Dual Purpose Naval Guns

[MBot]

This is an old request of mine which I keep depositing every few years. Most of the high caliber naval guns in DCS should be dual purpose, capable to engage both surface and air targets. I would like  to see DP naval guns engage aircraft and missiles with time fused or VT shells.

Now that the land based KS-19 AA-gun is in the game, the code might be there to make the naval guns anti-air capable finally.

[Linx]

+1

That would be something.

 

[Silver_Dragon]

That has a missing feature on all naval modern guns from lomac.

All UsNavy, Russian Navy, Royal Navy and PLAN has capables vs aircrafts, and some vs sea skimmer missiles.

The problem has the lack of info and not a dedicated "Sea team" on DCS World.

Enviado desde mi CPH2197 mediante Tapatalk

[Northstar98]

+99999

Funnily enough, Mk 38, Bofors 40, CIWS' and numerous other guns have been dual-purpose in DCS for as long as I can remember (even for systems that shouldn't like the Phalanx Block 1 on the Forrestal), though maybe there's the issue of the AI being able to select different ammunition types (and at the moment, only generic point-detonating HE rounds are available for naval guns).

EDIT: There is a larger calibre naval gun in DCS that is dual-purpose - the 3"/50 Mk 20 and 5"/38 Mk 12 guns on the LS Samuel Chase. However, it only appears to have a time fuse shell available (leading to airbursts against surface targets). If we had the various round types available (or at least the fuses, as sometimes a projectile will be common, just fitted with different fuses) and the AI was able to select which it should use based on the target, we'd be catered for (of course providing that projectiles can utilise proximity fuses and not just time fuses).

Edited December 18, 2023 by Northstar98
Addendum

[Slippa]

Have you seen these?

Not exactly what you’re after but…

[MBot]

21 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

though maybe there's the issue of the AI being able to select different ammunition types

That may be one of the problems. The 57mm AK-725 on the new Ropucha class in DCS actually engage both air and surface targets and in either case it uses the same ammunition. Which is fine as the AK-725 only has impact fused shells. But it shows that dual purpose in DCS is possible in principle.

Another problem may be that DCS cannot handle proximity fuses for shells. Some DP naval guns shoot time fused anti-air shells though, which already exist in DCS.

[upyr1]

10 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The problem has the lack of info and not a dedicated "Sea team" on DCS World.

Starting a naval team is long overdue. DCS is the least developed in the area of naval warfare. 

[upyr1]

My wish list for naval assets would be the following

dual-purpose guns as requested,

The ability to alter missile and ammo load out

This goes for all artillery the ability to work with a spotter.

Formations- this would be nice to at least have them keep in a formation

The ability to preload landing craft with troops and vehicles 

Make amphibious warfare ships a spawning point for landing craft and amphibious vehicles. 

More ships- some that I can name on the of my head

USSR / Russia- 

Udaloy and Sovremny class destroyers

Kiev-class Vtol carrier

Ivan Rogov and other amphibious assault ships

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China-

Lailong

Type 55

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US Navy- late cold war

Knox class Frigate

Spruance and kid-class destroyers

The Long Beach or other CGNs

1980s Iowa class battleships

Vietnam

a top request here is an angled deck Essex class aircraft carrier

Galveston-class cruisers

 

WWII and Korea-

the Marianas and D-day invasion fleets, Des Moines class heavy-cruisers and while they only saw action in Okinawa I would like the Alaska class-battle cruisers

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Royal Navy-

Anything that isn't being added in the South Atlantic map

I'd love to have the Ark Royal carrier battle group and the D-day invasion fleet

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Japan-

the Marianas fleet

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Germany-

Bismark class battleships 

Pocket battleships

in short anything WW II so we can have a what if 

[Northstar98]

On 8/5/2023 at 1:23 PM, Silver_Dragon said:

The problem has the lack of info.

