Your Love - DCS F15E or F16C ?

[Njinsa]

I beg to differ.

It's important to some people and by all means not ultimately critical for others which have another idea about F-15E use cases and prefer it over competition in spite of current or permanent limitations.

F-15E is already a excellent DCA platform but it takes time, skill and some good will to master it. Radar set already makes both 16/18 quite uneasy in 'one on one' which in turn leaves them happy in limited scenarios like you described. Huge growth potential of this platform lies in dual crews which are already a thing amongst die-hard fans not usually visiting those MP. Experienced Pilot/WSO tandem consisting of 2 or more ship config will soon prove to turn odds in different direction.

BTW, TFR came in F-15E alongside LANTIRN IOC in 1991. That defines it as integral part of system with at least 10 year precedence before FDL was fielded IRL. There are more features that fits into same timeline or prove to be an easier task for developers (i.e. available documentation, less reliance on ED site etc.).

After all, I trust they have a well thought roadmap providing balance between gameplay, fidelity and stability. 

Manage expectations or move on.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Njinsa

[Braunn]

21 hours ago, Miro said:

Datalink is announced in the future, if there is no AWACS on the server, then no one has a global Datalink, if it is, I don't have it in the F-15E, and the F-16, 18, Mirage 2000 and even the SU-27 have them, although FC3 aircraft are not I count as full-fledged modules. Two pieces of F-16 without AWACS are able to handle a larger number of F-15E without a problem, one highlights, transmits with Datalink, and the other sneaks up and shoots down one by one. On modern era servers, this is a very important factor affecting the survivability of the crew on the battlefield, much more than TF radar, which we get sooner than Dlink...

That scenario is because the F15 isnt ready yet. I'm not even bothering with the F15 right now. Even when both have datalink it's the radar thats going to be the deciding factor outside of a merge. 

 

[Rainmaker]

On 9/7/2023 at 12:13 PM, Miro said:

Datalink is announced in the future, if there is no AWACS on the server, then no one has a global Datalink, if it is, I don't have it in the F-15E, and the F-16, 18, Mirage 2000 and even the SU-27 have them, although FC3 aircraft are not I count as full-fledged modules. Two pieces of F-16 without AWACS are able to handle a larger number of F-15E without a problem, one highlights, transmits with Datalink, and the other sneaks up and shoots down one by one. On modern era servers, this is a very important factor affecting the survivability of the crew on the battlefield, much more than TF radar, which we get sooner than Dlink...

Or thats a sign of poor tactics on the part of the E model flyers…not sorting radar scans between them so the tactic is negated. 

[Braunn]

On 9/5/2023 at 3:54 PM, Nealius said:

I have both as well. My "first love" so to speak was the F-16 from flight sims before DCS. Loved the SEAD role, loved the tight, high-G turn capability, and the HOTAS ergonomics. But in DCS I just don't click with it as well anymore because my control inputs come out really mushy and imprecise, like I'm fighting with the FLCS instead of working with it. Then came along the DCS F-14 and the raw man-machine link, feeling like the plane reads my mind before I even move the stick. The F-15E fits that too, but with more ordnance, more BVR capability, low-level night capability, and no faffing about with an AI in the back seat to get a task done. I pretty much only fly two-seat tennis courts now. 

You know, I tried the Tomcat for a few fly outs and I really really really like the flight controls. Even trapped on the boat on first try, meatballs be damned. It really is a man machine type of bird. But then jumped back into the Viper and just adapted to the FBW again. Once you get used to delegating "some" of your control to the computer and realize that the F-16 will always try to keep you at 1G and stuff like that, it becomes much easier to flick it around like you're in an air show. The more this thread evolves the harder it is to pick a "second love" tbh. Now I'm sitting in a Hornet trying to learn THAT thing. The F15E to me feels mushy but as mentioned already, it's not done yet. 

If I may suggest, and if you have curves set up on your Viper inputs, don't. Keep it all linear. Only put as much deadzone you need to correct off center inputs from your HOTAS. 

[Nealius]

17 hours ago, Braunn said:

Once you get used to delegating "some" of your control to the computer and realize that the F-16 will always try to keep you at 1G and stuff like that, it becomes much easier to flick it around like you're in an air show.

