not planned Easy/Medium/Hard/Realistic refueling options.

[TonyRS]

Like many other players of DCS; I found learning to AAR in my F-18 extremely difficult. Everyone told me it was hard to do, the most difficult thing in DCS and that ‘coloured’ my attitude to learning to do it. I found it all too easy to just give up, justifying my failure with the excuse that every one says it is very hard to do.
It was not until I actually decided, in my own mind, ‘Damn it… I’m going to master it regardless of what others say’ that I started to make progress.
It took me a little over a week of concentrated effort but thereafter I seem to have ‘cracked it’. I made a youtube video of my first full up take of fuel in AAR.
Bear in mind, two weeks before making the video I could NOT even connect to the basket!!!

Some things that helped me may help you too…
1. Review your control curves - You need very fine control of pitch, roll and throttle.
2.Take your time; until you get good.
3. As you approach to connect you should be within 1 or 2 knots of Tankers IAS and you shouldn’t be changing your IAS by more than 1 or 2 knots to stay connected.
4. Don’t get into PIO by overdoing pitch control. Often you are moving your Velocity Vector NO MORE than the thickness of the line that represents your wings on the Velocity Vector.
5. Think more in terms of applying pressure to your control stick in the required direction to make corrections in pitch and roll needed, rather than actually ‘moving’ your control stick. Adjustments in pitch, roll and power are usually TINY!

Had there been an AAR ‘easy mode’ I’m sure I would never have put in the effort to learn how to do it. I assure you, if I can do it, anyone can. But, it does require some time and effort.

Shortly after making the video (above) - I thought I’d see if I could also do this at night! I was pleasantly surprised that, with the skills just acquired, it was really no more difficult. Here’s the proof…

Hope the above may be of help to someone at least 

[PhantomHans]

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Good luck with that. They’ve stated repeatedly over many years that they aren’t going to do this. You’re wasting your breath on a well worn topic. 

They better get used to hearing it then.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

They better get used to hearing it then.

You’re wasting your time. Nothing has been said here that hasn’t been said already. If you put this effort into learning AAR you’d be able to do it by now. 

[PhantomHans]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You’re wasting your time. Nothing has been said here that hasn’t been said already. If you put this effort into learning AAR you’d be able to do it by now. 

Every time I attempt AAR and wind up frustrated I am going to bring the issue up.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Every time I attempt AAR and wind up frustrated I am going to bring the issue up.

You’ll be frustrated every time until it clicks and you get it. Then you’ll wonder what all the fuss was about. 

[PhantomHans]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

You’ll be frustrated every time until it clicks and you get it. Then you’ll wonder what all the fuss was about. 

The programming to fix this could have been done by now.  Imagine how much easier your life and ED's life could be if they'd just do the clicks required for the fix?

[Tippis]

56 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Good luck with that. They’ve stated repeatedly over many years that they aren’t going to do this.

That's not actually what they've said, no. You even quoted it yourself so you should know what they said.

You know what else they said? That this is the wishlist forum and if you don't like an idea, you don't need to post…

Can you instead try to actually make an argument for or against the ideas being posted? If it's so well-worn a topic, you should have some pretty solid ones to offer, right?

  

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You’ll be frustrated every time until it clicks and you get it.

You realise that this is the best argument in favour of creating teaching aids, right? You're describing the most detrimental and backwards learning environment possible, and asking the OP to just accept this horrible state of affairs as the only way it ever could be… for no clear reason.

Edited April 10 by Tippis

[BIGNEWY]

29 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You’re wasting your time. Nothing has been said here that hasn’t been said already. If you put this effort into learning AAR you’d be able to do it by now. 

please do not gate keep, people are welcome to discuss their ideas,

its ok not to agree, its ok to share your wishes, 

just be nice to each other

thanks

 

[freehand]

What is going on in here is this a wind up ?

[markturner1960]

I think there is really only opinions here, no right or wrong. Personally, the sense of satisfaction I get everytime I nail a refuel is immense and while I had a very frustrating time learning and getting there, I am glad I did. Its not easy in reality and not in DCS. The thing is, its all about flying formation and flying good formation is the basis of ALL military jet flying......So being able to do this will pay dividends for you in any multiplayer situation....Do you fly multiplayer at all? 

DCS is a study level sim and within the constraints of it being a PC program, its pretty good. As has been said, its easy to get a lot of mileage out of it without ever going near a tanker, but you could apply all your arguments about "easy modes" to any of the weapons systems and procredures....it just would not make sense...You have War thunder for that. Its good there are challenging things in the sim, try learning the F14 radar for a start and then how to employ it properly. 

