gear door reported Irrealistic air speed extended landing gear

[lorfar]

Hi everyone.

 

Yesterday I purchased the DCS F-16 module.

Today I realized that the landing gear can be extended at any speed.

It's irrealistic.

Could you implement this feature please?

Thank you

 

Lorenzo Farina

Edited November 18, 2023 by lorfar

[Buzz313th]

10 minutes ago, lorfar said:

Hi everyone.

 

Yesterday I purchased the DCS F-16 module.

Today I realized that the landing gear can be extended at any speed.

It's irrealistic.

Could you implement this feature please?

Thank you

 

Lorenzo Farina

 

Doesn't the gear get damaged if it's extended past 300 CAS?

[Engerek]

Yes you can extend or retract it at any speed in DCS. I hope they implament airspeed limitations of landing gear. 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Engerek
typo

[lorfar]

3 minuti fa, Engerek ha scritto:

Yes you can extend or retract it at any speed in DCS. I hope they implament airspeed limitations of landing gear. 

 

 

I agree.

 

It's can extended and retract at any speed.

 

Lorenzo 

[lorfar]

Hi again

 

What's mean "correct as-is"?

 

It's not a problem ?

 

Lorenzo

[MAXsenna]

Hi again
 
What's mean "correct as-is"?
 
It's not a problem ?
 
Lorenzo

It means that in the real plane you can do it at any speed. You need to do it on purpose though.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[lorfar]

9 ore fa, MAXsenna ha scritto:

It means that in the real plane you can do it at any speed. You need to do it on purpose though.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Now it's clear.

 

I have experience with Microprose F 16, Free Falcon and Falcon 4.0: Allied Force

 

In these case the landing gear when are extended get damage at with air speed too high.

 

Have you some explanation about these cases ?

Now i think these case are in error.

Thanks for explanation.

 

Lorenzo Farina

 

 

[MAXsenna]

Now it's clear.
 
I have experience with Microprose F 16, Free Falcon and Falcon 4.0: Allied Force
 
In these case the landing gear when are extended get damage at with air speed too high.
 
Have you some explanation about these cases ?
Now i think these case are in error.
Thanks for explanation.
 
Lorenzo Farina
 
 

It's correct that you can drop the gear at any speed, but it will get damaged if you fly too fast. There is no safety to prevent you from being stupid and don't check your speed.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[lorfar]

Many thanks again

 

Best regards

 

Lorenzo

 

I marked as solved

[buceador]

Although the gear can be extended and retracted at (almost) any speed the modeling incorporates some aspects of the damage of high speed extending or retracting.

Landing gear extend / retract or in transit: 300kts / Mach 0.65 (whichever is less)

[buceador]

Having stated that some damage is modeled I decided to test it...

I took off and left the gear extended until I reached 630 kts and the retracted it.  The nose wheel retracted but main wheels did not.  I then decelerated, as I slowed to a more normal approach speed the main gear retracted.  I then extended the gear and it extended normally and I landed with no problem.  I took off again, retracted the gear immediately, again no problem, all 3 wheels retracted. I gained altitude, extended the gear in an acute angle descent at 740 kts, the gear extended normally and I landed without incident.

It would seem that overspeeding the landing gear is NOT really modeled and of course it should be.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all, 

We have no evidence that there should be any damage to the actual landing gear based on air speed. It is possible however to damage the gear doors and we have reported this to the team.

A reminder, we can not use other simulators as evidence, if you do have real world unclassified evidence please PM me. 

thanks

[Buzz313th]

23 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi all, 

We have no evidence that there should be any damage to the actual landing gear based on air speed. It is possible however to damage the gear doors and we have reported this to the team.

A reminder, we can not use other simulators as evidence, if you do have real world unclassified evidence please PM me. 

thanks

So if exceeding VLO with gear out can potentially damage the doors.  Wouldn't a FUBAR'ed door or hydro cable lockout gear operation?

[BIGNEWY]

1 hour ago, Buzz313th said:

So if exceeding VLO with gear out can potentially damage the doors.  Wouldn't a FUBAR'ed door or hydro cable lockout gear operation?

We would need to see evidence of this, if you have any unclassified evidence please DM me.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 11/19/2023 at 6:52 PM, BIGNEWY said:

It is possible however to damage the gear doors and we have reported this to the team.

I seem to remember very early official YouTube guides for the Hornet/Falcon (I don't remember which one) talking about this, and even demonstrating it. I find it odd that it wouldn't be modelled now since it was already shown in action years ago... 

[Buzz313th]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

We would need to see evidence of this, if you have any unclassified evidence please DM me.

Lol, I have no time in a viper, nor am I privy to any documents, classified or not, but I do remember seeing, reading or hearing someone mention in official ED documentation, training mission or one of WAG’s videos, that VLO was 300KCAS and that exceeding this with gear out would damage doors or cables.  So I assume if true, that there is a possibility that simulated door or cable damage could cause the simulator to throw a failure in the gear and I’m curious what that failure is.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Buzz313th

[BIGNEWY]

As I have already mentioned the gear door damage is reported, but for actual gear damage we will need evidence. 