Issue I'm having is the force-sensing stick simulation when I'm using a regular springed stick on a 20cm extension. With 0 curves my inputs are delayed and sluggish. WIth negative curves to get rid of that delay and sluggishness, they get sloppy. Pitch is the worst, with frequent G overshoots. Really no consistency in moving the stick x-amount to get x-amount of movement, whereas in the F-15E, Tomcat, literally every other jet (even Hornet) I know exactly where to put the stick to get exactly what bank angle, pitch, G, etc. I want.

[Braunn]

7 hours ago, Nealius said:

Issue I'm having is the force-sensing stick simulation when I'm using a regular springed stick on a 20cm extension. With 0 curves my inputs are delayed and sluggish. WIth negative curves to get rid of that delay and sluggishness, they get sloppy. Pitch is the worst, with frequent G overshoots. Really no consistency in moving the stick x-amount to get x-amount of movement, whereas in the F-15E, Tomcat, literally every other jet (even Hornet) I know exactly where to put the stick to get exactly what bank angle, pitch, G, etc. I want.

Here's my 2c on it.

Zero curves and seat time needed if you really want to learn it. Drop the stick extension. I tried it in the Viper and boy was it a pain. I couldn't fly it. That was with only 6cm extension!! The extension is basically what makes it sluggish for you, and I cant imagine how difficult it must be with a loooong 20cm extension at that, because the FBW and computer in the Viper IS trying to hold the jet steady at all times. I think they have that modelled very good. But that's when you're inside of fine adjusting stick movements and with your 20cm extension I can imagine it does get sluggish and inaccurate for you when you introduce curves as well. Especially negative curves, which only serves to play to your FLCS computers wishes of holding it steady. So to better simulate the force sensing Viper stick I would suggest the shortest stick possible to make the movements as small as possible while that also introduce the most input to your flight computer. If that makes any sense. Think of the F-16 flight computer and FBW system as driving around with constant autopilot, because basically that's what it is. To overcome it, you need to tell it. Hard.  

Example: I just did some AAR refueling first time practice in the Hornet yesterday and set my curves to 0, well because I only really know the F-16, and boy did I PIO the crap outta that plane. Set curves to 15 for the Hornet and hit the basket on first try with no disco. With the Viper I cannot use curves at all. No change getting that boom connected for any period without disco. 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Braunn

[Tenkom]

When I fly the F15 I miss the avionics, open cockpit, acceleration, maneuverability of the viper.

When I fly the viper I miss the power(especially when carrying a decent load), top speed and the fuel to hang around at top speed for a while, RADAR.

I can't choose tbh.

[Nealius]

4 hours ago, Braunn said:

Drop the stick extension.

Might as well shelve the F-16 at that point to be honest. I need the extension to fly literally everything else I frequently fly, and swapping out extensions is a pain--not to mention no mount for anything without an extension so I'd have to buy that too.

[Braunn]

5 hours ago, Nealius said:

Might as well shelve the F-16 at that point to be honest. I need the extension to fly literally everything else I frequently fly, and swapping out extensions is a pain--not to mention no mount for anything without an extension so I'd have to buy that too.

Yeah your problem seem awfully similar to mine when I had my short extension. But I'm set with a right stick mounted pretty high kinda similar to the F-16 and you're not. I have nothing in between my legs. Errrr, thats what she said. (?) 

[Grimleo]

3 hours ago, Braunn said:

Yeah your problem seem awfully similar to mine when I had my short extension. But I'm set with a right stick mounted pretty high kinda similar to the F-16 and you're not. I have nothing in between my legs. Errrr, thats what she said. (?) 

My solution is to have a Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 mounted center with extension, and a Warthog Joystick mounted sideways. 

 

[Grimleo]

What spawn of Satan the P/S 2 connector is. I spend a good three hours trying to get the joystick hooked up. Still working on it.

[ebabil]

f-16's hotas systems works like part of your body. f-15e hotas is like trying to solving a rubik's cube

[Njinsa]

That's a very nice compliment to Eagle drivers.

They also have space for keeping some Rubik cubes. A few of them actually :).

