Spotting dot bugs in VR

[Bounti30]

At the same level as ''Dedicated server performance'' i think the new spotting must be a priority.

I am aware of the work accomplished and I thank ED.

But until a solution is found I remain in version 2.8.

[YoYo]

No any changes after Today's patch (DCS Open Beta 2.9.1.48111)  .

[huo33322]

Noticed that have a new option to close new dots,but it still not work 

[KoN]

Over the weeks of testing it's becoming frustrating. Especially online in competitive servers . And especially guns only combat . However I still believe this is the right step for ED . 

I just can't go back to flat screen after being blown away by DCS in VR. 

[Shmal]

ED had added new option in settings to return visibility of dots like it was 2.8

It works perfectly! But need to remove the imgui.ini in the Saved Games that we added  earlier to avoid conflict 

[Why485]

Also FYI, after changing the option you need to restart DCS. It doesn't apply immediately.

[KoN]

On 11/17/2023 at 5:06 PM, Shmal said:

ED had added new option in settings to return visibility of dots like it was 2.8

It works perfectly! But need to remove the imgui.ini in the Saved Games that we added  earlier to avoid conflict 

Thanks going to try this 

[YoYo]

It was at the last news too, however its a WIP still (I hope!) and there was no mention of deleting anything, so it's not really an official solution.

Maybe they have something else in mind but it's not finished:

Quote

Targeting Spotting

Development Progress

In the latest DCS Open Beta update, we added a new target spotting algorithm that allows the rendering of objects to not be affected by view zoom level and have a maximum rendering distance based on the object size. Some community members have responded positively to these changes; however, we have also received some critical feedback, especially from VR users. In the most recent DCS 2.9 Open Beta update, we will be adding a settings toggle to switch this algorithm ON or OFF. If set to OFF, the rendering is reverted to the previous method. We continue to improve this feature for VR, and we would like to extend our thanks for your feedback.

 

[Rex854Warrior]

Using quad views foveated renderring (Pimax Crystal, Pimax 8KX with a Droolon Pi 1 eye tracker, Varjo Aero etc.) , the spotting dots do not appear within the region that is "high resolution". They do however appear in the peripheral region so basically you look away, see the dots, then look towards them, they disappear.

This is the layer (developped by @mbucchia) that is required for headsets others then the Varjo Aero which supports it within Varjo Base, it also has documentation regarding how this technique works :

https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated

https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated/wiki/What-is-Quad-Views-rendering%3F

Edited November 22, 2023 by Rex854Warrior

[TAIPAN_]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:18 AM, Rex854Warrior said:

Using quad views foveated renderring (Pimax Crystal, Pimax 8KX with a Droolon Pi 1 eye tracker, Varjo Aero etc.) , the spotting dots do not appear within the region that is "high resolution". They do however appear in the peripheral region so basically you look away, see the dots, then look towards them, they disappear.

This is the layer (developped by @mbucchia) that is required for headsets others then the Varjo Aero which supports it within Varjo Base, it also has documentation regarding how this technique works :

https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated

https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated/wiki/What-is-Quad-Views-rendering%3F

 

I think they are there but they are so small like 1 or 2 pixels.

This is why I worry when people with lower resolution say the dots are too big, if ED reduces the size then people with new 2023+ high res headsets won't be able to see them at all. Thankfully the personal setting to disable in options is a solution for them. 

For now to see the dot at all with QuadViews I have to do two things - make sure the focus area is just 100% SS not something very tight like some people run 200%

Also disable DLSS or DLAA. MSAA is kind of ok. After doing these two the dots are visible from about 5nm, although very small it's better than nothing. 

[KoN]

On 11/23/2023 at 11:46 PM, TAIPAN_ said:

I think they are there but they are so small like 1 or 2 pixels.

This is why I worry when people with lower resolution say the dots are too big, if ED reduces the size then people with new 2023+ high res headsets won't be able to see them at all. Thankfully the personal setting to disable in options is a solution for them. 

For now to see the dot at all with QuadViews I have to do two things - make sure the focus area is just 100% SS not something very tight like some people run 200%

Also disable DLSS or DLAA. MSAA is kind of ok. After doing these two the dots are visible from about 5nm, although very small it's better than nothing. 

Hate to say it but other flight sims don't have a spotting problem. 

Some did have many years ago but they rectified it .

And rectified it fast . Even today you can still play these sims on your 4k monitor and still see targets . Even VR works.

What I'm saying here is DCS needs to find that technology that these other old sims use . As well as new sims .

With all the lighting effects we have in dcs surely they can come up with something. 

