The WW2 planes - Zero ?

[Sledge41]

I think historically the one AXIS plane with the most prestige missing here is the Japanese Zero. 

Afterall the war was fought in the Pacific & actually got the US to declare War on Japan after a " Day that will live in infamy " !

Many of the crucial battles in WW2 when it comes to airpower was fought in the Pacific. 

I'm a little biased towards it as my father RIP - fought in the jungles of New Guinea. 

He had malaria 2 times & remember how they pulled names out of a hat to see WHO would go home ? 

Dad was one of the lucky winners. His unit was supposed to go to Iwa Jima soon after his name ws pulled. 

He came home to Chicago married my mother but had been recovering from his 2nd malaria bout during the wedding.

They were married 65 years before my mother passed. 

cfs2_ zero on fire 2.bmp

[Brigg]

On 7/11/2023 at 4:36 AM, Sledge41 said:

I think historically the one AXIS plane with the most prestige missing here is the Japanese Zero. 

Afterall the war was fought in the Pacific & actually got the US to declare War on Japan after a " Day that will live in infamy " !

Many of the crucial battles in WW2 when it comes to airpower was fought in the Pacific. 

I'm a little biased towards it as my father RIP - fought in the jungles of New Guinea. 

He had malaria 2 times & remember how they pulled names out of a hat to see WHO would go home ? 

Dad was one of the lucky winners. His unit was supposed to go to Iwa Jima soon after his name ws pulled. 

He came home to Chicago married my mother but had been recovering from his 2nd malaria bout during the wedding.

They were married 65 years before my mother passed. 

cfs2_ zero on fire 2.bmp 618.76 kB · 4 downloads

Lovely story but unfortunately I don't think this post belongs in the Jug wish list section  

[BIGNEWY]

moved to pacific wwii wish list

[YoYo]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:36 AM, Sledge41 said:

I think historically the one AXIS plane with the most prestige missing here is the Japanese Zero. 

Afterall the war was fought in the Pacific & actually got the US to declare War on Japan after a " Day that will live in infamy " !

Many of the crucial battles in WW2 when it comes to airpower was fought in the Pacific. 

I'm a little biased towards it as my father RIP - fought in the jungles of New Guinea. 

He had malaria 2 times & remember how they pulled names out of a hat to see WHO would go home ? 

Dad was one of the lucky winners. His unit was supposed to go to Iwa Jima soon after his name ws pulled. 

He came home to Chicago married my mother but had been recovering from his 2nd malaria bout during the wedding.

They were married 65 years before my mother passed. 

cfs2_ zero on fire 2.bmp 618.76 kB · 6 downloads

It has been brought up many times, of course, everyone is in favor of the model and sales records. I'm sure about that.

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

 

Agreed.  It will be an even more gaping, bleeding hole it the lineup after they release the Corsair.  What is the Corsair supposed to fight?  FW190?  Yes, I know, someone will dig up an exceedingly rare instance of Corsairs fighting in ETO, but that is not the matchup people who would buy the Corsair want.

I'll watch as see if at least a handful of AI Japanese models are released with the Asset Pack at the same time as the Corsair, otherwise I couldn't justify a $70 hangar queen.  The obvious pairing should be the Zero.  I've not heard of an ongoing project.  If they start today, you might see it in 5 years.  Mods are problematic for public servers.

At the very least I'd need to see AI assets delivered in the WWII Asset Pack at the same time to justify the corsair purchase.  Zero, Ki-43, N1K2-J, Ki-43.  Probably need some bombers to shoot at too.  Val, Ki-67.

But even that would only give you offline or PVE.

IMHO, it would have been better to flesh out the ETO more instead.  You already have at least a minimum stable there to work with.  Fleshing it out further would be a cherry on top.  

Unless they have a massive surprise in store for a complete Pacific lineup co-released with the Corsair.

 

IMHO,  WWII should be the next genre ED conquers.  They dominate Helo and modern jet.  They do NOT dominate WWII.  They could though.  If ED put the same effort into WWII as they do the modern computery stuff, they could take that space over too. 

That is the ripest ground to grab new users.  They could grab other sims pilots that are looking for something better.  They could be better with the right effort.  They have probably reached near saturation of the modern market.  WWII is a much gentler on-ramp for new customers.  The other sims have provided armies of potential customers trained up and ready to go if presented a better option.  Much easier for newcomers to get up to speed on that a massively complex system like an F-15.  They have to be cheaper and easier to develop.  You don't have the classification issues you have with modern stuff.

