reported Spotting dot bugs in VR

[falcon_120]

@YoYo@falcon_120What "improved spotting dots" setting do you use?

So i was surprised to see i have it on "ON" since the update. I wpuñd swear i had it on OFF before.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Why485]

Anecdotally, it does seem like the VR specific issues the dots had were addressed, and appear to roughly match how they work in 2D. I was flying with a friend who plays in VR (Quest 3) last night and we were comparing what we could say and his visibility seemed to be similar to mine (2D, 1440p), whereas before he was able to spot what he called "flying blocks" from twice the range that I could see anything.

Edited July 12, 2024 by Why485

[YoYo]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

@YoYo@falcon_120What "improved spotting dots" setting do you use?

Default.

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Alves_o_Craque said:

The only difference I noticed is that with it OFF you can see the dot at like 30nm

If nothing has changed, the “Off” setting reverts the dots to the 2.8 version where these were indeed visible at great distances. From the reports above it seems like the setting is moving in the right direction. If so it’s time to get rid of version 2.8. 

[Alves_o_Craque]

On the other hand with the dot gone it's now much easier to VID at stupid ranges with spyglass zoom like it used to be before the dots were intoduced.

Great for 3rd partying on ECW furballs

[josef]

After upgrading to theVer 2.9.6.57650 of the DCS, I noticed that in VR mode, the ability to visually see the aircraft is greatly reduced, and I can barely see the aircraft at close range. It's understandable that you can't see the plane clearly on a 2D screen, but intentionally adjusting the 3D mode to be almost as good as 2D is not realistic.Please take care to fix this in the next version.thanks

[BIGNEWY]

this has been reported to the team and we are looking at tweaks 

thank you 

[YoYo]

From Today's changelog:

Edited July 22, 2024 by YoYo

[KoN]

58 minutes ago, YoYo said:

From Today's changelog:

 

Is this with DOTs on or off . I've just checked and I've been flying with them on . And I cant see <profanity>e in VR .

Turned dots off will test . 

Edited July 22, 2024 by KoN

[YoYo]

50 minutes ago, KoN said:

Is this with DOTs on or off . I've just checked and I've been flying with them on .

"On" is the best and most wanted version. For me its perfect now (2.9.6.).I checked my previous missions and the default setting, i.e. ON, is very good now. 

I see that again I have Easy com turned on, so Todays patch didnt solved this? Have to check again why.

Edited July 22, 2024 by YoYo

[KoN]

28 minutes ago, YoYo said:

"On" is the best and most wanted version. For me its perfect now (2.9.6.).I checked my previous missions and the default setting, i.e. ON, is very good now. 

I see that again I have Easy com turned on, so Todays patch didnt solved this? Have to check again why.

 

You can see air targets in VR . ???  I can hear them , but I don't see them ,  I see no black dot 

Edited July 22, 2024 by KoN

[YoYo]

8 hours ago, josef said:

After upgrading to theVer 2.9.6.57650 of the DCS, I noticed that in VR mode, the ability to visually see the aircraft is greatly reduced, and I can barely see the aircraft at close range. It's understandable that you can't see the plane clearly on a 2D screen, but intentionally adjusting the 3D mode to be almost as good as 2D is not realistic.Please take care to fix this in the next version.thanks

No any issue, its great now. The 2.9.6. improved it. Also, you have partially fake and kind of middle system - just use off option if you like.

8 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

this has been reported to the team and we are looking at tweaks 

thank you 

Please keep those settings, its a lot better now, than before with this fake box dot.

 

Edited July 22, 2024 by YoYo

[Panzerlang]

I see no dots, just a very tiny plane at max distances (exactly how I think such things would appear in real life). Any further and I wouldn't expect to be able to see a real one. In my opinion the viewing experience is pretty much full-real.

Pimax Crystal.

[YoYo]

6 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

I see no dots, just a very tiny plane at max distances (exactly how I think such things would appear in real life). Any further and I wouldn't expect to be able to see a real one. In my opinion the viewing experience is pretty much full-real.

Pimax Crystal.

Correct. Moreover, there are even "about dot" statements from pilots in this topic, the contact should be visible at a distance of a few or a dozen or so miles. In the case of a small plane, such as the F-16, large ones are a different story, there may even be several dozen. Now you can even see the silhouette. I think it's very ok now. This requires even more testing, but I'm happy with what we have. Anyway, let's not make another topic here, they are about the same thing, so I don't know why another one. @BIGNEWY Maybe it's worth connect them?

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged. 

Please keep the feedback coming

thank you 

[draconus]

16 hours ago, josef said:

After upgrading to theVer 2.9.6.57650 of the DCS, I noticed that in VR mode, the ability to visually see the aircraft is greatly reduced, and I can barely see the aircraft at close range. It's understandable that you can't see the plane clearly on a 2D screen, but intentionally adjusting the 3D mode to be almost as good as 2D is not realistic.

It's best to be specific when making statements like that: what range, aircraft, attitude, wheather, time of day, direction, background (against clear sky?), fov, display type, resolution, AA mode? The goal is to get to as close as possible to realistic visibility ranges, at least for VR (in this thread), since we have fixed natural fov in the headsets.