While there isn't much for Western guns (you can typically found round designations but not specifications on the fusing (for the most part)), ru.wikipedia does seem to have some fuse specifics for the Soviet/Russian naval guns featured in DCS:

• AK-100:
  • UOF-58: HEF projectile with 1.53 kg (of presumably AI-X-2) explosive, V-429 impact fuse.
  • UZS-58: AA projectile with DVM-60M1 time fuse.
  • UZS-58R: AA projectile with AR-32 radar fuse (set to trigger at 5 m against missiles and 10 m against aircraft).
• AK-130:
  • F-44: HE projectile with 3.56 kg (of presumably AI-X-2) explosive, 4MRM impact fuse.
  • ZS-44: AA projectile with 3.56 kg (of presumably AI-X-2) explosive, DVM-60M1 time fuse.
  • ZS-44R: AA projectile with 3.56 kg (of presumably AI-X-2) explosive, AR-32 radar proximity fuse (triggers at 8 m when fired against missiles, triggers at 15 m against aircraft).
• AK-176*:
  • UZSB-62RP: AA ZS-62 projectile w/ 400 g of AI-X-2 explosive, AR-51L radar proximity fuse which triggers <= 8 m from the target.
  • UOFB-62: HEF OF-62 projectile w/ 480 g of AI-X-2 explosive, point detonating fuse which self-destructs after 28-31 s

*Note, while the link for the AK-176 is actually for the AK-726, they allegedly share the same ammunition.

EDIT: Found information on the OTO Melara 76 mm/62 Compact [Mark 75], the AA round that it uses is the IM84 HE-PFF with 0.76 kg of composition B explosive, VTPA FB76 radar proximity fuse (which also supports point-detonation and self-destruction), which triggers 6 m from the target and nominally self-destructs after 25 s. This fuse can also used on the 76 mm L62 HE round.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Northstar98
Added 76 mm/62 OTO Melara Compact

[Northstar98]

As it's now been announced that we can expect to see a Fletcher DD, Iowa BB and Cleveland CL as PTO assets, I wanted to bump this request.

Ordnance Pamplet 1164 (circa 1947) has pretty much all the information required, navweaps.org includes ballistic tables (see here for the 5"/38 Mark 12, see here for the 6"/47 Mark 16).

The 5"/38 Mark 12 has a whole load of different A.A. Common rounds with either mechanical time (MT) or proximity (VT) fused rounds, many can be found under 5-inch projectiles, MT fuses can be found beginning here and VT fuses beginning here. Typical characteristics of 5-inch VT fuses are a minimum range of about 600 - 1000 yds and a function distance of ~60-80 ft against aircraft. Over water, fuses without wave-suppression will function between 75 - 130 ft, with wave-suppression 10 - 50 ft.

The 6"/47 Mark 16 gun is a bit easier to pin down:

• H.C. Mark 39:
  • Mk 18 Mod 2/3/4 / Mk 50 / Mk 63 Mod 0 MT
  • Mk 47 Mod 0 VT (min. range 800 yd, max. function distance ~80 ft against aircraft, ~10-30 ft above water)

Edited February 8 by Northstar98

[Mr_sukebe]

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but do the WW2 allied AAA have proximity fused shells?

[twistking]

30 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but do the WW2 allied AAA have proximity fused shells?

The British and Americans did. It was quite the technological breakthrough and was kept somewhat secret, so i'm not sure if they shared it with other allies.

Edited February 7 by twistking

[Mr_sukebe]

58 minutes ago, twistking said:

The British and Americans did. It was quite the technological breakthrough and was kept somewhat secret, so i'm not sure if they shared it with other allies.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean whether we had them for real, I meant within DCS.

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but do the WW2 allied AAA have proximity fused shells?

Nope - only MT fuses.

Nor does any naval gun (when nearly all the current ones should). The 5"/38 on the Samuel Chase also only has an MT fused round.

Edited February 7 by Northstar98

[Mr_sukebe]

Thanks for confirming.

Thats a bit of an “area of opportunity”.

[Northstar98]

With the Essex in the newsletter this could probably do with a bump.

The Essex has 5"/38 guns, which one of, if not the most, prolific dual purpose gun of the war.

The AI is already capable of engaging both aerial and land/surface targets with the same gun (easily seen with land-based AAA) and the AI appears to be able to select appropriate ammunition for appropriate targets (BTR-82A for instance will switch to APCBC-T to engage targets that the HE-T round won't damage).

Even if its timed fuses in the interim, while we wait for proximity fused ammunition. 

[Silver_Dragon]

No only the Essex, remember ED has talked on February about the WW2 Pacific Assets Pack, with the USN and IJN ships, that has all DP Guns, and actuly we need a update if has plans about make a more necesery feature on the Core to all WW2 and Modern ships.

The problem will be, the lack of all fire control on ships. That not help to simulate DP Guns with a propper missing systems.

[Northstar98]

52 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The problem will be, the lack of all fire control on ships.

What fire-control problem? Oerlikon Mk 7, Bofors 40 mm, AK-630, AK-725, numerous small-arms etc, even the 5"/38 on the Samuel Chase - all are capable of engaging air targets.

