Mission timings and darkness

[Reflected]

Alright folks, I think this deserves a sticky thread based on the questions I've been getting:

1) UK time in June 1944 was UTC+2. The time shown in DCS is UTC. So when you see 1:30 AM on the infobar, that's 3:30 local time.

2) Yes, it's dark, but if you crank the gamma it's actually quite OK.

3) There is a bug in the DCS engine. At 2:30 AM the full moon produces a lot of light and it looks beautiful, but at 3:30 AM that same full moon produces no light as dawn approaches. ED is aware and I hope they'll fix it soon.

4) This is exactly what happened in real life. Was it hard? You bet it was...A few miles from Debden the 352nd FG lost a pilot on takeoff who crashed into the control tower in the darkness. Freedom is not free. This finally gave me a glimpse into the price that had to be paid for the liberation of Europe, and it makes me appreciate their sacrifice even more.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Reflected

[Ghost79]

56 minutes ago, Reflected said:

Alright folks, I think this deserves a sticky thread based on the questions I've been getting:

1) UK time in June 1944 was UTC+2. The time shown in DCS is UTC. So when you see 1:30 AM on the infobar, that's 3:30 local time.

2) Yes, it's dark, but if you crank the gamma it's actually quite OK.

3) There is a bug in the DCS engine. At 2:30 AM the full moon produces a lot of light and it looks beautiful, but at 3:30 AM that same full moon produces no light as dawn approaches. ED is aware and I hope they'll fix it soon.

4) This is exactly what happened in real life. Was it hard? You bet it was...A few miles from Debden the 352nd FG lost a pilot on takeoff who crashed into the control tower in the darkness. Freedom is not free. This finally gave me a glimpse into the price that had to be paid for the liberation of Europe, and it makes me appreciate their sacrifice even more.

 

 

I did wonder why it was very dark when i eventually returned.  The gamma settings on takeoff were enough to clearly see once, especially above the clouds bathed in the moonlight.

[Reflected]

here are 2 screenshot taken 1h apart, not from the campaign, but they demonstrate the problem pretty clearly. Same day, same place, same weather, same angle, same full moon, 1 h apart. I reported this to ED in September.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Reflected

[ff4life4]

Thanks for explaining why it kept getting darker through the mission. Was still able to stay in formation all the way back to home (with a tiny bit of F5 camera cheating lol), but was tough! 

 

Really was a great start to the campaign. Flying above the clouds in the moonlight, in formation, with Eisenhowers’ D-Day Message playing in the headset, was truly something memorable. 

 

On to mission 2 soon!

[ErnieO]

Might be because I'm still playing on my laptop and graphics aren't quite up to snuff but at full gamma it's still pretty darn dark! Just DL this so don't know how many tries it's going to take on this first one. 

[JupiterJoe]

"It's like the inside of a f**king basketball." 

 

On my way home in mission 1 and the campaign already has a fantastically authentic feeling atmosphere.  Thanks Reflected for all your amazing work.  It really helps you appreciate how incredibly brave these men were.

[Sydy]

Hi @Reflected,

Thanks for the info.

Question: I am thinking about producing a film series of this campaign, just like the others, do you think is too much of a Spoiler if I put mission 0 (the intro)? Or would you prefer that I do not upload it and we keep it as a surprise?

Mission 01 took 1h45m and I am thinking to upload all of it. It was my first VR mission (I got a Varjo Aero) and now I am using OBS to record it doing a “real time” voice over. I am happy I did not die on the first day! Lol

Congratulations!

[Reflected]

@Sydy no problem you can upload it

[Sydy]

3 hours ago, Reflected said:

@Sydy no problem you can upload it

Thanks! I loved the intro!

Edited December 21, 2023 by Sydy

[average_pilot]

These lasts nights the Moon have been particularly bright on my neck of the woods and I keep remembering this thread.

When the Moon lighting was introduced it was pretty spot on in my opinion, but many people complained that it was too bright, perhaps people that are permanently trapped inside the artificial light dome of big cities. Eventually it was toned down quite a lot. Now to me it's exactly like wearing sun glasses at night. I wish it was re-adjusted again to better reflect real life light levels rather than what we users "feel is right".

