Jamming Pod Effectiveness

[bop1701]

Is the jamming pod worth carrying (as far as DCS is concerned)?  I thought it was supposed to help deny a lock/range info at (say) 25+miles, or also to help break a lock once a missile goes active on you.   But I don't know.   Does anyone have some good info or advice on the pods?  Has anyone done some experimenting in the game?  I can see the pods being useful for SEAD and A2G, but does it help any in BVR?

Thanks

[razorseal]

There is a ton of videos on YouTube showing effectiveness. The answer is... it depends.

 

If you're going to run a sead, it might help by adding couple miles to your range.

 

I wouldn't bother in bvr. 

 

I don't carry it. There is alot of unknown with ECM and dcs just does a best guess on how it works. Kind of like IFF. We have a dumbed down version which adds like a mile or two to range in some sam sites.

 

Here are few vids

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bop1701]

Thanks - I've watched some vids but wanted info from the brain trust here.

[okopanja]

8 hours ago, bop1701 said:

Is the jamming pod worth carrying (as far as DCS is concerned)?  I thought it was supposed to help deny a lock/range info at (say) 25+miles, or also to help break a lock once a missile goes active on you.   But I don't know.   Does anyone have some good info or advice on the pods?  Has anyone done some experimenting in the game?  I can see the pods being useful for SEAD and A2G, but does it help any in BVR?

Thanks

The ECM is highly effective in BVR when properly used. When inproperly used it can actually increase the probability of getting killed.

As Wags would say in his famous viper video when jammer pod got introduced: "pros and cons, pros and cons".

First of all there are 2 kinds of jamming in DCS:

1. continuous, which denies range information
2. lock breaking which occurs only when your aircraft is locked. The pod detected when the STT lock occurs

Both of these affect radars and missiles in DCS.

Continuous has following benefits:

1. reduced SA of your opponent in most cases.
2. missiles lofting can not be calculated based on range, since it is obviously missing. Therefore the chosen guidance law is to follow the angular information only, which results in no loft, thus reduced range

The disadvantages are:

1. you alert opponent about your presence sooner
2. He can launch a missile in home-on-jam mode, which will allow him to quietly disengage while the missile still guides silently to the source of jamming signal: you .
3. Friendlies might be blinded by your jamming and launch missile in home-on-jam mode as well.

Lock breaking benefits:

1. you prevent guy from shooting you at longer range
2. he can not use home-on-jam, since the moment it is interrupted there s no signal anymore to guide on
3. you jam only on demand, thus not alerting too much about your presence

Lock breaking disadvantages:

1. SA of your opponent is not spoiled, he knows your range from scans.

Others are welcome to add more if I missed something.

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by okopanja

[Gunfreak]

I've tested the pod vs AI and is very effective. Flying straight at a J11 armed with Fox 3. I could fire off my amraams at 35 ish miles. Without pod the J11 fired back and its Fox chased me for a long time. Until  it ran out of speed.

With jammer pod, I could just fire of my Amraam continue flying straight a head. And the J11 had to go defensive, then it blew up without having fired a shot.

[skywalker22]

59 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

I've tested the pod vs AI and is very effective. Flying straight at a J11 armed with Fox 3. I could fire off my amraams at 35 ish miles. Without pod the J11 fired back and its Fox chased me for a long time. Until  it ran out of speed.

With jammer pod, I could just fire of my Amraam continue flying straight a head. And the J11 had to go defensive, then it blew up without having fired a shot.

AI is not human. Go to some PvP multiplayer server, you will get a complete different opinion

I don't use ECM at all, and I do just fine on PvP servers. It might only be good when fighting Phoenix missile, but even that it is pretty easty to notch (if you know you are fighting an F-14 of course).

The thing is, ECM in DCS is/are prety simplicitic (there is only noise jamming), and quite far from a real world. In modern warfare the ECM works on deception jamming.

Edited July 23, 2023 by skywalker22

[Raptor9]

The ECM pods on DCS F16 can be employed in both Noise (Mode 3) and Deception (Mode 1 and 2) jamming modes, as described in the manual.

I've personally done testing in this regard and have had many instances where missiles have simply blown past me when I was jinking around trying to egress from a target area when I was out of chaff.

As with many things in DCS, if improperly employed, it will have limited effectiveness or no effectiveness. If doing air-to-air missions, I don't bother carrying it because I prefer to maximize my maneuverability (can't jettison it). But when doing SEAD or air-to-ground strikes against targets defended by SAMs where Im trying to rush in and rush out, it can actually be quite useful.

[Gunfreak]

34 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

AI is not human. Go to some PvP multiplayer server, you will get a complete different opinion

I don't use ECM at all, and I do just fine on PvP servers. It might only be good when fighting Phoenix missile, but even that it is pretty easty to notch (if you know you are fighting an F-14 of course).

The thing is, ECM in DCS is/are prety simplicitic (there is only noise jamming), and quite far from a real world. In modern warfare the ECM works on deception jamming.

