resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[Tippis]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s no way to turn the dots off

Objectively wrong.

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah there’s never been a true Off option. Although the 2.8 version was basically invisible in 4K

Objectively wrong. Both of them.

You see, it's not the number of pixels that determine visibility — it's resolution in relation to distance.

Oh, and remember that time you used exactly that version to show that actually things could be seen just fine and therefore there was nothing wrong with spotting?

 

5 hours ago, SparrowLT said:

Sorry if i asked this before ... but those who feel spotting works.. what monitor size are you using?

To  be the annoying person who answers with a question, what do you mean by “works”?

Spotting has never worked in DCS because it has never had a functional and realistic simulation of perception. Spotting dots work(ish) but have a limited applicability and are currently in a bad place because they are trying to use them to solve a problem they are not suited for.

But spotting is dependent just a s much on your physical display setup as the graphics settings you've applied. They barely work for me (34" ultrawide) but a large part of that is having made sure that the monitor sits at a distance where individual pixels are just visible but will happily get smeared out if the contrast or ∆E* is too low.

[Bulldogg]

SMUDGE 12 O'CLOCK HIGH!!

The "improved" spotting dot in the last patch is a disaster for realistic VR - e.g. any beyond visual range work is ruined and most other a/c on a/c.  

ED please implement an option to REMOVE all spotting effect as before this last update.  Thanks.

[KoN]

Ed needs to test on most heads sets , not just crystal. 

Surly we have beta testers here . 

[Daemoc]

7 hours ago, SparrowLT said:

Sorry if i asked this before ... but those who feel spotting works.. what monitor size are you using?

 

im using a 23" screen ..  been thinking in upgrading to 27 or something like that for a long time and migh be critical

I would not say "it works", but I do not see what the VR users see.

2D at 4K, I can not see anything. The dot's are so small, they might as well not even exist. There are very rare occasions that you may spot a dot in a clear sky, but it's rare. Using MSAA vs TAA helps a bit, but not much.

I am using a 48" Samsung 4K TV for a monitor.

If I drop the resolution to 2560x1440 and turn off TAA, I can see the larger dot squares much like the VR users describe. With a single aircraft it is not so bad though. It is REALLY noticeable in large formations at specific distance bands.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Daemoc said:

If I drop the resolution to 2560x1440 and turn off TAA, I can see the larger dot squares much like the VR users describe.

See this is the problem. The exploit of making the game look like garbage in order to get an advantage still exists. I thought the whole idea of improved spotting dots was to get rid of this phenomenon. I think the only way to improve spotting dots is to eliminate them altogether. 

[okopanja]

Its been a while. So how do you enable dots? At my 34'' with all antialiasing off, I must be blind as a bet?

Tip and Sharp, any idea?

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Its been a while. So how do you enable dots?

Gameplay/ Improved Spotting Dots: On 

Really as far as I hear it there’s no way to turn them off. The command above has no effect. Apparently they’re always on. Possibly the inability to turn them off only affects VR. I’m away from DCS right now and can’t test it myself. 

Edited October 11, 2024 by SharpeXB

[WindyTX]

In reality the dots have never really worked but I always play PVE now so it doesn't bother me anymore.  When I did PVP the way the dots worked meant that a Mud looking up could always spot you where as in the real world I cant remember a single time when I was shot in the face. A light grey Aircraft pointing straight at you is actually super hard to see against the sky. Our training hawks were given a black paintjob to make them easier to see and would then act more like our old dots :). 

I really want whatever we had before this dot update.  I turned the dots off and the rendering was close enough that it didn't  break immersion  and I could see enough with a G2.

[MAXsenna]

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Gameplay/ Improved Spotting Dots: On 
Really as far as I hear it there’s no way to turn them off. The command above has no effect. Apparently they’re always on. Possibly the inability to turn them off only affects VR. I’m away from DCS right now and can’t test it myself. 

 

Can you elaborate on what "off" is to you? I'm not at home and can't prove it. If I turn dots on. I can see the through the fuselage, clouds or whatever. If I turn them off I can't.

Edit: Oops, I found this. 

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Edited October 11, 2024 by MAXsenna

[Daemoc]

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

See this is the problem. The exploit of making the game look like garbage in order to get an advantage still exists. I thought the whole idea of improved spotting dots was to get rid of this phenomenon. I think the only way to improve spotting dots is to eliminate them altogether. 

To be fair, to say I can see the dots easier at lower resolutions does not necessarily mean an exploit. This is just what I have experienced during different missions. I have no idea at what distance those targets have the larger dots appear compared to the 4K native. I have not tried to replay the same missions and analyze every pixel at x miles.