Last time I made VR aircraft visibility tests in 2.9.5 they were fine with "improved spotting dots: off" but had way unrealistic spotting range, while "on" option would attack me with black blobs, a bit reduced max distance but still far unrealistic. I'm about to test it again in 2.9.6.

[YoYo]

22 minutes ago, draconus said:

It's best to be specific when making statements like that: what range, aircraft, attitude, wheather, time of day, direction, background (against clear sky?), fov, display type, resolution, AA mode? The goal is to get to as close as possible to realistic visibility ranges, at least for VR (in this thread), since we have fixed natural fov in the headsets.

Last time I made VR aircraft visibility tests in 2.9.5 they were fine with "improved spotting dots: off" but had way unrealistic spotting range, while "on" option would attack me with black blobs, a bit reduced max distance but still far unrealistic. I'm about to test it again in 2.9.6.

Right. It's also worth adding that if someone uses DLSS / DLAA, they will generally never be satisfied, especially in VR. If you want to have a sharp "dot", you should use MSAA or even without it, but with high resolution in the goggles. I use MSAA=2x myself and Im very satisfied with the current version in 2.9.6 finally.

[WipeUout]

VR vs Pancake and who as an advantage in spotting targets.

Pancake use a monitor that has a very good resolution, in most cases over 50 PPD.  If you consider that you have a 4k 32'' monitor about 60 cm from your eyes, it would cover about 67 degree of your horitonzal filed of view resulting in a 57 PPD angular resolution. 

My HMD has a 25 PPD which is less than half of a monitor. 

To simplify the issue:

If we consider a target at a distance that is showing as one pixel in size on the monitor screen, it would need to be at least two pixels in size in the HMD in order to see it. 

This means that for me (VR user) to be able to see a target at a similar distance as a pancake simmer, I need to have twice the size target to nullify the monitor user advantage.

Hense, the case of having adjustable dot size for taking into account resolution.  Not all HMD have the same angular resolution and dot size need to be different to account for this.

I think that prior to 2.9.6, VR had dots way too big and now it seems smaller but more fair.  It is important though to keep in mind that resolution of VR HMDs varies a lot and there need to be different dot sizes, maybe set by DCS automatically?

[draconus]

11 minutes ago, WipeUout said:

If we consider a target at a distance that is showing as one pixel in size on the monitor screen, it would need to be at least two pixels in size in the HMD in order to see it. 

Wrong. Since the apparent size of the pixel is bigger in VR headset the target should still be 1 pixel but a fainter one and will still have similar visibility.

[WipeUout]

37 minutes ago, draconus said:

Wrong. Since the apparent size of the pixel is bigger in VR headset the target should still be 1 pixel but a fainter one and will still have similar visibility.

Yes you are right, it is the other way around.  Still, we need some sort of adjustement to ensure everyone see target at similar distances to ensure fairness, and it should be automatic to avoid tempering.

[josef]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

It's best to be specific when making statements like that: what range, aircraft, attitude, wheather, time of day, direction, background (against clear sky?), fov, display type, resolution, AA mode? The goal is to get to as close as possible to realistic visibility ranges, at least for VR (in this thread), since we have fixed natural fov in the headsets.

Last time I made VR aircraft visibility tests in 2.9.5 they were fine with "improved spotting dots: off" but had way unrealistic spotting range, while "on" option would attack me with black blobs, a bit reduced max distance but still far unrealistic. I'm about to test it again in 2.9.6.

The state of the flight is changing all the time, so how is it possible to name so many parameters at once as you asked.
I haven't seen anyone quote that many parameters in previous discussions.
I can only say that compared to the older version, the current version can't even see the flight status of a fighter on a clear day when they are close to a few nautical miles. That must be a lot different from the real thing. The previous simulation was a bit more realistic.

I use a Pimax Crystal, and there are definitely no problems with the hardware.

 

Edited July 23, 2024 by josef

[draconus]

20 minutes ago, josef said:

I can only say that compared to the older version, the current version can't even see the flight status of a fighter on a clear day when they are close to a few nautical miles.

You mean flight status as target attitude?

[josef]

In reality, as long as the weather is OK, when you are a few nautical miles away, you can see where the fighters are heading, whether they are higher or lower than you, and you can tell the model.
In the current version the point is too small. You can hear the engines roaring, but it's hard to find the airplane. Whereas in the previous version, it was much easier to see the plane in VR mode. Did I make myself clear?

13 minutes ago, draconus said:

You mean flight status as target attitude?

 

[draconus]

8 minutes ago, josef said:

Did I make myself clear?

Yes, fair enough.

[YoYo]

8 minutes ago, josef said:

In reality, as long as the weather is OK, when you are a few nautical miles away, you can see where the fighters are heading, whether they are higher or lower than you, and you can tell the model.
In the current version the point is too small. You can hear the engines roaring, but it's hard to find the airplane. Whereas in the previous version, it was much easier to see the plane in VR mode. Did I make myself clear?

 

Show your DCS graphics settings and VR tab from DCS too.