So much ripe fruit just sitting there ready for the plucking.  All ED has to do is to decide to reach out and take it.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[YoYo]

19 minutes ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

 

Agreed.  It will be an even more gaping, bleeding hole it the lineup after they release the Corsair.  What is the Corsair supposed to fight?  FW190?  Yes, I know, someone will dig up an exceedingly rare instance of Corsairs fighting in ETO, but that is not the matchup people who would buy the Corsair want.

I'll watch as see if at least a handful of AI Japanese models are released with the Asset Pack at the same time as the Corsair, otherwise I couldn't justify a $70 hangar queen.  The obvious pairing should be the Zero.  I've not heard of an ongoing project.  If they start today, you might see it in 5 years.  Mods are problematic for public servers.

At the very least I'd need to see AI assets delivered in the WWII Asset Pack at the same time to justify the corsair purchase.  Zero, Ki-43, N1K2-J, Ki-43.  Probably need some bombers to shoot at too.  Val, Ki-67.

But even that would only give you offline or PVE.

IMHO, it would have been better to flesh out the ETO more instead.  You already have at least a minimum stable there to work with.  Fleshing it out further would be a cherry on top.  

Unless they have a massive surprise in store for a complete Pacific lineup co-released with the Corsair.

 

IMHO,  WWII should be the next genre ED conquers.  They dominate Helo and modern jet.  They do NOT dominate WWII.  They could though.  If ED put the same effort into WWII as they do the modern computery stuff, they could take that space over too. 

That is the ripest ground to grab new users.  They could grab other sims pilots that are looking for something better.  They could be better with the right effort.  They have probably reached near saturation of the modern market.  WWII is a much gentler on-ramp for new customers.  The other sims have provided armies of potential customers trained up and ready to go if presented a better option.  Much easier for newcomers to get up to speed on that a massively complex system like an F-15.  They have to be cheaper and easier to develop.  You don't have the classification issues you have with modern stuff.

So much ripe fruit just sitting there ready for the plucking.  All ED has to do is to decide to reach out and take it.

 

 

For me, it's a weird  problem with Japanese planes of WWII in general, and the strangest thing applies to any simulator, notice. Also when it comes to Prepar3D, MSFS, there is poverty here too. Only the old IL-2 (Maddox time) had a lot to choose from, there was a great theater and many machines with the red circle.

After all, Japanese aviation was well developed at that time, they were produced in thousands, and, for example, Zero is the same Warbird as Spitfire, Mustang or Bf-109 for me. I don't understand why many creators and developers give a wide berth for planes with red circle and pretend they don't have aviation at all.

For me the best was Shiden-Kai but Id like to see Zeke of course, Hayabusa, Shoki and Val.

This topic is still waiting to be treated with dignity.

[DD_Fenrir]

46 minutes ago, YoYo said:

For me, it's a weird  problem with Japanese planes of WWII in general, and the strangest thing applies to any simulator, notice. Also when it comes to Prepar3D, MSFS, there is poverty here too. Only the old IL-2 (Maddox time) had a lot to choose from, there was a great theater and many machines with the red circle.

After all, Japanese aviation was well developed at that time, they were produced in thousands, and, for example, Zero is the same Warbird as Spitfire, Mustang or Bf-109 for me. I don't understand why many creators and developers give a wide berth for planes with red circle and pretend they don't have aviation at all.

For me the best was Shiden-Kai but Id like to see Zeke of course, Hayabusa, Shoki and Val.

This topic is still waiting to be treated with dignity.

Well, if you do some basic searching round these forums you'll understand why.

1. Data fidelity - the old sim you reference could get away with guestimates, suppositions and 'near enough' because it's game-engine wasn't of high enough fidelity that it would matter. 20 years on and we as a customer base expect (if not demand) that our study level, one-off aircraft models be far more detailed and precise simulations of reality than those of 20 years ago.