The sad truth is though, most of the "eye candy" options make it harder to spot everything period. TAA at high frame rates looks great overall, but the temporal aspect of it makes fine details hard to see.

[Tippis]

30 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

See this is the problem. The exploit of making the game look like garbage in order to get an advantage still exists. I thought the whole idea of improved spotting dots was to get rid of this phenomenon. I think the only way to improve spotting dots is to eliminate them altogether. 

No. The only way to improve spotting dots is to improve spotting dots.

Getting rid of them would be moronic since that would introduce a far far worse exploit than what you're complaining about. In fact, your complaint here is simply that others have an advantage, the same as you. That is not actually an advantage at all. It's just the you don't have it uniquely, and this is of course the core reason for your complaining. You were so used to being able to see targets at outrageous and unrealistic ranges, and now you grasp at straws to get that advantage back.

It won't happen. Your exploit is gone and you won't get it back no matter how much you wail and whinge about others getting some perceived advantage (that you can also have, by the way, but which you don't actually even understand what it is). Drop it. Dots will be improved and once they're suitably tuned, the option to do anything to them should go away exactly to get rid of the kind of exploits you want for yourself and not for others.

 

4 minutes ago, Daemoc said:

To be fair, to say I can see the dots easier at lower resolutions does not necessarily mean an exploit. This is just what I have experienced during different missions. I have no idea at what distance those targets have the larger dots appear compared to the 4K native.

Don't introduce reality into Sharpe's assumptions. It ruins his quest for unfair advantages.

Also, don't confuse him by explaining how monitors… you know… work. That also ruins everything.

Edited October 11, 2024 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

Just now, MAXsenna said:

Can you elaborate on what "off" is to you? I'm not at home and can't prove it. If I turn dots on. I can see the through the fuselage, clouds or whatever. If I turn them off I can't.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

The dots you can see through fuselage must be the dot labels although I see accounts of the spotting dots appearing through clouds. The Spotting Dots have never had a true Off setting. When the improved version was introduced with 2.9, Off just switched them back to v2.8. Really though I found that in 4K the spotting dot 2.8 version was just invisible, so effectively “off” to me. The old spotting dots in game version 2.8 never had a command, they were always on by default for everyone.

7 minutes ago, Daemoc said:

The sad truth is though, most of the "eye candy" options make it harder to spot everything period. TAA at high frame rates looks great overall, but the temporal aspect of it makes fine details hard to see.

Yeah I honestly think DLAA looks better but MSAA reveals the dots more. Frankly I think they’re kinda unrealistic so if I was only playing SP I’d prefer DLAA

[Daemoc]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The dots you can see through fuselage must be the dot labels although I see accounts of the spotting dots appearing through clouds. The Spotting Dots have never had a true Off setting. When the improved version was introduced with 2.9, Off just switched them back to v2.8. Really though I found that in 4K the spotting dot 2.8 version was just invisible, so effectively “off” to me. The old spotting dots in game version 2.8 never had a command, they were always on by default for everyone.

Yeah I honestly think DLAA looks better but MSAA reveals the dots more. Frankly I think they’re kinda unrealistic so if I was only playing SP I’d prefer DLAA

I pretty much stick to SP for that reason. I play to have fun and have an immersive experience. I have not played DCS multiplayer, but I used to play multiplayer games in the past and it's just not worth it. All of the bickering, accusations, little kids blowing out my speakers screaming in their headsets... ...yeah, no thanks.

Anyway, back on topic. I would say the spotting dots are not ideal at the moment, but I am not sure what the fix is. I have just been sticking to 4k because I can't see the dots anyway.

[Tippis]

27 minutes ago, Daemoc said:

Anyway, back on topic. I would say the spotting dots are not ideal at the moment, but I am not sure what the fix is. I have just been sticking to 4k because I can't see the dots anyway.

The fix is two separate tracks:

The realism track — make an informed decision on what the inner and outer limits of dot rendering should be. At what range(s) should nothing be rendered, no matter what? When should a clear and obvious dot be rendered? At what range(s) should that dot be replaced by a 3D object? As a bonus iteration, figure out if and to what extent size, aspect, and colour should affect those. This is just real-world data that needs to get fed in as hard caps on the rendering pipelines, and hardware should at no point be a factor.

The equitability track — figure out what should be the desired common outcome. What size at what resolution at what display type should be the benchmark, and how do you make sure any other variations match that? Part of this will have to go into the question of fade-in and -out to make sure larger dots don't clearly blink out of existence. This is all about rendering pipelines and hardware differences, and is arguably the much harder problem. This is part of what's going on now, although there is some question as to what degree a benchmark has actually been established internally so it might not be built on a solid foundation.

