need contrary evidence Speed brake / air brake

[Luisflo]

Hi everyone!,

Surely some other user has already asked about the speed brake issue in this aircraft. I would like to know if the team in charge of the development of the flight models are going to make the speed brake of the F-18 will work like the real one and the aircraft will have a real deceleration, and not the one it has right now, which is quite poor, for not to say embarrassing.

Having consulted with several pilots of the real aircraft of the 12th wing in Spain, what they can see in our simulator compared to their plane has nothing to do with it.

Please implement a real speed brake in the final version.

Thank you so much.

 

[razo+r]

Just simply saying "It's wrong" won't make people believe you. 

Do you have a bit more concrete evidence? Perhaps a video, maybe some numbers or something?

[Luisflo]

First of all, sorry, but I don't need people to believe me.

The second thing, as I write in the post, I have consulted active F-18 pilots from a combat wing in my country. They have tried DCS. I have been able to see in the real simulator of the real aircraft, what I was talking about a few days ago, in Torrejón.

Apart from all this, if you have flown in DCS F/A-18C, you will have seen how ineffective the airbrake is when you want to lose speed in this simulation. That's all. Any number needed, any video or anything else.

Do you want numbers?. Let´s go with it.

With the airbrake, the F/A-18 takes 26 seconds to go from 550 kts to 300 kts aprox., while without airbrake it takes 52 seconds aprox.

This is a very poor value for a high-performance aircraft like the F-18.

let´s go with an equation: v = U - at

- V is final velocity

- U initial velocity

- a is acceleration

- t is time      

If you pass knots to m/s and solving for a (in positive values although it is deceleration):

- With airbrake a = (283 -154)/26 ; a = 5 m/s2

- With just Idle a = (283 - 154)/52 ; a = 2.5 m/s2

Let's look at the g's you get when decelerating:

With airbrake this only represents 5/9.81 = 0.5 g's of deceleration. Your electric scooter, bike and your car brakes quite more!

 

I have simply asked that it could be fixed because it is not even close to accurate.

Finally, if you knew anything about flight simulators you would know that the data used in "our simulators" are those that the manufacturer provides in the flight manuals. Theoretical, all of them, is the mathematical model of flight of the aircraft.

A "good" simulator, one of those used by airlines and combat aviation simulators in the Air force Units (RW and FW) take their numbers from the parameters obtained in test flights in the different flight envelopes; is the famous "data package". These numbers are usually "secret" and worth a lot of money. I know what I´m talking about. And I´m not going to explain my personal experience in real life and my experience in flight simulator (since Spectrum 16k era). Do you want to try a really good flight model?, try the Challenger 650 from Hot Start for X-plane. The most accurate in the market.

I'll give you another example of it: Formula 1. The numbers obtained in the wind tunnel need a correlation on the track and it is not always correct, tell it to Ferrari several years ago. The same thing happens here.

This is a wishlist post, not a complaint.

Kind regards

Edited October 11, 2023 by Luisflo
format unvalid

[Hiob]

12 minutes ago, Luisflo said:

First of all, sorry, but I don't need people to believe me.

Well first, actually - since you want people to act on your claims - you do.

Second, you are new around here obviously and do not know that claims without evidence are meaningless (hearsay, trust me bro and I know someone is no evidence).

[Luisflo]

hace 5 minutos, Hiob dijo:

Well first, actually - since you want people to act on your claims - you do.

Second, you are new around here obviously and do not know that claims without evidence are meaningless (hearsay, trust me bro and I know someone is no evidence).

Well, I don't claim anything, I just write on a wishlist in relation to something that is obvious and will make this module more realistic. And I write about the f/A-18C because I´m close to it, just as I will be to the Eurofighter when the module comes out. Wish list is not equal to claim, at least in my native language, nor is it equal to demand or request. Maybe I'm wrong and it's the same thing.

And just because I don't write in the forum doesn't mean I'm new. I have been officially in DCS since 2011, I am not a teenager, maybe you believe me without evidence. With Flanker and LOMAC and all the others from Eagle D long before. As Razo+r requested, I have put simple numbers, is it enough?.

I agree with you on one thing, knowing someone telling something is not proof of anything. There are people who say that the earth is flat, and provide a lot of "evidence" and yet you don't believe them, do you, "bro"?