2. YOU NEED HIGH FIDELITY ENOUGH DATA TO WORK WITH - until fairly recently there was not the data set available for a great number of IJN/IJA aircraft to actually recreate them. Wind tunnel data? Nada. Contemporary pilots to interview to understand the nuance of the flight characteristics? Likewise. Christ, even the creators of that old sim you refer to said they had problems identifying the correct locations that individual instruments should be placed within the cockpit and even ended up with empty holes in the dash because they didn't know what was supposed to go in that hole. 20 years later, and whilst the word on the grapevine is that the situation has improved somewhat, there is still a language barrier, because much of the research is in Japanese and it is not commonly translated. Add to this that the crossover between Group A 'those in the best position to create modules' (which is a small percentage of people) and Group B native 'Japanese historians and archivists with an obsessive interest in WW2 Japanese Aircraft who can also speak fluent English' (also not a massive percentage of society) and you may start to grasp why the crossover is small. Certain other WW2 flight sim developers intimated that the research data is not easy to acquire, let alone in the detail levels that are demanded by customers these days. Christ, even ED couldn't source even P-47 wind tunnel data and were obliged to use CFD modelling to provide anything even close to realistic drag data; this a time consuming and therefore expensive process, btw, so in line with the other problems, instantly bloats the upfront costs a developer needs to account for and therefore the risk against a project. Thus it is a dissuading factor.

TLDR: Why don't they just make WW2 Japanese airplanes?!?! Cos it's a LOT OF WORK.

However, against all this we know we are getting an AI A6M from Magnitude 3 to accompany the F4U. There is hope that there is sufficient data out there to allow for this to eventually become a flyable module. They are also hinting at a Ki-84. 

Time will tell.

Edited July 12, 2023 by DD_Fenrir

[JD Swann]

14 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

However, against all this we know we are getting an AI A6M from Magnitude 3 to accompany the F4U.

Do we know this. I've looked and haven't been able to find this anywhere. There is a picture from Magnitude 3's Facebook page that shows a Zero but that could mean anything. I'd really like to see your source for this.

[DD_Fenrir]

This one?

I would say there's a good chance that, being on their official Facebook product page, having seen it intimated across many, many months of development, and a 3D mesh model of the A6m on their official website, it's a fairly bad secret.

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

 

I do not think WWII enthusiasts would prefer NO models at all, rather than a really good model based on imperfect data.  Models can be improved over time. 

If there is not enough data to make it perfect, there is also not enough data to prove it isn't perfect.  With ED's physics even a good educated guess could be a lot of fun and profitable.

Really good, shouldn't be the enemy of perfect.

4 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

 

This one?

I would say there's a good chance that, being on their official Facebook product page, having seen it intimated across many, many months of development, and a 3D mesh model of the A6m on their official website, it's a fairly bad secret.

 

If you are going to think that is an AI model they are adding despite no mention, why not go all the way and think it is a flyable model they are going to add with no mention?  Dream big if you are going to dream.

 

MEh.  That could be just a stock model they imported as a mod to make a screenshot.

They could say after the Corsair we are considering a Zero as the next project.  You'll get it in 5-8 years.

 

[MAXsenna]

2 minutes ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

 

I do not think WWII enthusiasts would prefer NO models at all, rather than a really good model based on imperfect data.  Models can be improved over time. 

If there is not enough data to make it perfect, there is also not enough data to prove it isn't perfect.  With ED's physics even a good educated guess could be a lot of fun and profitable.

Really good, shouldn't be the enemy of perfect.

I agree! Everything can be improved and "subject to change" as always. 

[DD_Fenrir]

6 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I agree! Everything can be improved and "subject to change" as always. 

 

11 minutes ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

 

I do not think WWII enthusiasts would prefer NO models at all, rather than a really good model based on imperfect data.  Models can be improved over time. 

If there is not enough data to make it perfect, there is also not enough data to prove it isn't perfect.  With ED's physics even a good educated guess could be a lot of fun and profitable.

Really good, shouldn't be the enemy of perfect.

 

A sentiment I don't necessarily disagree with. However...

Try building a business model on that and getting the necessary backers for the investments required to get it started.

Then as a 3rd party developer, getting ED to Quality Approve your model. ED have standards. My suspicion being that 'this is our best guess' doesn't cut much mustard when submitting an FM and 3D cockpit model for review.

You guys have a lot to learn about the commercial realities of software development.

Anyway, if Mag3 does not provide an AI A6M with (or not long after - let's say 6 months) the release of the F4U, I'll buy you both a M3 Corsair module. That's how confident I am. They've been dropping enough hints for long enough.

Edited July 12, 2023 by DD_Fenrir

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

9 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

You guys have a lot to learn about the commercial realities of software development.

 

That statement is a little arrogant.  I've been doing software development for 30 years and I've been involved in online WWII sims for longer than that.

I also know that other companies have produced Japanese WWII planes for their sims and the world didn't end.