Beyond that lies a number of different iterations where other spotting-adjacent issues might need to be looked at to create a smooth perception simulation and visual experience all the way from BVR right into having to scrape off bits of enemy paint from your fuselage. Dots are only really suitable for the outer-edge-WVR segment of that problem, but would most likely have to be (re)adjusted to fit into whatever mid-range solution is chosen.

[KoN]

ED needs to make a clear decision and direction how to tackle this problem. The first module was the black shark Russian license . I bought that , then came the A10-C. I bought that and I had very little problems spotting targets , but the game engine was cleaner and more clarity. I remember dogfights in the P51 against the 190D ,all on flat screen VR was infant.

Had no problem back then , as time goes on DCS has become a murky, cloudy, experience. Use reshade and see how clear DCS can become .

2.9 brought in some dodge shading and lightning. Invisible airframes and disappearing contrails , but these have been around for a long time , Vukan is coming and I really hope ED have got their act together. But I feel it will be another big patch over another big patch to make the code even more complicated and unfixable. 

I really want the Phantom but I don't see the point if the game mechanics are still broken. 

ED needs to rethink it's game plan. 

Concentrate on key fixes and not BS . 

 

[SharpeXB]

32 minutes ago, KoN said:

Had no problem back then , as time goes on DCS has become a murky, cloudy, experience.

It’s odd that you would say this. By any measure the graphics have vastly improved since then. I would say the old game was murky compared to today.

DCS does still suffers from rather dated graphics. It appears to lack a broad color palette and its shaders look unsophisticated. I’m not much of an expert in this regard but DCS seems quite out of date. I think one of the most important things this game could do that would aid in visibility issues would be to add HDR support. Better contrast and a greater range of color would do wonders here.

[Branimir76]

Still no fix for the smudge?!?!

Come on! We have missions to fly!

[Tippis]

36 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I think one of the most important things this game could do that would aid in visibility issues would be to add HDR support. Better contrast and a greater range of color would do wonders here.

Yes, this would be the perfect moment to introduce yet another visibility variable that needs to be made equitable across hardware to ensure that those who have the equipment to display that wider gamut doesn't gain some nonsensical advantage and turn the whole game into P2W just to please some microsopically irrelevant subsegment of the already very tiny PvP subsegment of the rather small MP subsegment

We know this is the outcome you want.

For that reason alone, we can conclude that it is not in the game's best interest and especially not until the baseline has been established to your disliking.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I think one of the most important things this game could do that would aid in visibility issues would be to add HDR support. Better contrast and a greater range of color would do wonders here

No, it wouldn't help at all and is the least important factor here.

[MoleUK]

17 minutes ago, draconus said:

No, it wouldn't help at all and is the least important factor here.

Yeah HDR is a non-issue.

I'd like to see the bugs that leads to dots disappearing/derendering or rendering incorrectly (pale instead of dark) fixed before any further tweaks to spotting arrive.

It's going to be hard for ED to get accurate/consistent feedback when dots are not rendering the same for people even on the same hardware/settings.

Edited October 13, 2024 by MoleUK

[SharpeXB]

52 minutes ago, draconus said:

No, it wouldn't help at all and is the least important factor here.

Absolutely it would help visibility. It would have anything to do with dots though. Aside from making them easier to see

Edited October 13, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Absolutely it would help visibility.

…and that's a problem, which is not what we need now.

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It would have anything to do with dots though. 

Would or wouldn't?

If it would, how? And how would you make sure that it doesn't affect visibility unfairly?

If it wouldn't, why do you even bring it up since it's irrelevant?

[KoN]

22 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s odd that you would say this. By any measure the graphics have vastly improved since then. I would say the old game was murky compared to today.

DCS does still suffers from rather dated graphics. It appears to lack a broad color palette and its shaders look unsophisticated. I’m not much of an expert in this regard but DCS seems quite out of date. I think one of the most important things this game could do that would aid in visibility issues would be to add HDR support. Better contrast and a greater range of color would do wonders here.

So basically everything I said above , . 

20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Absolutely it would help visibility. It would have anything to do with dots though. Aside from making them easier to see

 

Just use reshade to get your HDR . 

 

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, KoN said:

So basically everything I said above

It’s still been very much improved over the last 12 years. I would actually use those terms “murky and cloudy” to describe the old version. Before EDGE I think it was. 

20 minutes ago, KoN said:

Just use reshade to get your HDR .

Reshade can’t give you genuine HDR. That has to be in the game itself.

[Tippis]

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Reshade can’t give you genuine HDR. That has to be in the game itself.

No, but curiously enough it can give you better HDR for the purposes of this discussion.

Ponder that for a moment.