resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, Bazz_Mulder said:

Right, so the point is that KoN and Kermit are describing spotting in VR, 2D is not affected.

I wonder what the culprit is here. The headset in question has basically the same resolution as a 4K monitor 2,000x4,000. Perhaps the trouble is in the upscaling. I thought the system was supposed to take that into account but it looks like it’s not. What happens if you run the headset at its native res? Arguably you’d see the same thing as a monitor player sees. 
PS reading that post again it seems indeed like upscaling is causing the problem. And the trouble with putting the same dot into VR as on a monitor is that it appears gigantic like in the Kermit video, I trust that’s the early version. 

Edited September 17, 2024 by SharpeXB

[KoN]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Definitely something wrong there. Realize the dots are in fact just dots and at that range the 3D model would be bigger than the dots. I can see other aircraft very well miles away and I’m seeing a model, not a dot. I can see small missiles like Mavs flying to their targets. 

Dots have another issue which is afaik they’re just black. I don’t think light colored dots appear over dark backgrounds, how could they? The ocean is especially good at contrasting light colored aircraft in front of it or that AGM-65.

Sharpe you are not in VR . You have a completely different setup .  

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, KoN said:

Sharpe you are not in VR . You have a completely different setup .  

I know I’m just saying this for comparison. Can you see these targets you mentioned using a screen?

[SparrowLT]

Also before 6 months ago this wasnt that big of a problem... it was a challenge to spot other craft without any visual help from DCS even if its the chevron but i played for months on Enigma and i allways could see the other jets if i knew where they were .. was it because CGI/EWR called for the BRA or cause i had radar cotnact or because i actually spoted it..  yes i got jumped on from time to time but you felt it was that.. being jumped on wich is to be expected in such battlefield..

 

But from the last 6 months or so that all went to hell and now they are just invisible..  even friendlies.. i have lost friendlies in front of me flying away that just became invisible after a couple miles .. its a disaster for the 6 monthds and my setup is the same.. same resolution.. same antialiasing .. nothing i tried improved it at all or helped at all..

[KoN]

3 hours ago, SparrowLT said:

Also before 6 months ago this wasnt that big of a problem... it was a challenge to spot other craft without any visual help from DCS even if its the chevron but i played for months on Enigma and i allways could see the other jets if i knew where they were .. was it because CGI/EWR called for the BRA or cause i had radar cotnact or because i actually spoted it..  yes i got jumped on from time to time but you felt it was that.. being jumped on wich is to be expected in such battlefield..

 

But from the last 6 months or so that all went to hell and now they are just invisible..  even friendlies.. i have lost friendlies in front of me flying away that just became invisible after a couple miles .. its a disaster for the 6 months and my setup is the same.. same resolution.. same antialiasing .. nothing i tried improved it at all or helped at all..

Been play this sim for years and years started VR about two years ago maybe three . Amazing cockpits and yes i could spot that contact knowing where to look EWR and radar but still was harder without knowing where too look but  like you , its now impossible .

And people think we are making this dog up .

WWII server is empty 8 players , 3 players , 14 players , on a Sunday, man that server was full , sometimes i had to wait for a slot . Now its dead .

I've even uninstalled the Normandy map .  This spotting bug is making this so called sim unplayable for me , now I'm uninstalling maps as the servers are empty . 

Edited September 17, 2024 by KoN

[Zakson85]

14 hours ago, KoN said:

Reshade 6 is working in VR . XRNS still not working

2 question
1: reshade works with openxr?
2: xrns what's your problem with this? It works fine for me, can I help you somehow?

[KoN]

18 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Definitely something wrong there. Realize the dots are in fact just dots and at that range the 3D model would be bigger than the dots. I can see other aircraft very well miles away and I’m seeing a model, not a dot. I can see small missiles like Mavs flying to their targets. 

Dots have another issue which is afaik they’re just black. I don’t think light colored dots appear over dark backgrounds, how could they? The ocean is especially good at contrasting light colored aircraft in front of it or that AGM-65.

You are in a flat screen . You wont see any of this in VR .