FC3 models are in DCS.  Are they "perfect?"  Should they be removed?

Really good shouldn't be the enemy of perfect.

Edited July 12, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

17 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Anyway, if Mag3 does not provide an AI A6M with (or not long after - let's say 6 months) the release of the F4U, I'll buy you both a M3 Corsair module. That's how confident I am. They've been dropping enough hints for long enough.

 

That's what they are banking on.  That's your coin.

If they don't release a useful complement of at least AI Japanese fighters and bombers, I'll forgo the purchase for now.  I might pick it up in a couple of years when those are added, or it goes half price on a Summer sale.  

If they had release a Stuka instead, or an ME410, I'd snatch it up day one. Because it has a sufficient complement of ETO planes to make good use of it.

To each their own.

 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

On 7/12/2023 at 10:45 AM, DD_Fenrir said:

Anyway, if Mag3 does not provide an AI A6M with (or not long after - let's say 6 months) the release of the F4U, I'll buy you both a M3 Corsair module. That's how confident I am. They've been dropping enough hints for long enough.

 

Correction.  I have seen it mentioned that they will be releasing some Pacific War assets in parallel with the Corsair release.  That's smart.

While that would be a Necessary Condition for me to consider purchasing the Corsair on release, it might not be a Sufficient Condition.  

I'll probably hold off until there are playable Zeros to fly PVP against.

 

 

[AG-51_Razor]

For me, it's the inclusion of the Essex class carrier. I feel like the challenge of learning to fly the Corsair and operate it off the carrier properly will occupy quite a bit of my time and I am really looking forward to that. The rest is just icing on the cake.

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

2 hours ago, AG-51_Razor said:

For me, it's the inclusion of the Essex class carrier. I feel like the challenge of learning to fly the Corsair and operate it off the carrier properly will occupy quite a bit of my time and I am really looking forward to that. The rest is just icing on the cake.

 

That would be fun.  Not sure if it would be $70 worth of fun for me, but it is certainly something I will watch for on 1/2 price sale later.

 

 

[Art-J]

Rudel has been showing his once-private work on A6M5 external model for years, and talked about it in their last year podcast, so I agree AI version seems to be a possibility in 2023-24. Flyable one? Nah, I wouldn't count on it, not in upcoming years at least. We've been shown their next projects already: Crusader, some form of MiG-21 refresh and undisclosed "something modern under the tarp". When we add post-release bug-fixing of Corsair on top of that, I suspect they'll be too busy to fit yet another flyable warbird in that schedule. But after 2030? Sky's the limit ;).

I don't mind either way. For me DCS is cheaper alternative for MSFS, so I don't need map or unit assets to enjoy just flying particular aircraft. In my opinion there are too many issues with AI warbirds in DCS to make them useful in combat missions anyway. And that's core problem of the game only ED can solve, M3 guys can't do anything about it.

Thus, for me, If Corsair comes only with that carrier and Japanese tanks shown in WIP screens - great. If they add something more - even better. I do understand, however, some guys would prefer more thorough package for that 60-70 bucks.

 

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, Art-J said:

Rudel has been showing his once-private work on A6M5 external model for years, and talked about it in their last year podcast, so I agree AI version seems to be a possibility in 2023-24. Flyable one? Nah, I wouldn't count on it, not in upcoming years at least. We've been shown their next projects already: Crusader, some form of MiG-21 refresh and undisclosed "something modern under the tarp". When we add post-release bug-fixing of Corsair on top of that, I suspect they'll be too busy to fit yet another flyable warbird in that schedule. But after 2030? Sky's the limit ;).

I don't mind either way. For me DCS is cheaper alternative for MSFS, so I don't need map or unit assets to enjoy just flying particular aircraft. In my opinion there are too many issues with AI warbirds in DCS to make them useful in combat missions anyway. And that's core problem of the game only ED can solve, M3 guys can't do anything about it.

Thus, for me, If Corsair comes only with that carrier and Japanese tanks shown in WIP screens - great. If they add something more - even better. I do understand, however, some guys would prefer more thorough package for that 60-70 bucks.

 

I'm imagining trying to do shipping attacks in DCS in the corsair will be extremely frustrating given the super human accuracy of ship anti aircraft fire. And water landings are automatic pilot death. 

DCS is really not suited for ww2 Pacific warfare as it is now.

But of course I'll get the corsair. 

It's my nr 1 modual I'm waiting for.