Strike Eagle's Dogfighting Performance?

[mytai01]

I've been testing the "turn&burn" capabilities of the DCS Strike Eagle, and I'm surprised by it's lack of flight performance compared to the DCS:F-15C. I never thought an F-14 could easily get on and stay on its tail...

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

I guess the CFTs and avionics equipment take their toll on performance due to extra weight and drag.
Anyway I don´t even see the F-15C as a dogfighter, but a BVR beast.

[strikeeagle]

On one of my rides in the backseat, I slammed it in burner and got it up to 8g’s at corner speed.  The airspeed bled off very quickly.  It’s NOT a phone booth airplane at all.  BVR and maybe a quick fight w/certain opponents.  That’s it.

[SloppyDog]

Dogfighting? Where? Where? If the Mudhen sees one, it will accelerate its way away from dogfights, does not like them. 

In a more serious note, in the companion book to the F-15E, "Be Afraid of the Dark" there're portions where the pilots testing the F-15E talk about its dogfighting capabilities:

Page 23-24:

"When we flew the air-to-air portion of the tests in a VHN condition it did not
perform like the C model – it couldn’t, it was just too
heavy. Once down to a half fuel load though, it would
start to fly like a C or D model. However, some of the
regimes we flew in surprised us. The CFTs created an
interesting drag characteristic which meant that we
could, at low speeds, pull the nose of the aircraft up
to even higher Angles of Attack than you could in a C
model. In a dogfight we could out-nose position the
opponent."

Page 94:

"Light grey aircrew who moved to the F-15E
remarked that the two aircraft did handle similarly,
although the additional basic weight and parasitic
drag from the CFTs meant that the F-15E’s turn rate
was inferior (it lost a few degrees per second turn rate
over the C model) and that it bled speed more rapidly
in the turn. Unsurprisingly, the contingency plan in
the E model world was never to get into a rolling
dogfight in the first place. In most senses this was not
an unrealistic end game. There would be few times
when the F-15E would ever go into battle without an
array of support who would provide either situational
awareness input (such as AWACS) or direct support
(such as a dedicated escort or sweep fighter package)
to keep a superior adversary at arm’s length."

 

And then there's the analysis of the "dogfight specialist"Growling Sidewinder showing that, in the end, it cannot dogfight. It simply wasn't made for it. But it is really BVR monster:

 

[Tenkom]

6 hours ago, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

I guess the CFTs and avionics equipment take their toll on performance due to extra weight and drag.
Anyway I don´t even see the F-15C as a dogfighter, but a BVR beast.

The F15C is a dogfighting beast. I almost never play it but I tried against an AI recently and it dominates. It might be even better than the viper. I had just flown the viper against the same AI opponent.

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

7 hours ago, Tenkom said:

The F15C is a dogfighting beast. I almost never play it but I tried against an AI recently and it dominates. It might be even better than the viper. I had just flown the viper against the same AI opponent.

I don´t think we could compare FC3 flight models with hi-fi like Viper, Tomcat or Strike Eagle, anyway my comment applies for real life.

[bfr]

It's OK with low fuel but with it being a bit draggy then if you don't get the job done in the first few turns you're going to find yourself in a bit of a tail-chasing stalemate at best. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by bfr

[mytai01]

18 hours ago, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

Anyway I don´t even see the F-15C as a dogfighter, but a BVR beast.

The F-15 was designed with dogfighting and BVR in mind. They wanted it to be a monster across the whole spectrum of air-to-air combat. That's why it has big wings, powerful engines, a high bubble canopy, and an internal gun.  

Edited August 31, 2023 by mytai01

[jubuttib]

17 hours ago, Tenkom said:

The F15C is a dogfighting beast. I almost never play it but I tried against an AI recently and it dominates. It might be even better than the viper. I had just flown the viper against the same AI opponent.

Has been interesting looking at this and seeing how at least based on that testing the F-16C struggles in many areas against almost all of the competition. It's only a clear winner in climb performance (it can indeed haul ass decently well), but sustained turn rates aren't the greatest and instantaneous rates are quite poor, and the sustained radius is one of the largest.