About that period of darkness ED commented that it requires changes in the graphics engine to allow for two main light sources. Probably one of those things we won't see introduced until the switch to Vulcan.

[Reflected]

4 hours ago, average_pilot said:

These lasts nights the Moon have been particularly bright on my neck of the woods and I keep remembering this thread.

When the Moon lighting was introduced it was pretty spot on in my opinion, but many people complained that it was too bright, perhaps people that are permanently trapped inside the artificial light dome of big cities. Eventually it was toned down quite a lot. Now to me it's exactly like wearing sun glasses at night. I wish it was re-adjusted again to better reflect real life light levels rather than what we users "feel is right".

About that period of darkness ED commented that it requires changes in the graphics engine to allow for two main light sources. Probably one of those things we won't see introduced until the switch to Vulcan.

Oh I didn't know this. Indeed, without a graphic engine update the best would be to make it brighter by default, then.

[prometheus122]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:43 PM, Reflected said:

Oh I didn't know this. Indeed, without a graphic engine update the best would be to make it brighter by default, then.

In the UK full moon nights in the countryside are traditionally called the Parish lantern, you can literally walk home, through a wood from the pub with no torch (don’t ask how I know )

 

great campaign, only took me 8 attempts at first mission , my role in ww2 would be flying a desk…for sure Actually the house I live in was once owned by a solicitor who was a reserve RAF officer during the war, he was probably a desk pilot

 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by prometheus122

[Reflected]

40 minutes ago, sjebens said:

Until this bug is fixed, can the start time of the mission be moved up? Even with gamma all the way up I can hardly see anything and it's really ruining the first mission (I'm on a Quest 3).

I'm going to look at the files to see if I can figure out how to update them.

On another note, I'm not sure why but the outside sound is very low. I can hardly hear a plane taxi by, but if I choose something like Channel - Cold Start everything is fine. Am I going crazy or can campaigns change sound levels?

 

Campaigns can’t change sound levels. 
as for the timing I stand by point 4 in my first post. 

[Reflected]

So 

1) there is a bug with the DCS lighting engine. As I said many times, I already reported it to ED. If you want it fixed, don't tell me, you're preaching to the choir. Tell THEM. (so that I'm not the only one whining about it)

2) in real life pilots didn't have gamma controls, so it was as dark as in DCS with the bug and full gamma. Just read about Lt. Frascotti.

3) therefore, there is nothing for me to fix. If ED fixes their lighting engine, you'll be able to 'cheat' by cranking the gamma. 

4) just because people have opinions that differ from historical facts, I'm not gonna spend my time convincing each and every one of them. Sorry, I just don't have the time for that if I want to build and fix campaigns. History is history.

Edited February 3 by Reflected

[Reflected]

Or you could have spent the same effort posting this to ED, because at this moment I’m the only one telling them about this issue while everyone else is complaining to me, a guy with the same access to the DCS code as you: none. 
 

the mission timing is realistic. I’m not changing it.  There is a full moon. If a core ED module/ feature/ bug is substracting from that realism, the solution is not for me to make the mission more unrealistic as a workaround for playability but for ED to fix their stuff. 
 

read the relevant chapter in ‘Fighter group’ and you’ll learn what it was like to take off in total darkness. If you don’t believe the mission, that is. 
 

 

@[ED]Ben can you please give us an update on this bug, and whether the team is working on a fix? Thank you. 

Edited February 3 by Reflected

[Reflected]

In the meantime here’s an enlightening (no pun intended) reading for everyone:

“In a break with normal operations, a red flare spluttered from the control tower high into the dark and wet. At once, the 486th’s P-51s huffed and barked and spun themselves to life in a gratifying staccato growl that soon steadied to a comforting thrum. A few minutes later the squadron’s aircraft began their awkward, waddling taxi to the takeoff funnel. All pretense of order came apart in the dark and some flights failed to assemble while tagalongs joined others; few of them made it to their proper place in line. Fahrenwald found himself at the head of the entire mess as part of a three-ship. According to the brief, they were supposed to take off in four-ship formations:

By the darting flames of their engine exhausts I could make out the dim identifying letters painted on the fuselage of each ship. So Pappy Gignac and McKibben and I were together, and we three were hogging the slot reserved for the Colonel’s flight. That, however, was tough titty, because it was too late now to monkey around trying to get organized. We ran up our engines and it was time to go, and I didn’t want to push that throttle at all. My instruments glowered greenly at me like the winking, blinking, luminous eyes of a whole pack of pussycats racked up in a blacked-out bookcase.