I think if you just plug away, you wil get it fairly soon and the satisfaction will be immense, trust me! As far as making a dev option, then as they have said, its not a priority. Plenty more important stuff that needs sorting out before that I fear......

[Exorcet]

7 minutes ago, markturner1960 said:

You have War thunder for that.

That's not really accurate. I don't play War Thunder, but I don't think it has AAR at all. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Assists don't diminish realism or challenge. An AAR assist isn't going to take away AAR, and no one is asking for AAR to go away. If you want a simplified experience or just want to skip refueling entirely, there is unlimited fuel. If you want to experience AAR but find it too challenging, need some help practicing, or want a fast forward button when testing large complex missions that you build, that is where an assist comes in.

Let's also not forget the "easy modes" included in DCS already like takeoff and rudder assist which are intended by the devs to make full fideility modules more accessible. Assists are part of DCS by design.

  

15 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Well we don’t even know what the hypothetical assist would do or how it works. But unlimited fuel is already in the game. AFAIK you can AAR connect with it enabled. So it’s not an impediment to practice during a mission. The effect of changing fuel weight while you’re tanking is minor or unnoticeable. 

There are no shortage of concepts for how the assist would work. We don't have a set in stone feature only because we haven't gone past the proposal stage.

Unlimited fuel isn't a training aid and removes the fuel experience entirely, which goes against the point if you want to try to include realism in your sim experience. It's not a solution, and this has been explained many times before.

The change in aircraft performance from fuel weight while tanking is small, but much larger is the change in weight throughout the mission, especially if you're considering things like g limits, optimum cruise, aircraft settings (CAT I vs CAT III for example), etc. Unlimited fuel takes that away.

Edited April 10 by Exorcet

[Yeti42]

I honestly think there is no harm in making an easy option for inflight refueling, as long as mission editors are able to enforce the option not to on servers.  I doubt any major servers  would allow it anyway. I struggled with it to start with and eventually confronted my daemons, it took about 2 weeks and 5 hours practice to get there, not unreasonable I thought.  For me, making it easy rather defeats the point, but I can understand people not wanting to deal with it on a mission. 

Edited April 10 by Yeti42

[markturner1960]

Never played it so would not know, I just meant it was a way more gamey, arcade type of thing, where there is not the system knowledge etc required. I am not saying there should not be an assist, (in an ideal world, sure, why not..) I just saying they are not going to do it anytime soon, so may as well knuckle down and practice and it will feel so good when he masters it. 

Edited April 10 by markturner1960

[Aernov]

51 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Every time I attempt AAR and wind up frustrated I am going to bring the issue up.

Just don't forget to actually watch/read tutorials, try and practice formation flying and AAR in between bringing it up. I know people who learned to refuel upside-down, I've heard about people refueling upside-down with an X-Box controller, but I don't know anyone who tried and couldn't learn AAR. So, try, bring the issue up, try again and so on, soon enough there won't be an issue to bring up.

[scoobie]

59 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Every time I attempt AAR and wind up frustrated I am going to bring the issue up.

Uhm... I just want to point out that in this case you don't really need any helpers - this is exactly what you need do to get the thing cracked yourself.

The only, really only trick is to do it with the right schedule: every day, no days off (if only possible), 30 minutes or so at a time - only to the point when you get frustrated enough, not a minute longer. Getting beyond that point is totally fruitless, there's no reward for torturing oneself, cerebellum needs certain time to make new connections, if it didn't, it would be cancer.

Then come here and bring the issue up, no problem as far as I'm concerned. And then just forget about AAR for a day. Just don't try the typical "time compression" (e.g. single day for 10 hours and I'll get there, I don't need days etc.), everyone thinks they're gonna trick the system (I thought that, too) and that is guaranteed not to work.

After a few days or 2 weeks at the longest, you won't write anything more here. Don't ask me how I know.

Yeah, I know you think I'm being "oh so funny", but I'm not, talk to TonyRS about it (his post with fantastic videos is above).

EDIT: Oh, heck, Aernov beat me to it!  

Edited April 10 by scoobie

[PhantomHans]

Maybe I wasn't clear.  I didn't wish for advice or youtube tutorials.  I wished for an easier AAR experience in game. 

 

So thanks for all the tutorials and advice I guess.  That would be like wishing for an F-22 and getting an F-105, but what are wish lists for amirite?

Edited April 10 by PhantomHans

[t1mb0b]

oh groan, not this again, 5 pages of it.

Please ED we do not need the sim dumbing down for people who cant be bothered to put the time in.

The sense of satisfaction in A/A refuelling is worth the time and practice, what satisfaction are you going to get by achieving it with 'make it so easy that I can do it first time = 1', none that's how much, why bother with DCS at all?