All are capable of leading targets and compensating for elevation/range differences, why should larger calibre guns be any different? And it's not like we don't have naval gun calibre-like land-based AAA.

Unless you mean realistically depicting ship fire-control, radars and the such like. The same issue is true for ground units so that's not really here nor there as far as in-game functionality is concerned.

Edited May 30 by Northstar98

[Silver_Dragon]

40 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

What fire-control problem? Oerlikon Mk 7, Bofors 40 mm, AK-630, AK-725, numerous small-arms etc, even the 5"/38 on the Samuel Chase all are capable of engaging air targets.

All are capable of leading targets and compensating for elevation/range differences, why should larger calibre guns be any different? And it's not like we don't have naval gun calibre-like land-based AAA.

Unless you mean realistically depicting ship fire-control, radars and the such like. The same issue is true for ground units so that's not really here nor there as far as in-game functionality is concerned.

That is the actual DCS W problem, all DCS Guns work on "God Mode", with always know the propper FC solution (added some error parameters to simulate WW2 environment, etc).... we dont have a propper optical measure mechanist, and the limitations on FC to, only a "simple" formula with working on all systems (land / sea / air). And yes, I like see a propper realistic fire control on a ship (If ED someone build a "propper" sea module) or land.

Only a little "problem" about know the measures of a ship attacking a air target on WW2. The level of required calculus, only to a air target has demential. The problem has simulate them on a "realistic" WW2 FC, with have only 2 modes, of assisted fire control (optica/radar) vs a very limited quantity of air targets, or turn on a "decrepated" Local contol by optical / manual systems with Mk1 Eye Ball.
https://www.maritime.org/doc/firecontrol/partg.php
https://www.maritime.org/doc/symbols/index.php#toc

Same situation with the sea fire control
https://www.maritime.org/doc/firecontrol/partf.php

And about VT fuzes. The problem has be no only simulate the AAA versions, missing all about rockets and bombs.
https://maritime.org/doc/vtfuze/index.php

 

Edited May 30 by Silver_Dragon

[MBot]

Bumb for dual purpose naval guns on existing ships in DCS.

[upyr1]

I've got a track here may be I'm eating the wrong mushrooms again but it looks like ESSEX scored anti-air kills with her 5-inch guns this needs to be added to every ship though

[Northstar98]

13 hours ago, upyr1 said:

I've got a track here may be I'm eating the wrong mushrooms again but it looks like ESSEX scored anti-air kills with her 5-inch guns this needs to be added to every ship though

Yeah, 5"/38 guns have been dual-purpose-ish since the introduction of the Samuel Chase, with the Essex I seem to have mixed results, where the same threat setup in 2 different missions leads to inconsistent results. See here. I haven't tested since the initial update though, so this may be out of date. EDIT: Nope and the Samuel Chase appears to be affected also, just less so.

Why -ish? Because at the moment these guns only have one type of shell, which is time-fused - against aircraft this is mostly fine (though VT, i.e. proximity-fused shells were in circulation from at least '43 onwards) but for surface/land targets that aren't soft, these rounds (unless they impact before the time-fuse functions) are mostly ineffective.

What we need are multiple shell types for ships - a point detonating round (at least, though some guns should also have AP/SAP rounds that offer post-impact detonation) and a time-fused round or a proximity-fused round (though ideally both, where applicable - though illumination should also be on the table, less relevant for this thread though).

However, just about every post-WWII naval artillery should receive multiple round types, where applicable.

Edited July 14 by Northstar98

[upyr1]

23 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Yeah, 5"/38 guns have been dual-purpose-ish since the introduction of the Samuel Chase, with the Essex I seem to have mixed results, where the same threat setup in 2 different missions leads to inconsistent results. See here. I haven't tested since the initial update though, so this may be out of date.

Why -ish? Because at the moment these guns only have one type of shell, which is time-fused - against aircraft this is mostly fine (though VT, i.e. proximity-fused shells were in circulation from at least '43 onwards) but for surface/land targets that aren't soft, these rounds (unless they impact before the time-fuse functions) are mostly ineffective.

What we need are multiple shell types for ships - a point detonating round (at least, though some guns should also have AP/SAP rounds that offer post-impact detonation) and a time-fused round or a proximity-fused round (though ideally both, where applicable - though illumination should also be on the table, less relevant for this thread though).

However, just about every post-WWII naval artillery should receive multiple round types, where applicable.

This was the first time I saw an 5-inch gun get a kill