correct as-is Sudden G-LOC effect

[Lixma 06]

I've watched video of the new F-16's G-LOC effect but where that one is a gradual fade out the Spitfire's is sudden; like flicking a light switch.

Spit gloc.trk

[Grundar]

That was graduated in the video, just less time in that grey out area than the F-16 or modern fighters where, I believe, G-suits are modeled or at least incorporated into the G-loc parameters.   At high speed and in a dive in the Spit it is very easy to flip it instantly on it's back and force an instantaneous blackout.  The graduation is present as I spent a fair bit of time learning to ride it in the Big Show campaign

[Lixma 06]

1 hour ago, Grundar said:

The graduation is present as I spent a fair bit of time learning to ride it in the Big Show campaign

We've all flown the Spitfire; a lot. Try it - it's been changed. There's no longer anything to ride.

[MAD-MM]

Experienced the same yesterday as @Lixma 06, definitley new behaviour with the sudden blackout.
Was testing little bit around only in MP, after i experienced this in a dogfight against a P51.
Not sure by what it is caused, because most of the time still have same behaviour like before the patch where first the FOV narrows the gradually the Blackout arrives.
My believe is rolling and turning does the trick, but as i said not sure....
 

 

Edited April 11, 2024 by MAD-MM

[Lixma 06]

Ah...so it's not Spitfire specific. Thanks for the vid, MM.

[Grundar]

3 hours ago, Lixma 06 said:

We've all flown the Spitfire; a lot. Try it - it's been changed. There's no longer anything to ride.

Wasn't trying to imply you didn't know the Spit, sorry if it came across that way, not my intention. Also, there is a new patch I was unaware of.  I  will update, check it out and let you know, will compare it to the F-16 as well.  Seems like it is an unintended change though, perhaps as part of that change to g-loc effect in the F-16.

 

Edit: Yep the Spitfire still does the usual snap roll straight to blackout that is fine.  You are correct in that it now does a slight grey hazing of the FOV and then straight to blackout, occurred with the same speed yours did which is quite the big change from the update prior (I took it up for a quick spin before I tried the new update and there is definitely a difference).   

Edit 2: The F-16 does the initial fov change graying in as opposed to the black fov tunneling it used to be for g effects, but it also has a further stage of where the colours start to also fade to grey, this was a missed stage when i tried it on the Spit.  Is this option missing from the WW2 birds? Perhaps g-suit modeling is what provides this further stage (if g-suits are modeled, or at least factored in).

Edited April 11, 2024 by Grundar
Update with findings

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all, 

we will investigate. 

But it is important to do a G warm up, dont be pulling to many G's to quickly, watch for the grey out for the indication of black out and G lock

thank you 

[peachmonkey]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi all, 

we will investigate. 

But it is important to do a G warm up, dont be pulling to many G's to quickly, watch for the grey out for the indication of black out and G lock

thank you 

hi, @BIGNEWY, thank you for the hint on the G warm up, it's exciting that we have it in the war birds as well. 

However, I have couple of questions:
1) how long do we do the G warm up for?  I've seen some posts where it's couple of 180 turns at 4G, or a sustained 4G for 20 seconds.

2) how long does the warm up last, i.e. how long after the "warm up the training + dog fight" the warm up goes away?

It'd be great if you clarify the above, for all warbird lovers indeed.

 

Edited April 11, 2024 by peachmonkey

[motoadve]

I like the new G lock much better, thank you, you cannot game the game as much as before, plenty of grey out time before a blackout, its sudden, after grey out, which is more realistic, its good.

Good to hear about G lock warm up, but what about G lock fatiguing the pilot out after a few times of repeated G locks, its reversed, pilot should fatigue and grey out earlier, when tired,  hope this gets implemented.

Also negative Gs don't seem to affect the current pilot.

[Lixma 06]

1 hour ago, Grundar said:

Wasn't trying to imply you didn't know the Spit, sorry if it came across that way, not my intention.

No worries, my snark was un-called for. The Spit (and 109, and probably others) do have the same loss of colour as the F-16 (check my video), just not the gradual darkening/tunnel effect. Here's a vid I stole from Reddit for comparison. 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2024 by Lixma 06

[BIGNEWY]

51 minutes ago, peachmonkey said:

hi, @BIGNEWY, thank you for the hint on the G warm up, it's exciting that we have it in the war birds as well. 

