cannot repoduce and missing track file With LGB's: Auto-Lase not working or changed process?

[LeCuvier]

I have come back to the A-10C II after some time, and in one of my missions I use the GBU-12.
In the profile I have set Auto-Lase to ON, and the Lase Time to 8 s (I also tried with 10s).

When I release the bomb, the Laser is not activated. I have to manually activate the laser with the NWS button on the stick.
I drop this bomb usually from about 12000 ft.

While I can adjust to this situation, it doesn't feel right. So my question:
Is this a bug, or am I missing a step in the process?

[razo+r]

You seem to be missing something. Autolase works as it always had, even in the A-10C.

[Yurgon]

1 hour ago, LeCuvier said:

Is this a bug, or am I missing a step in the process?

I'm not aware of problems with the auto-lase feature.

The usual questions are:

• Which DCS version?
• Can you recreate the problem in a short track and share that track with us?
• Did you select the weapon profile or the weapon station (did the profile read "M/GBU-12")?

[QuiGon]

14 hours ago, LeCuvier said:

I have come back to the A-10C II after some time, and in one of my missions I use the GBU-12.
In the profile I have set Auto-Lase to ON, and the Lase Time to 8 s (I also tried with 10s).

When I release the bomb, the Laser is not activated. I have to manually activate the laser with the NWS button on the stick.
I drop this bomb usually from about 12000 ft.

While I can adjust to this situation, it doesn't feel right. So my question:
Is this a bug, or am I missing a step in the process?

Works fine on my side. You probably missed something (maybe flaps not raised?). Can you post a track file, so we can take a look at what's going on there?

[LeCuvier]

20 hours ago, Yurgon said:

I'm not aware of problems with the auto-lase feature.

The usual questions are:

• Which DCS version?
• Can you recreate the problem in a short track and share that track with us?
• Did you select the weapon profile or the weapon station (did the profile read "M/GBU-12")?

I'm investigating.
DCS version Open Beta MT
I use the default profile which is "GBU-12", which I update for Auto-Lase and Lase Time. Where do you get the "M/GBU-12"?
I do not select the weapon station.

Edit:
I disabled all mods and created a test mission, and the auto-lase worked all the time. So the issue is either in my process or my mods. The ball is in my court.

Thanks guys!

Edited August 25, 2023 by LeCuvier

[Yurgon]

52 minutes ago, LeCuvier said:

Where do you get the "M/GBU-12"?

It's one of the classical mistakes people make in the A-10C. They set up profiles just like all the tutorials show them, then they open the DSMS STAT page and select a weapon station instead of a weapon profile. This selects a "manual" profile and prefixes the selected profile with "M/", while also working off a set of defaults. I've seen it in countless videos, even from pilots who are otherwise quite proficient. For the most part, it may not make much of a difference, but settings like auto-lase can be affected.

Long story short, the best way to select a weapon is to make HUD SOI and use DMS Right Short/DMS Left Short to cycle between weapon profiles (or go through the DSMS PROF page and set the active profile there).

Just wanted to make sure this isn't what was causing your issue.

[ASAP]

Pro tip from a real a-10 pilot. Just don’t use auto lase

[LeCuvier]

On 8/26/2023 at 12:30 AM, ASAP said:

Pro tip from a real a-10 pilot. Just don’t use auto lase

That's what I'm doing now. I activate the laser just after releasing the bomb. This way the bomb always manages to acquire its target. When I used auto-lase, I tended to set the lase time to something like 10s. But when I'm at 16,000 ft, the fall time is about 30s and the laser is is only activated after about 20 s. I suspect that the bomb then struggles to "find" the laser "dot" because it often misses target. With manual laser activation I never miss a target.

[Yurgon]

6 hours ago, LeCuvier said:

But when I'm at 16,000 ft, the fall time is about 30s and the laser is is only activated after about 20 s. I suspect that the bomb then struggles to "find" the laser "dot" because it often misses target. With manual laser activation I never miss a target.

That shouldn't be the case. When properly set up and by default, Paveway-II-LGBs use the Optimal Release Profile (ORP) in the A-10C which drops them right into the "basket" where the seeker can pick up the laser cone.

I've seen recommendations for lasing from between 8 to 15 seconds before calculated impact, and all of these values have consistently worked for me in the past.

If autolase at 10 seconds before impact doesn't work for you, you could simply set it to 20 seconds and that should do the trick.