 

OP didn't ask about MP only the game. I specified SP exactly so the OP would know it was SP and not MP.

[skywalker22]

24 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

The ECM pods on DCS F16 can be employed in both Noise (Mode 3) and Deception (Mode 1 and 2) jamming modes, as described in the manual.

I've personally done testing in this regard and have had many instances where missiles have simply blown past me when I was jinking around trying to egress from a target area when I was out of chaff.

Do you have a proof in a matter of saved tracks, and share with us?

[skywalker22]

34 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

OP didn't ask about MP only the game. I specified SP exactly so the OP would know it was SP and not MP.

MP is not the game?  I am just saying AI is not human.

[MAXsenna]

10 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

MP is not the game?  I am just saying AI is not human.

Pretty sure he meant that OP didn't ask about MP specifically, but the workings of ECM in general "in the game". And that's why he specified his experience in SP, as opposed to  your experience in MP, which you did not specify.

I do agree with your take on Razbam though.

Cheers! 

Edit: Actually, to be fair, he didn't mention SP, only AI.  

Edited July 23, 2023 by MAXsenna

[skywalker22]

12 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Edit: Actually, to be fair, he didn't mention SP, only AI.  

Are you sure? 

[MAXsenna]

15 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

Are you sure? 

Triple checked!

[skywalker22]

2 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Triple checked!

Awesome 

[NineLine]

7 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Do you have a proof in a matter of saved tracks, and share with us?

Sorry, that's not how this works. Raptor is a very busy person, we are not going to supply tracks every time to prove it's working, he gave you the steps to use properly, do that and if it is not working as suggested then you can provide a track showing a bug. Thanks.

[Exorcet]

22 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

It might only be good when fighting Phoenix missile, but even that it is pretty easty to notch (if you know you are fighting an F-14 of course).

 

The pods are effective against just about everything. AMRAAM won't loft if it's jammed, which is huge Pk reduction.

[Nealius]

On the SEAD side the long pod used to be effective against SA-2, causing an immediate dropped lock after launch when head-on the threat and on the extremis of the SA-2's WEZ. However now (update just prior to today's update), the long pod is wholly ineffective against the SA-2 in the same scenario, with missiles continuing to track 2~3nm outside the WEZ. Will need to test again with today's update.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Nealius

[whiteladder]

I think the situation when using any pod against Sam systems (with the stock game, and no sam scripts running) is quite complicated.  If you are on a strike mission, using the jammer might create a gap in the Wez between 2 site that allows you to sqeeze through, however if there is a bigger enough overlap between 2 sites running the pod prior to being locked is a bad idea. 

This is simple because generally the Sam sites are so dumb and will always launch at you at the earliest opportunity, which is good for the pilot because it gives you the best chance defeat the missile kinematically ie bleed its energy. With the pod switched on all the time all that is happening is pushing the engagement closer to the Sam sites no escape zone, I don`t think the deception jamming give a bigger enough safety margin to outweigh facing missiles with much high energy. In fact against the stock game on SEAD missions you could argue that saving the weight by not taking the pod and using Israeli wagon wheel tactics are the most effective way to deal with Sam sites, you want the most shots at you at the longest range, and then hit the site while the launchers are empty.

[skywalker22]

6 hours ago, Nealius said:

On the SEAD side the long pod used to be effective against SA-2, causing an immediate dropped lock after launch when head-on the threat and on the extremis of the SA-2's WEZ. However now (update just prior to today's update), the long pod is wholly ineffective against the SA-2 in the same scenario, with missiles continuing to track 2~3nm outside the WEZ. Will need to test again with today's update.

 

Long? LoL. All 3 are the same

[Nealius]

17 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Long? LoL. All 3 are the same

Doesn't change the factuality of my statement.

[WHOGX5]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:10 AM, Nealius said:

On the SEAD side the long pod used to be effective against SA-2, causing an immediate dropped lock after launch when head-on the threat and on the extremis of the SA-2's WEZ. However now (update just prior to today's update), the long pod is wholly ineffective against the SA-2 in the same scenario, with missiles continuing to track 2~3nm outside the WEZ. Will need to test again with today's update.

 

IMO jammers are pretty much useless in DCS except for A-A combat. Even an SA-5 will launch at close to max range even if you're barrage jamming. This wasn't the case before where ECM would usually half the engagement range, so something has indeed changed.

[Braunn]

ECM pods, short or long, is a crap shoot for me. As a noise generator it works best for me. Step 1 & 2 to break the lock from a SAM works 50% of the time and it depends almost entirely what search radar has you locked. 

 

But for SEAD I can't wait to drag the ALN 50 Towed Decoy. They saved lives during Iraq 1 & 2. They are proven to work. ECM pods I assume is harder to find documentation on "effectiveness" as it's harder to analyze what actually made the missile fail to hit the jet. Towed decoys you know worked if they're gone.