EWR  Call outs at 10km I don't see it , call outs at 5km still don't see it . I see gun tracer firing at me and yet no aircraft until right on top of you . Others have also stated the same experiences. I've lowered resolution on my headset to simulate a Rift-S . I've higher my Resolution to simulate a pico4 x 2160 . And still testing , Yet fire up other combat flight sims , no problems seeing them targets . So this is not my headset its a DCS thing . 

10 hours ago, Zakson85 said:

2 question
1: reshade works with openxr?
2: xrns what's your problem with this? It works fine for me, can I help you somehow?

Yes reshade now works in VR . 

And NO i cant get XRNS to work i have latest 5a i think . self install . DCS crashes if XRNS is installed . 

[draconus]

28 minutes ago, KoN said:

I see gun tracer firing at me and yet no aircraft

This is realistic since tracers are flying toward you and by definition are always closer than the firing aircraft. Rounds can fly a few km ahead.

30 minutes ago, KoN said:

And still testing , Yet fire up other combat flight sims , no problems seeing them targets .

Other games are irrelevant since they use special tech to make other aircraft larger for gameplay purposes - not realism.

@SharpeXB Dots are black but they do fade at distance and they were "huge" in VR only in one of the older "improved dots" iterations (they were actually more than dots) but they are normal since a few updates - meaning dot = 1 pixel.

Consider removing any 3rd party apps and tools wrt display/video/fgx running in background like reshade - this all can affect spotting.

[Bazz_Mulder]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Other games are irrelevant since they use special tech to make other aircraft larger for gameplay purposes - not realism.

Other games are relevant for a comparison of different system used to let people enjoy playing video game on PCs with different hardware, on different resolutions.

DCS is a game, not a real life, so that whole “realism” thing that you are preaching about in nearly every post you make is just a relative term just for you.

Instead of making statements, try to be more open-minded to others' opinions.
The source of this entire topic is a representation of spotting in a PC app/game which causes problems for people.
You have a low res VR headset, so it's the similar for you as for others in 2D where it seems that you are not affected.

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, KoN said:

You are in a flat screen . You wont see any of this in VR .

Curious why that would be. A typical headset has the same 2000x4000 resolution as a 4K monitor. You can easily see other aircraft on that without using dots  

3 hours ago, draconus said:

Dots are black but they do fade at distance

 Right. I don’t imagine light colored dots appear against dark backgrounds like the water. Rather a shortcoming for that feature. 

[draconus]

39 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You can easily see other aircraft on that without using dots

Again, the dots are there and you cannot disable them.

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, draconus said:

Again, the dots are there and you cannot disable them.

Right. When I say “off” I mean the “off” in the game that reverts the setting back to the 2.8 version. On a 4K monitor those are just about invisible. Practically like no dots at all. 

[draconus]

2 hours ago, Bazz_Mulder said:

DCS is a game, not a real life...

Good that you know the difference. Now you have to understand the difference between different games. In DCS, "the most realistic military flight simulator", a study sim as you could've heard, the realism is the goal but there are options to let anyone play at their own level and with helpers, hence labels and such.

Edited September 18, 2024 by draconus

[Bazz_Mulder]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Good that you know the difference. Now you have to understand the difference between different games. In DCS, "the most realistic military flight simulator", a study sim as you could've heard, the realism is the goal but there are options to let anyone play at their own level and with helpers, hence labels and such.

 

I have to? Haha, sure  
DCS is the "the most realistic military flight simulator"? Come on man, it still has clouds that are invisible to AI and IR, much realism 
Currently, improved spotting dot is not working as intended for people in VR as it is in 2D. Now, you have to understand that stating it is realistic because it works for you, is just egoistic and not helping to achieve exactly what you wrote.

Other pc sim game ("ekhm" that is supposedly even higher in realism than DCS, "ekhm") has somehow managed to fix the spotting issue with smart scaling. Having an open discussion about possible options can only help with achieving exactly that in DCS as well, so let's try to fix what is broken and then adjust for realism.

[SharpeXB]

11 minutes ago, Bazz_Mulder said:

Other pc sim game ("ekhm" that is supposedly even higher in realism than DCS, "ekhm") has somehow managed to fix the spotting issue with smart scaling.

