resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[Tippis]

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

With the (local) setting this is how the other players can make you appear. Visible at 35 miles or as giant cubes 

So it's working as intended then. For the bajillionth time, you try to make a point but instead accidentally prove yourself objectively wrong. You have shown that it is not an exploit. Congratulations, case closed.

You do understand that players being able to pick their own settings is a good thing, right? And that just because they don't use the same settings you want for yourself, that doesn't mean they're doing something wrong. Right?

 

 

…right?

Edited December 24, 2024 by Tippis

[Zakson85]

64 pages of dot-shaped text. However, the bug of disappearing dots above 100 units still exists. Congratulations.

[YoYo]

I tested it in VR just now. It's very good! I have set it to Auto (Quest). Everything is back to normal, at the same time the target appears gradually from about 10 nm (6nm is already clearly visible). At least in VR it seems that the problem has been corrected. For now I need more tests, but the first touch is very promising. Thank you! 

16 hours ago, Parkour said:

THANK YOU!!!

Just tested and the Spotting Dots are able to be turned OFF in VR. Thank you Thank you!  Best Christmas Present Ever. 

There are no more large squares around the aircraft or ground targets when turning it off in VR.  I love it!!  Immersion is back on the table! 

+1.

Edited December 25, 2024 by YoYo

[breetai]

Yes, thanks ED. I can now spot again in VR. Pimax Crystal OG.

[Joch1955]

So I had a chance to play with these and here are my preliminary comments:

-AUTO/2 pixels: seem about the same. In perfect conditions, planes stand out too much at 10 miles and are fairly easy to spot at 25 miles, although in a dynamic combat situation where spoting is fleeting, AUTO seems to work well.

-OFF is at the other extreme. Planes show up as small dots at 3 miles, can be seen if zoomed in at 5 miles, but pretty much impossible to keep tracking a target in a turning combat unless within 1 mile.

-1 pixel: seems like a good compromise. Planes show up as small dots at 10 miles, but are easy to miss if you dont pay attention. 

nice to see the devs are still putting effort into this and giving us options.

tested with a Reverb G2/VR, pixel density 1.0, no anti-aliasing.

[freehand]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

@BIGNEWY Question: Is “Off” actually off meaning that no spotting dots are displayed at all? Or does this simply revert to the old v2.8 dots?

Why not try it & see.

[Cab]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

@BIGNEWY Question: Is “Off” actually off meaning that no spotting dots are displayed at all? Or does this simply revert to the old v2.8 dots?

 

On 12/24/2024 at 7:44 AM, BIGNEWY said:

• Added a new Spotting Dots option which is replacing the “improved spotting dots” option. Improved spotting dots functionality which makes spotting dots independent from zoom FOV will be active all the time now. With new “Spotting Dot” setting you will be able to set: 
  • OFF - to switch spotting dots off completely

Emphasis added

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, freehand said:

Why not try it & see.

In 4K the old 2.8 dots are pretty much invisible. But at lower resolutions they were an unrealistic exploit in the game, hence the need to create a new system. 
Prior to this update the setting read “Improved Spotting Dots” On or Off which is exactly what it did. It turned the new ones on and off, but there were always dots. On and Off just toggled the version. Now the setting just reads “Spotting Dots” implying that now there is just one style.

On 12/24/2024 at 7:44 AM, BIGNEWY said:

OFF - to switch spotting dots off completely

I guess that answers it

[Robi Hobby]

 Yes, thanks ED

[Red_Dragon]

В 12/25/2024 в 12:22 AM, SharpeXB сказал:

An in-game setting that’s an exploit

We’ll see how long it takes for people to realize this and force it off.

You are either a hopeless egoist or too young to understand that there are many people with poor eyesight and very very poor eyesight. Secondly, even GOOD equipment gives very different results. I didn't see any contacts on my 36 inch monitor at 1080, while my friend with the same 1080 resolution saw contacts like huge fat flies.

But u don't care.....

Edited December 26, 2024 by Red_Dragon

[SharpeXB]

29 minutes ago, Red_Dragon said:

You are either a hopeless egoist or too young to understand that there are many people with poor eyesight and very very poor eyesight. Secondly, even GOOD equipment gives very different results. I didn't see any contacts on my 36 inch monitor at 1080, while my friend with the same 1080 resolution saw contacts like huge fat flies.

But u don't care.....