However, I have couple of questions:
1) how long do we do the G warm up for?  I've seen some posts where it's couple of 180 turns at 4G, or a sustained 4G for 20 seconds.

2) how long does the warm up last, i.e. how long after the "warm up the training + dog fight" the warm up goes away?

It'd be great if you clarify the above, for all warbird lovers indeed.

 

 

I will try to find out, some info below however

 30 sec with 4G for warm-up and then you can sustain 6G

[peachmonkey]

3 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

I will try to find out, some info below however

 30 sec with 4G for warm-up and then you can sustain 6G

thank you, @BIGNEWY!

[MAD-MM]

5 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

I will try to find out, some info below however

 30 sec with 4G for warm-up and then you can sustain 6G

are sure it is sustain 6 G?  think 109 and Spit was 5,5g in the past only p51 6G?
was testing little bit around, when you do a spiral downwards with farley consistent turn and g load around 6G-5,5G will start to narrow FOV like in the F16 Video (picture attachment)

but it takes a while, when you pull out of a dive goes up 7,4 G looks like the Pilot is not at any case of strain nearly clear picture, when you go above 7,5 G suddenly blackout.
Not even closely have the feeling or visual presentation u pulled at that moment 7,5G as it was in the past...
Think it is more problem of the presentation of the G-Lock. Look closely the Video from Liam again us see 7,5G and boom dark.
Takes to long to get FOV narrow or grey dark picture.

Attached a Track

WOLF_PACK_US_WWII_DYNAMIC_BASE_CAPTURE_v5.1.1U-20240411-151623.trk

[BIGNEWY]

There is a difference between having a G suit and not having one, but the effect is universal, not per airframe. 

If you are starting to grey out and starting to go black out you should ease off the pull. 

I have asked the team to review the sudden black out. 

thanks

[NineLine]

12 hours ago, Lixma 06 said:

I've watched video of the new F-16's G-LOC effect but where that one is a gradual fade out the Spitfire's is sudden; like flicking a light switch.

Spit gloc.trk 540.07 kB · 4 downloads

Ok, I only reviewed this track so far, and I don't think that I saw much of an issue, I mean the screen does grey and then a short time later you are G-loced, I will ask if its expected to be more gradual into that, but as I have never personally passed out from High Gs I will need to dig deeper. Luckily we have an aerobatics pilot on staff

[Lixma 06]

12 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I will ask if its expected to be more gradual into that

It's been gradual since forever; it's only in this patch that it's now like switching off the light. 

14 minutes ago, NineLine said:

but as I have never personally passed out from High Gs

Same! But seeing the difference between the Spit and the F-16 makes me think they can't both be correct. 

[NineLine]

It does seem like a little too sudden to be natural, and I hate comparing the F-16 and Spit so directly, but I will see what I can dig up on how the system is set up and how WIP it still is.

 

 

[NineLine]

So chatted with the team some more on how it works, did some more testing myself and even talked to Mr Grey about his experiences prepping for a display and if he had ever G-loc'ed.

So the current system, even for WWII requires a warm-up, even in WWII. Now this doesn't mean you need to do a special maneuver before combat because you don't always know when you are going into combat, you need to ease into your first half-turn. So basically instead of going hard on the G's enter the turn 3-4Gs for about a half turn then ease into your max turn from there. 

I reflew the first track here using this method, although maybe not as smooth as I would have liked:

For the sudden blackout, per Nick's experience he has G-Loc'ed twice he said it was 100% instant. His routine for warming up for a show is this:

Quote

 

Prior to every Airshow I go out back and start with 3 G soft wing overs 

Then build up to 4 for two or three manoeuvres then 6 to see how my eyes behave. Then fly the routine at 4-5 for safety

 

I will check out other tracks here soon. Thanks!

[motoadve]

Thanks for checking this out, I like it more how it is now,  IMHO is more realistic with the sudden blackout, what we need later on is having a fatigued model of the pilot if he pulls many Gs time after time in a short period, also negative Gs needs to be modelled, I think this is a move is the right direction.

