driven by comparative posting of videos from other sims, assuming the other sim is correct and DCS needs to change, and vise versa, and yes, those Arguments were happening all the time before the rule existed.

Even if the rule didn't exist, real world video evidence and proof would still be required, as basing an engine change off what another sim does isnt proof.

[Bremspropeller]

20 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Some of the stories are about as fictional as the JAG "lower your Tail hook and I'll push your tomcat back to the boat with my windscreen" story.

If you run the numbers in your mind, it's not that phantastic as it might seem at first glance.

Let's assume an empty weight of 14t and a L/Dmax of 8 for a clean jet - that's slightly conservative of the wiki numbers for an F-4E. That'll give us a push-force required of about 1.75t to keep level flight. Now, if we assume less than level flight, things get relatively believable quickly.

Not accounting for additional windmilling drag here, but it's entirely possible to push somebody around, especially if it's just stretching the glide.

[Swiss-Sim]

On 7/30/2023 at 9:16 PM, SharpeXB said:

Yes that’s what rule 1.15 means. You could easily make the same point with real AAR footage. 

As i know, those 2 videos are not directly from the game developers. Second, this game is not supported officially, this company even dont exist since +20 years. Third, the actual footage is from a game supported by the community ie. guys who played the original game 20 years ago, and they add new stuff, don't worry, for ED those guys are not a threat, i hope you can sleep better now. I simply dont understand those guys, dont you have to do something better? How i can add something to the wishlist for ED if i just add "make AAR better...." I have two choices: I create my own stuff but i am not able to do so or i show them something what others did. Specially, Developers were inspired by other developers, or how china become so strength? Because we let produce all our electronics by them, so they just copy and paste our electronics, and look now they are the number one in electronics and making robots. So ED can be inspired by those 2 videos and make it even better. Did i compare something here? Because this kind of guys like you exist, we have all kind of troubles and headaches, you make from a mosquito an elephant

Edited August 1, 2023 by Swiss-Sim

[SharpeXB]

26 minutes ago, Swiss-Sim said:

As i know, those 2 videos are not directly from the game developers. Second, this game is not supported officially, this company even dont exist since +20 years. Third, the actual footage is from a game supported by the community ie. guys who played the original game 20 years ago, and they add new stuff, don't worry, for ED those guys are not a threat, i hope you can sleep better now. I simply dont understand those guys, dont you have to do something better? How i can add something to the wishlist for ED if i just add "make AAR better...." I have two choices: I create my own stuff but i am not able to do so or i show them something what others did. Specially, Developers were inspired by other developers, or how china become so strength? Because we let produce all our electronics by them, so they just copy and paste our electronics, and look now they are the number one in electronics and making robots. So ED can be inspired by those 2 videos and make it even better. Did i compare something here? Because this kind of guys like you exist, we have all kind of troubles and headaches, you make from a mosquito an elephant

Literally… it’s a rule. Pretty simple to follow. Again you could just post a video of actual AAR and note things like the hose flex etc. Which of course they already know about. Realty is a better reference for comparison than another game. Comparing games is pointless and gets tedious.

Edited August 1, 2023 by SharpeXB

[SkateZilla]

Ok Guys, NO Need to argue about it now and prove why the rule exists.

His intentions were to better DCS in an area that does need some attention, and likely will be getting it.

Whether the videos came from another game or not at this point is moot.

[Snappy]

On 7/31/2023 at 6:31 PM, SkateZilla said:

Some of the stories are about as fictional as the JAG "lower your Tail hook and I'll push your tomcat back to the boat with my windscreen" story.

Slightly OT , but:

While I can easily imagine the JAG story line overdoing a bit, I'm pretty sure that episode was based on this impressive true feat,"Pardo's Push":

https://www.historynet.com/pardos-push-an-incredible-feat-of-airmanship/?f

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/pardos-push-180962402/

Where , during the Vietnam war ,  one battle-damaged F-4 indeed pushed another even more battle damaged ,engines-out F-4 , by its lowered arrestor hook (for emergency cable engagements, as they were both Air Force planes) against its windshield for  over 80 nautical miles , out of hostile terrain into a safer area, where both crews had to eject then. The crew was later awarded the silver star for it and rightly so.

Regards,

Snappy

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Snappy

[HawkEXO]

I would just settle for getting a warning before the tanker initiates a turn.  I don't care about vapors or graphics.

[Swiss-Sim]

10 hours ago, HawkEXO said:

I would just settle for getting a warning before the tanker initiates a turn.  I don't care about vapors or graphics.

Do they communicate when they turn to other direction? I can remember, somewhere in YT i heard from a real pilot, that when they fly to the tanker, they dont communicate through radio, but the pilot fly from left to the position where the tanker has visual to the other jet and give sign with hand (something like that). But maybe it depends on which tanker, maybe.

But yes, since we play virtual, you made a good point, before the tanker turn, a short warning sound like "we turn left/right" would be very nice.

[Vampyre]

How I think most DCS flyers will react to tanker turn direction announcements. 

 

[Swiss-Sim]

9 hours ago, Vampyre said:

How I think most DCS flyers will react to tanker turn direction announcements. 

 

 

[HawkEXO]

On 8/2/2023 at 6:59 AM, Swiss-Sim said:

Do they communicate when they turn to other direction? I can remember, somewhere in YT i heard from a real pilot, that when they fly to the tanker, they dont communicate through radio, but the pilot fly from left to the position where the tanker has visual to the other jet and give sign with hand (something like that). But maybe it depends on which tanker, maybe.

But yes, since we play virtual, you made a good point, before the tanker turn, a short warning sound like "we turn left/right" would be very nice.

If I'm understanding correctly... that's before you're connected.  I can deal with that.  What's hard is when I'm hooked up and stable then the tanker suddenly rolls 15 degrees to one side without any prior warning.

[Dragon1-1]

I think that the worst thing is that the tanker's turn is too slow and gentle. This means the turn takes forever, and the transitional state, which is the hardest part to keep connected through, also takes too long. Announcing the turn would help, but IMO, having proper tanker tracks would help even more. IRL, tankers don't toy around, the turn is steep and decisive, but it's also over quickly. Our tankers take forever to turn and they increase the bank angle too slowly, which ends up making things harder.

On 8/1/2023 at 11:19 PM, Snappy said:

(for emergency cable engagements, as they were both Air Force planes)

Just FYI, in this case, the hook was a full Navy-spec one. The Phantom started out as a Navy plane, and they didn't downgrade the hook for the USAF. The Air Force hooks are much flimsier and would have likely not supported this. 

[SharpeXB]

Hey try flying helicopters for a while. It makes AAR easy! I’ve been playing around with the AH-64 for a few weeks and am amazed how easily I hooked up in the Hornet today. Like I could just fall asleep tanking

 

[MAXsenna]

Hey try flying helicopters for a while. It makes AAR easy! I’ve been playing around with the AH-64 for a few weeks and am amazed how easily I hooked up in the Hornet today. Like I could just fall asleep tanking
 

Yup, I agree with this. Absolutely made me conquer the skill.

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