But they did go. With their throttles pushed up, the pilots of the first three Mustangs felt their aircraft bump along the muddy grass on a northeasterly heading as they picked up speed. Gignac’s mount hit something slippery that spit him off to the side. Fahrenwald, on McKibben’s wing, jockeyed his throttle to stay in position until the two of them finally lifted off. They both drew a collective breath as they raised their landing gear and put precious altitude between themselves and the ground. Behind them Martin Corcoran swung his four-ship into takeoff position.4 A string of lights intended as a takeoff aid had been torn away, presumably by Gignac, Fahrenwald or McKibben. Without the lights, and failing to check his compass, Corcoran aligned the flight too far to the right. Not noting the mistake, he advanced his throttle and started his takeoff roll. To his right, Donald “Red” Whinnem rolled with him as did Robert Frascotti who was next in line to the right. Carleton “Bud” Fuhrman was on Frascotti’s right wing. Unknown to any of them, Charles Griffiths had mistakenly tacked onto Fuhrman’s right wing and was also taking off. Corcoran’s four-ship was actually a five-ship. Meanwhile, Fahrenwald tucked himself tightly to McKibben’s wing, anxious not to get separated in the murk. “We banked into an easy turn to port,” Fahrenwald recalled, “and I glanced back to the field and all of a damned sudden a horrible, billowing explosion half-blinded me, and I knew automatically what it was: a Mustang, a maximum load of high-octane and one of the boys, all gone to glory in a puff of flame.” Below Fahrenwald and McKibben, every man on the ground gaped horror-stricken into the brilliant pyre. Robert Frascotti was dead. On the errant heading, Corcoran’s flight hurtled at high speed to the edge of the airfield where a new control tower was under construction. Corcoran and Whinnem passed to the left of it as they lifted airborne. Fuhrman passed it to the right. Further right, one of Griffith’s wheels struck a pole on a nearby volleyball court but he was unhurt. Frascotti, in the center of the flight, smashed into the tower with a blinding yellow-white blast.“

no gamma slider, no refly button. 

[Sulaco]

First mission was really challenging but totally fine once you cranked the gamma, looked good too. Gave me a completely new appreciation for the flying these guys did, "Parish lantern" or not, no idea how they pulled off what they did. Just finished the 3rd mission, very challenging as well but really rewarding. Fantastic work Reflected.

[Rudel_chw]

27 minutes ago, sjebens said:

If I fixed the file ...

 

You would be breaking the terms of the DCS Limited-use License (point 3.1.b)  ... I can understand your frustration, but antagonizing the developer is not a good approach in my opinion. 

Changing the mission time is probably not as easy as you believe it to be: the briefing would have to be updated, some of the voiceovers would have to be redone, some of the text messages, and so on. Urging ED to fix this bug would probably be a better approach, I'm sure they have already seen all this fuzz ... hopefully they will fix it soon.

[Reflected]

6 hours ago, sjebens said:

"no gamma slider, no refly button" NO QUEST 3 (and from what other people say, other devices) MAKING THE MISSION SO DARK IT'S UNPLAYABLE.

Post all the "it was dark back then" bits you want - they have no relation to the reality of playing the mission on a Quest 3. I want the mission to be realistic down to the time also, but not to the extent of making it unplayable. What good is realism if you can't fly the mission? Maybe you're so defensive because you wrote it and can't bear to have to change it, no matter the reality of the situation. I find it hard to believe you're the developer and not someone trying to troll. Amazingly, you have no wish at all for paying customers to be able to use what they paid for. This is the same thing as having a number in a field in your mission that makes DCS crash, but instead of changing the number to something you know will fix it (and not hurt the playability at all), you just wipe your hands of it by saying "I guess it's EDs fault that the command is making it crash - talk to them".