Not saying anything concrete about the actual performance in a dogfight (especially against AI), I don't really do dogfighting myself, but I've been seeing a fair few people complain about how poor the F-16C is in a dogfight against human opponents, and seeing those performance figures does lend credence to those claims.

Would be interesting to see a more updated study, since I think they've fiddled with the F-16C since that was made.

[Tenkom]

5 hours ago, jubuttib said:

Has been interesting looking at this and seeing how at least based on that testing the F-16C struggles in many areas against almost all of the competition. It's only a clear winner in climb performance (it can indeed haul ass decently well), but sustained turn rates aren't the greatest and instantaneous rates are quite poor, and the sustained radius is one of the largest.

Not saying anything concrete about the actual performance in a dogfight (especially against AI), I don't really do dogfighting myself, but I've been seeing a fair few people complain about how poor the F-16C is in a dogfight against human opponents, and seeing those performance figures does lend credence to those claims.

Would be interesting to see a more updated study, since I think they've fiddled with the F-16C since that was made.

I have almost zero experience with fighting human opponents. But I've done a lot of dogfights against AI and the Viper is the best except maybe the F15C. Hornet is good also but it's easy to end up slow inside the enemy turn circle while in the viper I just do lag pursuit and it just reels them in.

[Nealius]

Why are people so surprised a ground attack/strike platform peforms worse than a dedicated air superiority fighter in an air superiority role?

[Tenkom]

11 hours ago, Nealius said:

Why are people so surprised a ground attack/strike platform peforms worse than a dedicated air superiority fighter in an air superiority role?

who are you talking about?

[Jackjack171]

22 hours ago, Tenkom said:

who are you talking about?

I think everyone in the chat dude, and he's right! Anyone that knows anything about the Strike Eagle and its origins, as well as the F-15C, knows this as well!

[Tenkom]

5 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

I think everyone in the chat dude, and he's right! Anyone that knows anything about the Strike Eagle and its origins, as well as the F-15C, knows this as well!

No one has expressed any surprise that it is worse. Some seem surprised at HOW much worse it is. Which I can understand since the F15C is one of the best dogfighters in the game and the mudhen is one of the worst(among it's peers). But I am not saying that this is unrealistic or that it should be changed. I've heard pilots say it is not good at dogfighting and I have faith that Razbam know what they are about.

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, Tenkom said:

No one has expressed any surprise that it is worse.

The first post literally says:

On 8/31/2023 at 9:11 AM, mytai01 said:

I've been testing the "turn&burn" capabilities of the DCS Strike Eagle, and I'm surprised by it's lack of flight performance compared to the DCS:F-15C. I never thought an F-14 could easily get on and stay on its tail...

Similar comments have been on the Razbam Discord rather frequently since the Mudhen's release, particularly in regards to requests/comments about having an option to remove the CFTs. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Nealius

[silverdevil]

in case anyone is interested.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/for-the-first-time-f-15e-strike-eagle-fighter-bombers-flown-by-raytheon-trophy-winners-will-take-part-in-william-tell-competition/

[GGTharos]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:00 AM, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

I don´t think we could compare FC3 flight models with hi-fi like Viper, Tomcat or Strike Eagle, anyway my comment applies for real life.

Yes we can, because they're on the same level.  This myth that FC3 FMs are somehow worse needs to die - FC3 FMs were brought well up to snuff years ago.

Edited September 3, 2023 by GGTharos

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

On 9/3/2023 at 6:11 PM, GGTharos said:

Yes we can, because they're on the same level.  This myth that FC3 FMs are somehow worse needs to die - FC3 FMs were brought well up to snuff years ago.

 

Happy to be corrected, back in the day I had great fun with the Fulcrum.

[DerVulf]

I've been testing her as well in a TOP GUN type setting. (A-4's and F-5's all set to ace and armed with P5's)

Start out with %61 internal fuel, remove the LANTIRN pods and centerline pylon. Take 2 wing tanks. Drop the tanks at the merge.

Seems to perform pretty well in that configuration. Still cant quite hang with a C model but getting closer.

Havn't tested against a real 4Gen fighter, but having no problem staying on the tail of the F-5's.

Now if we could get the maintenance guys to remove those CFT's........