What is an accessibility feature for some can just be an exploit for normally sighted people. In nearly every case eyesight is correctable. I have pretty severe presbyopia but treat it with contact lenses and progressive eyeglasses. ED isn’t your eye doctor. If you can’t see contacts on a 36” screen that’s a red flag that you need to go see one. 
The example I posted earlier is what a player sees with 1080 and 2 pixel dots. That’s an exploit pure and simple. 

Edited December 26, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Red_Dragon]

39 минут назад, SharpeXB сказал:

What is an accessibility feature for some can just be an exploit for normally sighted people. In nearly every case eyesight is correctable. I have pretty severe presbyopia but treat it with contact lenses and progressive eyeglasses. ED isn’t your eye doctor. If you can’t see contacts on a 36” screen that’s a red flag that you need to go see one. 
The example I posted earlier is what a player sees with 1080 and 2 pixel dots. That’s an exploit pure and simple. 

And you're not ED to determine for them what to do and how to perceive customer problems.

Edited December 26, 2024 by Red_Dragon

[SharpeXB]

39 minutes ago, Red_Dragon said:

And you're not ED to determine for them what to do and how to perceive customer problems.

Well ED gave players the option to turn these off in missions or servers so it's up to them now.

[SharpeXB]

In order to exploit the system all a player needs to do is set their resolution to 1080x1920 or lower and enlarge the dots to 2 pixels. You can see large squares highlighting your enemies at 16 or so miles. They will actually appear as these white squares in front of the dark clouds too. These are all extremely visible in the actual gameplay.

Enforcing the Auto mode would at least be a step in the right direction instead of allowing (local) and permitting exploits like this.

[rob10]

58 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Enforcing the Auto mode would at least be a step in the right direction instead of allowing (local) and permitting exploits like this.

If you don't like it, petition the server owners to set it that way.  If they don't set it the way you want, don't fly those servers.  Others may want to play the game differently to you or I and that's completely OK.  There is no right or wrong regardless of what you might want to believe.

[SharpeXB]

56 minutes ago, rob10 said:

If you don't like it, petition the server owners to set it that way. 

I already have…

Consider that many people are flying ground attack and probably don’t want to be that visible to everyone. You’re already a victim flying that way. No point in making things worse.

The problem in DCS is that it’s not really an option to play on a different server, there are so few. Which is any adding another setting like this wasn’t such a good idea. 

Edited December 26, 2024 by SharpeXB

[okopanja]

On 12/24/2024 at 11:01 PM, Tippis said:

You do understand that players being able to pick their own settings is a good thing, right? And that just because they don't use the same settings you want for yourself, that doesn't mean they're doing something wrong. Right?

We are all reading 64 of pages like this. I am pretty sure both ED and us are sick of it.

Clearly this is about a personal preference, so why not allow people being seen to opt in/out?

E.g. something like this:

1. I agree to be shown as 1 pixel or 2 pixel on HD display? So basically this would solve the problem of ground pounders not wanting to be shown as blocks. If you do not agree to this: you can not use the option yourself.

2 . Or make this valid only for air to air jets, and leave the helis and dedicated ground pounders concealed?

And hopefully this would make  @SharpeXB and @Tippis both happy.

Edited December 26, 2024 by okopanja

[MoleUK]

On 12/24/2024 at 1:44 PM, BIGNEWY said:

• Added a new Spotting Dots option which is replacing the “improved spotting dots” option. Improved spotting dots functionality which makes spotting dots independent from zoom FOV will be active all the time now. With new “Spotting Dot” setting you will be able to set: 
  • OFF - to switch spotting dots off completely
  • AUTO - automatic spotting dot size calculation based on monitor or VR hardware parameters (how it worked before)
  • 1 pixel size spotting dots
  • 2 pixel size spotting dots
    Also this setting is added to the mission editor and can be enforced through mission.
    
    https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/changelog/stable/2.9.11.4686/
    
    Please let us know your feedback on these changes 

I was skeptical based on the changelog, but quad view spotting dots feel just right now. Had them set to auto while flying on ECW cauc mission, which is about the worst case scenario re: spotting.

It's not making me blind anymore. Still capping object draw to 40k to try and avoid the dot cap.

With the above changes and hopefully an eventual fix for the 100 dot cap, spotting will be in the best place it's ever been imo.

Edited December 26, 2024 by MoleUK

[SharpeXB]

37 minutes ago, okopanja said:

We are all reading 64 of pages like this. I am pretty sure both ED and us are sick of it.

Clearly this is about a personal preference, so why not allow people being seen to opt in/out?