[razo+r]

The "evidence" of those group of people can be proven wrong, hence why not everyone believes them.

What would be interesting to see is, how long the aircraft takes to slow down in real life. You have been into a real life sim, or at least saw one. How long did it take for that aircraft to slow down from 550 Kts to 300? This way we could directly compare the performance difference in DCS vs real life / real life simulator. That would be of more value than doing some "random" calculations.

Edited October 11, 2023 by razo+r

[Cab]

1 hour ago, Luisflo said:

 

Recommended reading,

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4865.How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Luisflo said:

With airbrake this only represents 5/9.81 = 0.5 g's of deceleration. Your electric scooter, bike and your car brakes quite more!

comparing an airbrake system with a ground-contact one seems wrong to me … place your scooter, bike, or car on an icy surface and see if it can brake harder than 0.5 G  

[Luisflo]

hace 48 minutos, razo+r dijo:

The "evidence" of those group of people can be proven wrong, hence why not everyone believes them.

What would be interesting to see is, how long the aircraft takes to slow down in real life. You have been into a real life sim, or at least saw one. How long did it take for that aircraft to slow down from 550 Kts to 300? This way we could directly compare the performance difference in DCS vs real life / real life simulator. That would be of more value than doing some "random" calculations.

 

Things like this are why I don't comment on internet forums. It doesn't matter if they are sports, plumbers or theological.

Have you read what I have written about the fact that I have personally been in the Spanish Air Force F/A-18 simulator manufactured by INDRA from the Torrejón Air Base?, Have you read that the pilots themselves consider that there is a brutal difference between what they test in DCS and the real aircraft? In the real aircraft, when they deploy the airbrake they move forward drastically and remain stopped by the harnesses to avoid eating the UFC, this is not 0.5g´s like the DCS sim. We are talking about 4 g´s in real life. I am not a fighter pilot and in civil aviation there are no airbrake that work like those on a fighter. I simply repeat THEIR experience in real flight and what I have seen on the real simulator screen. Those calculations that I have put are from DCS, with a chrono in the right hand and the warthog throttle in the left, I have not invented them. You can keep in mind that the deletion of our simulator is only 0.5g! In the real plane I can't tell you how long it takes, because I'm not a Hornet pilot, it's that simple. Are you Hornet pilot to question everything I've said?

From my part it is enough. If Eagle Dynamics wants to do the relevant checks and correct what is proposed, perfect. If not, nothing happens either. My intention was to provide real experience to improve what we have, writing on a wish list that looks like the inquisition, so we can get closer to real flight models. Nothing more than that.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Luisflo

[Hiob]

49 minutes ago, Luisflo said:

Well, I don't claim anything, I just write on a wishlist in relation to something that is obvious and will make this module more realistic. And I write about the f/A-18C because I´m close to it, just as I will be to the Eurofighter when the module comes out. Wish list is not equal to claim, at least in my native language, nor is it equal to demand or request. Maybe I'm wrong and it's the same thing.

And just because I don't write in the forum doesn't mean I'm new. I have been officially in DCS since 2011, I am not a teenager, maybe you believe me without evidence. With Flanker and LOMAC and all the others from Eagle D long before. As Razo+r requested, I have put simple numbers, is it enough?.

I agree with you on one thing, knowing someone telling something is not proof of anything. There are people who say that the earth is flat, and provide a lot of "evidence" and yet you don't believe them, do you, "bro"?

Well, if you aren’t new (just reading is totally valid) than you really should know that the way you presented your „wish“ is doomed to fail. Claims like this are plenty around here (which you know of course as a long term reader) and the answer from the developers is always the same: „Do you have publicly available proof that your claims are valid“…..which you obviously know, since…….well, whatever.

[Luisflo]

hace 10 minutos, Rudel_chw dijo:

comparing an airbrake system with a ground-contact one seems wrong to me … place your scooter, bike, or car on an icy surface and see if it can brake harder than 0.5 G  

It was just an example. JUST an example. A Formula 1 gives you 5g´s in braking.

hace 28 minutos, Cab dijo:

Recommended reading,

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4865.How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

...............my God. No comments needed

[Luisflo]

hace 4 minutos, Hiob dijo:

Well, if you aren’t new (just reading is totally valid) than you really should know that the way you presented your „wish“ is doomed to fail. Claims like this are plenty around here (which you know of course as a long term reader) and the answer from the developers is always the same: „Do you have publicly available proof that your claims are valid“…..which you obviously know, since…….well, whatever.