And this is how players have been crippled at their spotting ability in DCS because they’re conditioned to think distant aircraft are 2-3x the size they should be. 

[peachmonkey]

35 minutes ago, Bazz_Mulder said:

I have to? Haha, sure  
DCS is the "the most realistic military flight simulator"? Come on man, it still has clouds that are invisible to AI and IR, much realism 
Currently, improved spotting dot is not working as intended for people in VR as it is in 2D. Now, you have to understand that stating it is realistic because it works for you, is just egoistic and not helping to achieve exactly what you wrote.

Other pc sim game ("ekhm" that is supposedly even higher in realism than DCS, "ekhm") has somehow managed to fix the spotting issue with smart scaling. Having an open discussion about possible options can only help with achieving exactly that in DCS as well, so let's try to fix what is broken and then adjust for realism.

no need to argue with him, ED's definition of realism is amorphous. It changes to suite their narrative, but mostly because they can't afford to supply their testers with the top of the line equipment. Once they get to the point of running 4k VR headsets the definition of "realism" will change again. If you ask them what that realism standard actually is they'll start talking about pixels. You know, like the pixels you see in your real life. Check your eyes for pixels, man. They are out there.

[KoN]

Tried both options old spotting and the new spotting in VR . 

I see no difference in this opinion. 

[bainsy]

Can @BIGNEWYor @NineLine comment on where this is at? I am a 10+ year user of DCS (and previously LOMAC) and have currently put DCS on hold due to the fact that I can't see other aircraft until it is far too late (usually inside 1 mile). I use a Pimax Crystal VR headset, and even tried reverting to 2D (4K 27" display). The problem is equally bad in both VR and 2D. I have never had so much trouble with visually acquiring targets and other aircraft as I have on recent versions of DCS. I also fly IRL so I have a good idea what real world visual acquisition entails.

If where we are now is ED's version of "Solved", then I guess it's time for this long time user to move on...

[NineLine]

We have been doing some heavy testing on this and have decided for this upcoming patch to roll back the changes so that we have more time to prepare a system that will adjust the don't based on what headset you are using (or if you are on 2D). We are also looking to see if some options to adjust yourself would make sense as well. We are sorry for the delays on this but trying to test across a broad sample of setups does take time. 

[bainsy]

Thank you very much @NineLine. Your reply is a big relief.

[SharpeXB]

Allowing players to adjust the dot sizes for themselves would just end up as an exploit in multiplayer.

[Zakson85]

19 hours ago, NineLine said:

for this upcoming patch to roll back the changes

Great news, thank you. Has anyone noticed a bug that causes dots to completely disappear on missions with a lot of objects? Without solving this problem, there is probably no point in working on refining the final effect.

[PawlaczGMD]

On 9/18/2024 at 7:42 AM, SharpeXB said:

Curious why that would be. A typical headset has the same 2000x4000 resolution as a 4K monitor. You can easily see other aircraft on that without using dots  

 Right. I don’t imagine light colored dots appear against dark backgrounds like the water. Rather a shortcoming for that feature. 

VR works completely differently, it's not just the resolution. The image is distorted unevenly, has to go through imperfect lenses, screen is right up your face, display type is generally different, focal point has a finite distance, there is chromatic aberration,  etc. You just cannot compare it to flat screen of more or less the same resolution. You just have to try it yourself to see the difference in spotting, no point in discussing it if you don't.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, PawlaczGMD said:

You just have to try it yourself to see the difference in spotting, no point in discussing it if you don't.

I’ve tried VR headsets and used them for work. Honestly I can’t imagine flight simming with one due to the resolution. With a monitor you don’t need the dots for spotting or IDing at all. 

Edited September 27, 2024 by SharpeXB

[PawlaczGMD]

49 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve tried VR headsets and used them for work. Honestly I can’t imagine flight simming with one due to the resolution. With a monitor you don’t need the dots for spotting or IDing at all. 

 

Yeah, that's why I got the Pimax Crystal, which has great resolution. I've tried Quest 2 before, and it really wasn't sufficient. The spotting issue seems to not be a limitation of resolution. Well, there are spotting dots in 2D, but not in VR, so clearly not everyone agrees that they are unnecessary in 2D.