On the contrary, older generation Paveways can run themselves out of energy when they pick up the laser designation too soon and try to fly toward the designated spot in a straight line with no flight control logic beyond "go straight there". I don't think that's an issue in DCS, and it's more likely to happen for high altitude releases which we can hardly do in the A-10 anyway, but I'd argue there's good reason to lase the target within roughly 8 to 15 seconds before impact, and with 10 to 12 seconds being a very good baseline.

Long story short, manual lasing vs. automatic lasing shouldn't make any difference whatsoever regarding the probability of a direct hit. If this does make a difference, we should explore the reasons, because that could indicate a possible error in DCS.

All that said, personally I never set up autolase profiles and quite often we do buddy-lasing in a split-element-attack or a lead-trail-attack, allowing the shooter to egress right after pickle, which is kind of a big bonus in MP vs. SP.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Yurgon

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Yurgon said:

That shouldn't be the case. When properly set up and by default, Paveway-II-LGBs use the Optimal Release Profile (ORP) in the A-10C which drops them right into the "basket" where the seeker can pick up the laser cone.

I've seen recommendations for lasing from between 8 to 15 seconds before calculated impact, and all of these values have consistently worked for me in the past.

If autolase at 10 seconds before impact doesn't work for you, you could simply set it to 20 seconds and that should do the trick.

On the contrary, older generation Paveways can run themselves out of energy when they pick up the laser designation too soon and try to fly toward the designated spot in a straight line with no flight control logic beyond "go straight there". I don't think that's an issue in DCS, and it's more likely to happen for high altitude releases which we can hardly do in the A-10 anyway, but I'd argue there's good reason to lase the target within roughly 8 to 15 seconds before impact, and with 10 to 12 seconds being a very good baseline.

Long story short, manual lasing vs. automatic lasing shouldn't make any difference whatsoever regarding the probability of a direct hit. If this does make a difference, we should explore the reasons, because that could indicate a possible error in DCS.

All that said, personally I never set up autolase profiles and quite often we do buddy-lasing in a split-element-attack or a lead-trail-attack, allowing the shooter to egress right after pickle, which is kind of a big bonus in MP vs. SP.

 

For the sake of being pedantic, I'd suspect the older LGB's would have more problems with early lasing from low altitudes.  From high altitudes, it's gaining energy so quickly by the end that it can afford to do dumb aerodynamic things and still make it to the target.  I think the later Paveway III's with their smarter guidance were specifically for low altitude LGB profiles

[Yurgon]

15 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

For the sake of being pedantic, I'd suspect the older LGB's would have more problems with early lasing from low altitudes.

That's an interesting thought, and it actually sounds quite plausible. 

On the other hand, from a low altitude release the weapon would carry the kinetic energy it was given by the launch platform, and an optimal release profile should pretty much allow it to reach the target with this energy. With a short bomb fall time from a low altitude drop, I assume there's a chance the bomb will run itself out of energy before reaching the target - then again, low altitude LGB releases aren't usually recommended anyway.

I have a much easier time imagining a high altitude release where the bomb runs out of energy because its flight path deviates too much from a ballistic path. But from a level release, the seeker wouldn't even see the designation until the bomb is already quite a bit nose down on its ballistic path - so maybe the issue is indeed more manifest in a low altitude level release, where the seeker can pick up the designation right away. So even with a relatively small difference between a ballistic flight path and a direct flight path, this might be enough to run the bomb into the ground short of the target.

I'm now more confused than ever. 

[ASAP]

Another thing to try is change the profile from optimum (OPT) to balistic release point (BAL). That way even if the bomb never sees the laser and doesn’t guide it’s still going to fall pretty close to your spi assuming you had your symbology lined up correctly at release. 

delay vs continuous lase can be debated til judgment day and I’d argue that under most conditions they probably aren’t tremendously different. For what it’s worth I turn the laser on a few seconds prior to pickle every time and I have never had issues with bombs missing. But also, GBU-12s suck use 54s and 38s  they are way better in almost all situations  

What I would say is that auto lase and just trusting your system to do everything is probably not as foolproof as just having good habit patterns and manually clicking the laser on yourself. There are so many posts here about issues with auto lase not doing what people expect or masking issues etc…  that’s all of course just my preference and habits.  it’s a video game, play it the way you want  as long as you’re having fun, you’re doing it right.

 

 

[LeCuvier]

I will stick with manual laser activation. With auto-lase I've had quite a few misses, and I'm not going to try and find out why. Manual lase works all the time for me.

[QuiGon]

I'm pretty much always using autolase (usually with a 11 sec timer). Never had any issues with it.