[303_Kermit]

Cool I found IT forum 

Datalink blablabla Mudhen blablabla Datalink blabla TF Radar blabla ...

Not a word about flying sensation. Being in a plane. Hearing, feeling....
Best Module I ever experienced was MiG-15bis and P-47. I always recognize good module very simply. Saturday Morning I wake up to drink my first (and sadly last) cup of coffee inside MY plane. Then I fly. It's the true feeling. Dogfight, performance, A2G capabilities... It's all nice to have. But The Jug was ... alive. The plane must be alive.

To be honest - both modules (F-16 and F15E) are great job - no doubt about it. Both are perfect war machines. Almost without weak spots. That's their biggest problem. They are just stone cold machines.
In MiG-15 I always felt that she wants to kill me, P-47 was like a very very big fat tender girl. I can't wait to try F-86F. As for Razbam modules, best plane I ever flew was MiG-19P. She had unique, but strong personality for sure - she was like the Mother in Law, she always does things "her" way. You're always doing wrong. Too slow, too fast, too high, too low, too little or too much.  What personality has F-16? Not even a R2D2...

My regards 
Green Ugly Fellow

Edited October 24, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[Nealius]

On 9/7/2023 at 5:35 PM, Braunn said:

What do you do when a server dont have AWACS?

I don't go in that server because I can't think of a modern conflict where an AWACS capable coalition did not have AWACS.

  

8 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Not a word about flying sensation. Being in a plane. Hearing, feeling....

Agreed. I often go to sim communities to ask about nuances about flying and using the aircraft, but it seems people are so obsessed with the minutiae of systems they never actually fly the modules.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Nealius

[MAXsenna]

What spawn of Satan the P/S 2 connector is. I spend a good three hours trying to get the joystick hooked up. Still working on it.

Because it's not a PS/2 connector, but a 5 pin Mini-DIN.
Have the base between your legs, hold the grip with your best arm/hand. Hold the connector in the grip, (at least with the grip to the right), between your thumb and index on the other hand, and carefully twist the connector until you feel it slide in...
Thrustmaster started this "trend". It's not a bad idea, while they should have gone with older not so mini version.
If you do have some old PS/2 cables, connectors laying around, you can practice.

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Braunn]

13 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

Cool I found IT forum 

Datalink blablabla Mudhen blablabla Datalink blabla TF Radar blabla ...

Not a word about flying sensation. Being in a plane. Hearing, feeling....
Best Module I ever experienced was MiG-15bis and P-47. I always recognize good module very simply. Saturday Morning I wake up to drink my first (and sadly last) cup of coffee inside MY plane. Then I fly. It's the true feeling. Dogfight, performance, A2G capabilities... It's all nice to have. But The Jug was ... alive. The plane must be alive.

To be honest - both modules are great job - no doubt about it. Both are perfect war machines. Almost without weak spots. That's their biggest problem. They are just stone cold machines.
In MiG-15 I always felt that she wants to kill me, P-47 was like a very very big fat tender girl. I can't wait to try F-86F. As for Razbam modules, best plane I ever flew was MiG-19P. She had unique, but strong personality for sure - she was like the Mother of Law, she always does things "her" way. You're always doing wrong. Too slow, too fast, too high, too low, too little or too much.  What personality has F-16? Not even a R2D2...

My regards 
Green Ugly Fellow

 

Hint: Thread title. 

Hint 2: Both planes OP asks for are fly by wire. Well not exactly the F15E but in essence it might as well be, because of the stability augmentation computer flcs in the E. 

But lets talk about biplanes next. Or triplanes! 

 

[Grimleo]

No buttons on the literal stick used in biplanes and triplane Braunn.  

[Grimleo]

8 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Because it's not a PS/2 connector, but a 5 pin Mini-DIN.
Have the base between your legs, hold the grip with your best arm/hand. Hold the connector in the grip, (at least with the grip to the right), between your thumb and index on the other hand, and carefully twist the connector until you feel it slide in...
Thrustmaster started this "trend". It's not a bad idea, while they should have gone with older not so mini version.
If you do have some old PS/2 cables, connectors laying around, you can practice.

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

Nice to finally learn the name of my true nemesis the Mini-DIN.