Well, let them do their job, and let them to tell me that.

[Cab]

36 minutes ago, Luisflo said:

...............my God. No comments needed

Too subtle?

[MAXsenna]

@Luisflo
A wise man once said to me, "If someone misunderstand you, it's probably your own fault".
A wish is usually a humble request. Nothing you have written is humble, nor comes with any proof. You even demand people to just believe you, because you've talked to pilots and have seen a "real simulator", whatever that is. It seems to me that this is what makes other users comment and react to. So I found @Cab 's comment quite spot on, even funny. Apologies!
Now, things gets lost in translation daily here, it is an international forum after all.
Always be prepared!
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Phantom711]

Well....I think this got a little out of hand.

I think the original post was reasonably polite but then the "I don`t need people to believe me..." came along a little arrogant.

 

Now in his defense, the OP stated his sources and some things are simply hard to prove with publicly available hard facts. Especially since this is just the "wish list" and not even a bug report, I would have just consideered it as a "bump" so that ED could recheck the speedbrake behaviour with their SMEs. The speedbrake as it is right now must be based on some sort of data. Otherwise we could just ask the other way around: Where is the evidence, that the current behaviour is correct? (I know, I know...ED does not have to prove that their product is correct...I understand that).

 

As for the actual topic: I agree, 26sec to decelerate from 550-300 seems looooong....

[Luisflo]

hace 20 horas, Cab dijo:

Too subtle?

Obviously, the jester on duty couldn't be missing. First of all, try to write every single letter, then talk about subtitles. You don't know me at all, I don't think you're familiar with me. I'm sure that if you couldn't hide in anonymity, you would be more careful with your jokes. And I'm already being too polite to you.

Thank you for sympathy

[Luisflo]

hace 19 horas, Phantom711 dijo:

Well....I think this got a little out of hand.

I think the original post was reasonably polite but then the "I don`t need people to believe me..." came along a little arrogant.

 

Now in his defense, the OP stated his sources and some things are simply hard to prove with publicly available hard facts. Especially since this is just the "wish list" and not even a bug report, I would have just consideered it as a "bump" so that ED could recheck the speedbrake behaviour with their SMEs. The speedbrake as it is right now must be based on some sort of data. Otherwise we could just ask the other way around: Where is the evidence, that the current behaviour is correct? (I know, I know...ED does not have to prove that their product is correct...I understand that).

 

As for the actual topic: I agree, 26sec to decelerate from 550-300 seems looooong....

Wise words, "Well....I think this got a little out of hand."

"I don't need people to believe me" is the answer to an arrogant "Just simply saying "It's wrong" won't make people believe you." Action - reaction.

I have tried from the beginning to make a contribution, based on the experience, mine and those who truly pilot the aircraft, but it is clear that there are people who prefer to question everything and hammer what they understand as "and what will this stupid guy know?" ". I´m sure that they all are trully combat pilots with license to fly.

From my part, I can only comment that we are extremely lucky to have dozens of "Petes Mitchells" who make the DCS forum an unparalleled wonder. I would like to know if any of those who usually comment on forum posts and trample on others have even gotten into the cockpit of a Cessna 152 (to say an easy one) and have moved the controls on the ground. I get the impression that they are the typical ones who go to air festivals to take photos and are knowledgeable. By the way, I have a colleague working with me in JSOC who works like this, so I know what I'm talking about. He spends the day asking me details (because I do have experience flying in some aircraft) which he then makes his own, and after a while he forgets and tells me again as if he were the source and had lived it.

No problem. We are on the network. This is seen every day in every forum, social network and in any system based on anonymity in which many hide. It is the main reason why I prefer not to comment in forums and social networks. It is the problem of written language, you never know the tone used by the person who is exposing it.

Thanks to this enriching experience, I will continue to live up to one of our mottos: "Work hard in silence, let success make the noise".

Happy day to everyone, bye.

[BIGNEWY]

Ok this thread has ran its course, if anyone has any evidence please PM me

thank you