Whatever happens when the gear door is damaged will be simulated based on the evidence documents we have. 

[Buzz313th]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

As I have already mentioned the gear door damage is reported, but for actual gear damage we will need evidence. 

Whatever happens when the gear door is damaged will be simulated based on the evidence documents we have. 

Fair enough, I see your point.   Seems to me, it wouldn't be a bad idea if ED tried to find a retired F16 Crew Chief and put em on payroll as a part time advisor..  As a matter of fact, lets make that a "Crew Chief" for each aircraft module....  

I highly doubt the operation limitations and safety logic for the landing gear is classified.   

 

Cheers  

[darkman222]

Following this logic means, as long as there is no evidence it is considered plausible and realistic that while the gear door will get damaged, the gear itself is seen as indestructible in the ED universe until someone digs out a paper proving the opposite?
Dropping the gear at mach 1.2 without consequences is realistic?

Isnt the logic sufficient that external stores like bombs will be damaged going supersonic the gear also must be damaged when employed (at least going supersonic, talking about an obvious situation here for illustrational purpose)?!

Edited November 22, 2023 by darkman222

[skywalker22]

2 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Following this logic means, as long as there is no evidence it is considered plausible and realistic that while the gear door will get damaged, the gear itself is seen as indestructible in the ED universe until someone digs out a paper proving the opposite?
Dropping the gear at mach 1.2 without consequences is realistic?

Isnt the logic sufficient that external stores like bombs will be damaged going supersonic the gear also must be damaged when employed?!

I would say, the plane won't let you drop the gears above some speed, I would say 400 knots, to protect it self. Not sure about how is the safety when carrying armament like bombs. I find very hard to believe that you can use the full potential of the engines when fully loaded (or at least carrying heavy bombs).

[darkman222]

It does not have a self protection system against stupid pilots. And thats maybe the reason why there is no evidence or data about gear failure due to pilot error. Why would someone test that and what would this data be useful for? But because nobody tried in in the real world does not mean gear overspeed does not exist.

I remember a youtube show ( might be a guest of Movers channel) of a F14 pilot who forgot to raise the gear when taking off from a runway instead of the carrier. So he did not have it in his muscle memory. He oversped the gear. In this case there is proof and data about this incident, which is fortunate for the modelling of the DCS F14. Luckily it did not happen in the real world for an F16...yet.

[smire666]

Flying at speeds above 300Kts may detach wiring, as mentioned in Manual from ED. Thus functionality of the dependent systems (e.g. brakes) can be affected...

Edited November 28, 2023 by smire666

[buceador]

On 11/20/2023 at 9:15 PM, BIGNEWY said:

As I have already mentioned the gear door damage is reported, but for actual gear damage we will need evidence. 

Whatever happens when the gear door is damaged will be simulated based on the evidence documents we have. 

Absolutely correct in that you would need expert opinion rather than anecdotal speculation.  I actually asked Bogey Dope - F-16 crew chief (retired) this question and he confirmed that actual structural damage can occur to the airframe by exceeding speed specifications regarding landing gear.

On 11/22/2023 at 2:05 PM, skywalker22 said:

I would say, the plane won't let you drop the gears above some speed, I would say 400 knots, to protect it self.

I dropped the DCS Viper gear at 750 kts (as a test) with no apparent damage...

[darkman222]

2 hours ago, buceador said:

I actually asked Bogey Dope - F-16 crew chief (retired) this question and he confirmed that actual structural damage can occur to the airframe by exceeding speed specifications regarding landing gear.

Great. Now we have the specifications. Get them from Bogey Dope and post them or PM them to ED.

Edited November 28, 2023 by darkman222

[Shrike88]

Thank you, Please post any info from Bogey dope on this matter.  Flying with landing gear extended near mach without any type of structural compromise or damage to system out of "there is no data" to me is just lazy.  I am sure any type of digging or speaking to SME's will give evidence of something like a failed downlock actuator or something.  
Again I feel this is just lazy skipping around on systems and damage implementation, as there is so much more to be done on the damage systems model.  Even if it doesn't damage the main gear, Gear doors should be permanently damaged and either display the damage or somehow inhibit or effect subsequent extension and retraction after a VLE speed is far past exceeded.  Another Perfect test of the seeming invulnerable and unwavering rigidity of the landing gear is to side load in the extreme at high speed on the ground.  You will slide sideways perfectly and never  collapse or damage the mains while locked braking and remaining on the runway.  There are several (not to be named) manuals and sources publicly available that mention "problems associated with landing gear collapse".  

Just figured this is also related to the damage model currently implemented with the landing gear system. 

Thanks @buceador we will be all interested in the reply.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Shrike88