[MAXsenna]

Nice to finally learn the name of my true nemesis the Mini-DIN.

LOL!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[CybrSlydr]

I don't understand this fascination people have with the F-15 radar.  You're still limited by the AIM-120 range just like the F-16 and F-18.  The "more powerful radar" in the F-15 is essentially pointless.  Oh, you can 'see' farther?  Ok - still gotta wait until that plane is 20mi away before you can fire your AMRAAM, just like the F-16/18.  And with targeting pods, unless you're simulating some conflict that pre-dates them, the targeting pod is vastly superior to the radar for ground attacks as well.

The F-16 is far more feature complete (F-15 doesn't even have JDAMs yet...) and a much more mature platform.  Until the F-15 gets some serious updates and is more feature-complete, then the F-16 is by far the better module.

[Njinsa]

There are people that appreciate work being done on APG-70 for other reasons and certainly not for what you mention. Those people focus on F-15E and it's systems long before this module reached EA. Different people = different views.

Viper is a pile of fun not only because it's feature complete, but because of simplicity and easy of use of simulated systems. People with no nerve/time to track steep learning curve in Mudhen are better served by Viper. 

BTW, if you own Mudhen, you would have learned so far that 35-40nm head-on FL400 shots against co-alt bogeys from Mudhen are extremely common in kill counts.

[Tenkom]

20 hours ago, CybrSlydr said:

I don't understand this fascination people have with the F-15 radar.  You're still limited by the AIM-120 range just like the F-16 and F-18.  The "more powerful radar" in the F-15 is essentially pointless.  Oh, you can 'see' farther?  Ok - still gotta wait until that plane is 20mi away before you can fire your AMRAAM, just like the F-16/18.  And with targeting pods, unless you're simulating some conflict that pre-dates them, the targeting pod is vastly superior to the radar for ground attacks as well.

The F-16 is far more feature complete (F-15 doesn't even have JDAMs yet...) and a much more mature platform.  Until the F-15 gets some serious updates and is more feature-complete, then the F-16 is by far the better module.

This may be true, although I'm not sure it is, for pvp. But I've scored hits from 60-70nm with AIM-120s on AI fighter planes. I did actually pop a player from 50nm. He was flying high and probably not expecting a missile from that range. That's far beyond the range of the F16 and even the hornet's radar range.  And of course being able to detect them from 120nm gives you an undeniable tactical advantage.

[falcon_120]

I don't understand this fascination people have with the F-15 radar.  You're still limited by the AIM-120 range just like the F-16 and F-18.  The "more powerful radar" in the F-15 is essentially pointless.  Oh, you can 'see' farther?  Ok - still gotta wait until that plane is 20mi away before you can fire your AMRAAM, just like the F-16/18.  And with targeting pods, unless you're simulating some conflict that pre-dates them, the targeting pod is vastly superior to the radar for ground attacks as well.
The F-16 is far more feature complete (F-15 doesn't even have JDAMs yet...) and a much more mature platform.  Until the F-15 gets some serious updates and is more feature-complete, then the F-16 is by far the better module.

So if you are sitting in an F15 against a F18/F16 you are basically always starting on top in BVR:

-Fighting in an eagle at angels 40, where the eagle really shines, you need the earlier detection ranges, otherwise you can be dead in the blink of an eye. At those altitudes, you are able to shot very dangerous Amraam shot at 40ish nm, at that ranges the F16 is not able to shot back with your ecm on, you always have the upper hand.
-You can somehow bypass that through datalink if Awacs is avalaible, but if thats not the case, the F16/F18 does not allow you to complete a proper bvr timeline at high altitude, you begin to detect an eagle when you are almost in need of going defensive already.
-Previous two points are specially relevant with a coordinated 2/4 ships when you set a grinder or similar, and you can put F18/F16 defensive while staying out of their missiles range.
-IRL in a ecm degraded environment smaller radars can see things even at shorter ranges, in that cases having a powerful radar is even more relevant to keep BVR actually Beyon visual range.


Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[grant977]

On 9/5/2023 at 7:33 AM, Braunn said:

Riddle me this: In my first love, I always take off on mil power unless the runway is very short, regardless of loadout. 

Hmmm do the wings move as well….?