Incredible.

 

Dude you're way out of line. How the heck can you make a mission NOT crash from within the editor?! Are you kidding me? How many times do I have to tell you that I have the same access to DCS as you? 

I could repeat what I wrote a 100 times before but you're either not reading them or don't care. The only thing the lighting bug affects is that you cannot cheat in case the mission is too dark for you. Period.

I'm not defensive because I wrote it. I didn't write it. It's what happened 80 years ago.

Hey why don't I move D-Day H-hour to 12 noon on a sunny cloudless day? Or next time the P-51 is bugged I'll just change it into a Spitfire campaign. So easy, yeah?

Please send me your paypal address, I'll give you your money back. I'm out of this conversation.

Edited February 3 by Reflected

[BIGNEWY]

Folks please keep the feedback constructive, I have asked the team to take a look at the moon light. 

thank you

[sjebens]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:31 PM, Rudel_chw said:

 

You would be breaking the terms of the DCS Limited-use License (point 3.1.b)  ... I can understand your frustration, but antagonizing the developer is not a good approach in my opinion. 

Changing the mission time is probably not as easy as you believe it to be: the briefing would have to be updated, some of the voiceovers would have to be redone, some of the text messages, and so on. Urging ED to fix this bug would probably be a better approach, I'm sure they have already seen all this fuzz ... hopefully they will fix it soon.

That's the reason I was asking instead of just doing it. I have asked DCS to fix it, but until they do, I'd like to play what I paid for.

I understand the images showing the times and maybe some of the text messages wouldn't line up, that's why it's a workaround - it doesn't need to be perfect but at least you can play it.

The developer was going on and on about not budging because of 'historical accuracy', but he has no issue with using the Henley airfield to stand in for Debden even though the map, etc is no longer correct. I understand sometimes you have to work with what you've got, and that's all I was asking.

Anyway, this is a moot point now since I've invested the time to fix it myself. It plays perfectly.

Edited February 5 by sjebens

[BIGNEWY]

Folks again please keep the feedback constructive, as mentioned we have asked the team to take another look at the report. 

- rude post deleted

[OLD CROW]

Quote from a post written on saturday:

@[ED]Ben can you please give us an update on this bug, and whether the team is working on a fix? Thank you. 

This is a prove this bug has been already reported time back. This a direct status report question to a direct staff member because this is an already reported bug.

 

22 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

as mentioned we have asked the team to take another look at the report.

Yours it's only a vague invitation to them to fix or not the bug or even to answer or not to the question. Who's been rude here with the customers?   

[BIGNEWY]

40 minutes ago, OLD CROW said:

Yours it's only a vague invitation to them to fix or not the bug or even to answer or not to the question. Who's been rude here with the customers?   

You replied to a comment that was rude and your reply post was hidden in the process. If you have a moderation query please use a PM in the future. Please do not derail this thread.

As for the report, it is in our system and as I have already mentioned it will be looked at when the team have time. 

thank you 

 

[Nealius]

"It can't be that bad. I'll max the gamma to 3.5 and turn on my black dot labels."

Oh it was bad. I survived and made it home, but it was not a particularly enjoyable experience. Not because of the darkness, but because of the combination of darkness, clouds, and the Mustang's horribly unreliable attitude indicator that tells me I'm more or less level when I am in fact 30 degrees nose down with 60 degrees of bank. Nearly CFIT'ed twice. Nearly mid-aired thrice on account of the AI suddenly going from 280mph to 150mph in the clouds. 

"Nice of them to turn their lights on. Wait.....those are not lights, they're exhaust flames!" as a silver zebra screams past my canopy from a sudden deceleration.

I think the killer here, though, is the known dawn/dusk bug where everything goes pitch black. This caused my black dot labels to be useless, totally losing the formation in the soup. Decided to call it quits by climbing through a break in the clouds and heading north. By sheer luck I ended up a few miles behind the group on RTB and managed to land in one piece. Definitely not an experience I want to repeat. Darkness, I can deal. Clouds, I can deal. Darkness AND clouds, plus the pitch-black transition bug, is the kiss of death.

 

Edited February 8 by Nealius