E.g. something like this:

1. I agree to be shown as 1 pixel or 2 pixel on HD display? So basically this would solve the problem of ground pounders not wanting to be shown as blocks. If you do not agree to this: you can not use the option yourself.

2 . Or make this valid only for air to air jets, and leave the helis and dedicated ground pounders concealed?

And hopefully this would make  @SharpeXB and @Tippis both happy.

I agree not to be seen as any dot at all. solved. 

[Parabe11um]

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

In order to exploit the system all a player needs to do is set their resolution to 1080x1920 or lower and enlarge the dots to 2 pixels. You can see large squares highlighting your enemies at 16 or so miles. They will actually appear as these white squares in front of the dark clouds too. These are all extremely visible in the actual gameplay.

Enforcing the Auto mode would at least be a step in the right direction instead of allowing (local) and permitting exploits like this.

Clouds or partial clouds popping dots (completely or partially) is unrelated to the recent spotting changes and also reported.

Edited December 26, 2024 by Parabe11um

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Parabe11um said:

Clouds or partial clouds popping dots (completely or partially) is unrelated to the recent spotting changes and also reported.

That looks intentional. It’s like you get light dots in front of dark backgrounds and dark dots in front of light backgrounds. 

[Tippis]

8 hours ago, okopanja said:

And hopefully this would make  @SharpeXB and @Tippis both happy.

Sharpe will never be happy as long as it does not let him give an advantage over others that they can't control. Every time he has flipped on this issue, it can be traced back to him realising that what he just asked for does the opposite of what he wants by giving others the same advantage he has, or by removing his advantage over them. He then pivots to some new fundamental misunderstanding of how the game or computer graphics in general work in the hope that this will give him an advantage instead.

Personally, my preference is for there to be no setting at all.

It's a core part of the simulation. You shouldn't be able to turn that off, same as how you can't turn off drag or gravity. It's the same level of integral part of what is going on in the air.

The end goal here is a full-spectrum simulation of pilot's vision, with all this entails in terms of offering whatever cues and shortcuts elementary 3D graphics can't provide on its own. This means dots, scaling, forced fading, over- and undersaturation of colours, and any of the myriad of things that will help convey the cognitive process of perception as opposed to inherently incorrect naive maths.

 

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

That looks intentional. It’s like you get light dots in front of dark backgrounds and dark dots in front of light backgrounds. 

It's called contrast. Another basic part of graphics you will no doubt fail to grasp because of how very simple it is to understand and somehow try to make the foundational part of yet more accusations of exploitation.

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

In order to exploit the system

There is no exploit. Give it a rest. There is only you remaining wilfully ignorant about how computer graphics work. Just because you don't get the advantage you want, doesn't mean others are exploiting. Especially not when your own “evidence” shows that things have improved massively over your old preferred state where you — and not necessarily others — could trivially see targets at 40nm. That was an exploit. And you exploited it gleefully and to the fullest.

And stop playing in portrait mode.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Tippis

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Tippis said:

The end goal here is a full-spectrum simulation of pilot's vision

No, it should simulate RL view as best as possible. Pilot vision is subjective and spotting is a skill.

[Parabe11um]

13 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

That looks intentional. It’s like you get light dots in front of dark backgrounds and dark dots in front of light backgrounds. 

I don't think it's intentional that clouds pop dots far beyond the max range dots are supposed to be visible according to the game files.

Either way you shouldn't be putting stuff in front of clouds unless you are specifically trying show that the cloud effect on dots is bad (but again there's a bug thread for that already).

If you are talking about general spotting it'd be better to focus on clear skies.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Parabe11um

[SharpeXB]

4 minutes ago, Parabe11um said:

I don't think it's intentional that clouds pop dots far beyond the max range dots are supposed to be visible according to be files.

Either way you shouldn't be putting stuff in front of clouds unless you are specifically trying show that the cloud effect on dots is bad (but again there's a bug thread for that already).

If you are talking about general spotting it'd be better to focus on clear skies.

The dark dots are equally visible that far away if you look at the other examples. One of the weaknesses of the system is if the dots are dark, what happens in front of dark backgrounds? It’s possible to see bright aircraft very well without the dots against the sea for example. It’s as if the game is trying to compensate for the background by making them lighter. This is the Hornet Caucuses 8v8 BVR mission, give it a try. 
If this is only caused by clouds, the trouble is there are almost always clouds. Even in the Persian Gulf for some strange reason…