The F5 hasn't got a velocity vector in the HUD and I can't fly a decent circuit unless I put hours of practice in, can you make it easier for me? you see how ridiculous it's going to get if everything has to have a 'can't be bothered' setting?

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, markturner1960 said:

I just meant it was a way more gamey, arcade type of thing

I’m not aware of any game no matter how arcadish that has helpers on the level of actually playing the game for you. So what’s being asked for here just isn’t done in games at all. At that point they wouldn’t be games anymore they’d be videos. Key word in interactive entertainment is interactive. 

[Jackjack171]

14 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Maybe I wasn't clear.  I didn't wish for advice or youtube tutorials.  I wished for an easier AAR experience in game. 

 

So thanks for all the tutorials and advice I guess.  That would be like wishing for an F-22 and getting an F-105, but what are wish lists for amirite?

 

Well, that clears that up! Thanks for letting us know that you have no intention to do it, you want it done for you...got it!

[SharpeXB]

25 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Unlimited fuel isn't a training aid and removes the fuel experience entirely

Sure it can be a training aid. AFAIK you can still attempt refueling with this enabled. So if you’re not confident in your AAR ability but want to fly a mission with it, you can still practice and if not successful you haven’t spoiled the flight. If you want the broader experience of managing the fuel then that’s a reason to learn AAR. 

[Tippis]

36 minutes ago, scoobie said:

Uhm... I just want to point out that in this case you don't really need any helpers - this is exactly what you need do to get the thing cracked yourself.

And the counterpoint is that you don't need to get the thing cracked yourself if the game provided the kinds of helper systems that it provides for numerous other “difficult” activities. Having to crack anything yourself is bad design — it's the ultimate proof that there is a gap that needs filling. Giving the player a ladder of difficulty to climb rather than a sheer cliff means that they can learn something rather than having to crack it all in one go.

“Need” is, again, not particularly relevant to anything anyway. We don't need bugfixes. We get them anyway because they make the game better. Same with helpers for refuelling. Same as with the helpers for landing that we have. Same as helpers for weapons delivery that we have. Same as helpers for controlled level flight that we have. Same as the myriad of helpers we have for every aspect of the game… except AAR for no reason that anyone has been able to cogently and coherently articulate.

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m not aware of any game no matter how arcadish that has helpers on the level of actually playing the game for you

There are quite a few that do.

In the sim genre, there aren't really any that play the game, but plenty of sims who offer exactly the kind of helpers and hints that the OP and other threads on the topic have asked for: UI overlays, “sticky” or nudging position controls, various levels of control automation. The racing genre is shock full of them. The flight sim genre less so, but that's more of a sample bias problem.

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure it can be a training aid.

No. Because fuel is not a factor. Unlimited fuels helps less with learning to AAR than unlimited ammo does.

Or rather, sure. Unlimited fuel can be a training aid, but for AFAC. That is not the same thing as AAR, and you should probably try not to confuse the two.

21 minutes ago, t1mb0b said:

Please ED we do not need the sim dumbing down for people who cant be bothered to put the time in.

Why not? Why can't they play the game the way they want it? What about those who just can't put the time in — not because they can't be bothered but because it simply isn't available? What about those who can be bothered and have the time, but who just want it not to be a sheer cliff face that goes against one of core design principles of the game? What about those who just want their time not to be wasted on a needlessly and pointlessly obtuse process that could be made much better and more efficient?

Edited April 10 by Tippis

[PhantomHans]

19 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

Well, that clears that up! Thanks for letting us know that you have no intention to do it, you want it done for you...got it!

Honestly having met the lovely community here I would be more than happy to accept a refund and go play War Thunder instead.  In fact I really do regret having given DCS a try now thanks to the people here.

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Honestly having met the lovely community here I would be more than happy to accept a refund and go play War Thunder instead.  In fact I really do regret having given DCS a try now thanks to the people here.

You would get the same reaction with this attitude in any game or sport or activity.

[Tippis]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

You would get the same reaction with this attitude in any game or sport or activity.

No, most games, sports and activities actually welcome new people and provide means to ease them into various technical aspects of whatever it is they're doing. They evolve and improve and don't force people to waste time just because it's traditional.

Here, most such accommodations are met with pure vitriol and shouted down as “dumbing down” the game for no reason that the detractors can articulate.

[Roosterfeet]

It would honestly be nice to have built in simulator tools to modify parameters in a running mission like the Olympus mod is trying to implement. Altering fuel states would be extremely handy for many situations, be it for learning, avoiding a frustration, or working around AI refusing to cooperate.

The more control they can give to single players and server admins the better. People tend to only look at DCS according to how they engage with it. Then they get defensive when someone wants to do it differently. But there are many ways to engage with DCS and no "right way." 

Edited April 10 by Roosterfeet