 

[TAIPAN_]

9 hours ago, KoN said:

Hate to say it but other flight sims don't have a spotting problem. 

Some did have many years ago but they rectified it .

And rectified it fast . Even today you can still play these sims on your 4k monitor and still see targets . Even VR works.

What I'm saying here is DCS needs to find that technology that these other old sims use . As well as new sims .

With all the lighting effects we have in dcs surely they can come up with something. 

 

Yes I tend to agree. Eg a better solution is to scale the aircraft models to the FOV instead of to the pixels, and fade them appropriately.

The way it's done in IL2 I can still see them faintly in the distance and start to make out stubs of wings as I get closer.

The way it's done in BMS however is overdone, they are way too large in the distance but I don't know if they offer some sort of configuration for their smart scaling or not. 

I don't play MSFS enough to remember how it works there.

[Britchot]

Just adding a video to show where some aircraft LODs disappear (MiG-21 and Mirage F1) before the spotting dot and others overlap visibility (MiG-19, AV-8B, F-5E, M2kC).  Settings are DLSS on, Sharpening at 1.0, LOD at 2.0, and Antistropic filtering off.    

 

Posting the link as HD is processed (need to step out).  You may need to wait a few for a clearer image.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Britchot

[Why485]

1 hour ago, Britchot said:

Just adding a video to show where some aircraft LODs disappear (MiG-21 and Mirage F1) before the spotting dot and others overlap visibility (MiG-19, AV-8B, F-5E, M2kC).  Settings are DLSS on, Sharpening at 1.0, LOD at 2.0, and Antistropic filtering off. 

Posting the link as HD is processed (need to step out).  You may need to wait a few for a clearer image.

Posting a screenshot of your settings page would be better, but that's pretty compelling evidence of the issues. That's a great video.

[trev5150]

6 hours ago, Why485 said:

Posting a screenshot of your settings page would be better

How? The bug report isn't for you. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by trev5150

[Why485]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:04 PM, trev5150 said:

How? The bug report isn't for you. 

No, it's not for me. It's to make this as easy as possible for ED because the more guesswork they have to do to debug this the less likely it is to get fixed. I have a vested interest in seeing these bugs get fixed, and having the exact settings removes any ambiguity and ensures nothing is missed.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Why485

[Britchot]

The issues I recorded above are fixed in the version released on 19.12.23. 

[YoYo]

52 minutes ago, Britchot said:

The issues I recorded above are fixed in the version released on 19.12.23. 

What? Maybe you have different DCS version . In DCS Open Beta 2.9.2.49629 it wasnt touched and the dot looks like it was, the same, no any improvements. Also no any info about changes in the changelog. Placebo effect of the new I think so .

[Britchot]

7 hours ago, YoYo said:

What? Maybe you have different DCS version . In DCS Open Beta 2.9.2.49629 it wasnt touched and the dot looks like it was, the same, no any improvements. Also no any info about changes in the changelog. Placebo effect of the new I think so .

The dots are there and the same, yes.  I'm referring to the disappearing LODs for MiG-21 and F1 that I posted a video on.  It no longer happens with Anisotropic Filtering OFF. With it set to x16 they still disappear. 

[YoYo]

2 hours ago, Britchot said:

The dots are there and the same, yes.  I'm referring to the disappearing LODs for MiG-21 and F1 that I posted a video on.  It no longer happens with Anisotropic Filtering OFF. With it set to x16 they still disappear. 

Ahh ok, some LOD could be changed however this „big dot issue” is present still, we have to wait for the fix still.

[TAIPAN_]

19 hours ago, Britchot said:

The dots are there and the same, yes.  I'm referring to the disappearing LODs for MiG-21 and F1 that I posted a video on.  It no longer happens with Anisotropic Filtering OFF. With it set to x16 they still disappear. 

That's no good, almost everyone uses Anisotropic 16x because it's very low performance cost.

[Sarowa]

I tried using the new option to turn off the larger dots and revert to the smaller dots. I experienced exactly the same issue with dots disappearing based on where I look or my zoom level. (see Item 2 in the original post)

[YoYo]

Not solved, still the dot is present after the first Unified Version patch (example of maximum range - big dot in VR still):

 

[Why485]

5 minutes ago, YoYo said:

Not solved, still the dot is present after the first Unified Version patch (example of maximum range - big dot in VR still):

Can you post this test mission? That's a very specific lighting and altitude/aspect setup that I'd like to add to my battery of spotting tests.

[YoYo]

Just now, Why485 said:

Can you post this test mission? That's a very specific lighting and altitude/aspect setup that I'd like to add to my battery of spotting tests.

Nothing special , I just put myself and my opponent in the editor, 10:00.