[Grundar]

Some great feedback and info in this thread.  Looks like i'm going to have to be more cautious in combat maneuvers, which adds a new challenge, especially in heated dogfights.  More realism is better imo, especially for the WW2 stuff which I enjoy greatly.  Also going to have to upgrade my quite old graphics card so I see these same effects lol.

Edited April 12, 2024 by Grundar

[Lixma 06]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

For the sudden blackout, per Nick's experience he has G-Loc'ed twice he said it was 100% instant. 

This is from the news letter....

Quote

G effect improvements. Loss of color, tunnel vision, and black out have been adjusted and all happen over a greater time period. 

There is no longer any tunnel vision effect flying the Spit (or the 109, Su-27, Sabre, Mig-15 etc) even after a 'warm up'. Until yesterday's patch there was.

I think what's happened is that the new G-LOC code for the F-16 has accidentally removed the graduated tunnel vision for every other aircraft.

If that's not the case then which of these is realistic? Because they are not the same.

F-16

Su-27

Sabre

Mig-15

 

 

Edited April 12, 2024 by Lixma 06

[NineLine]

5 hours ago, motoadve said:

Thanks for checking this out, I like it more how it is now,  IMHO is more realistic with the sudden blackout, what we need later on is having a fatigued model of the pilot if he pulls many Gs time after time in a short period, also negative Gs needs to be modelled, I think this is a move is the right direction.

Fatigue is currently built into the model, so you should see less resistance to Gs as you continue on.

4 hours ago, Lixma 06 said:

There is no longer any tunnel vision effect flying the Spit

I clearly show in my video above that there is in the Spitfire. 

I am not saying it's impossible that there are not issues elsewhere BUT this is the Spitfire section and you should include tracks as well. Thanks.

Also in the examples above I did look at you are pulling well over the restricted G limits, so you need to understand that the G warm-up isn't so you can pull more Gs than allowed but rather that you can get up to the max G a pilot could pull. If you are blacking out you are pushing too hard, so much so that your pilot is immediately incapacitated. 

[Tom Kazansky]

28 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Fatigue is currently built into the model, so you should see less resistance to Gs as you continue on.

Same here.

Had a test in my Hornet.

Warmed up.

Made a first turn that looked exacly like this:

4 hours ago, Lixma 06 said:

F-16

 

And right after that the 2nd was like this one:

4 hours ago, Lixma 06 said:

Su-27

 

I get the idea of an instant black out, but hoped it does not look "that instant".

Maybe a very, very short period of a fast closing tunnel vision before would help to make it look more like a black out and not like  a bug in the game?

Edited April 12, 2024 by Tom Kazansky

[NineLine]

20 minutes ago, Tom Kazansky said:

Same here.

Had a test in my Hornet.

Warmed up.

Made a first turn that looked exacly like this:

And right after that the 2nd was like this one:

I get the idea of an instant black out, but hoped it does not look "that instant".

Maybe a very, very short period of a fast closing tunnel vision before would help to make it look more like a black out and not like  a bug in the game?

 

Guys, this is not helpful. One this is the Spitfire section, Two, you are showing examples like the Su-27 one above that is flying well over G limits. You still need to fly the aircraft within the limits of the aircraft... within reason of course. I mean the F-86 example above is just off the wall. So please, make reports in the section they belong in and make sure you are flying within realistic limitations of the pilot and aircraft you are reporting on. Thanks.

[Lixma 06]

Just to prove me wrong, Bogey Dope on Youtube (hope he doesn't mind me linking) did some tests of the new G-LOC in the F-16 and it shows without 'warm-up' the G-LOC effects match those of the Spitfire (and the rest).

 

4 hours ago, NineLine said:

You still need to fly the aircraft within the limits of the aircraft... within reason of course. I mean the F-86 example above is just off the wall.

I re-did the F-86 test and, after a warm-up, it's behaving as as advertised.

So it seems the new G-LOC effect is universal across all aircraft and the F-16 clip with which I was comparing the Spitfire et al was post-warm-up - something I should have checked beforehand.

Sorry for any undue panic!

e: question for the team (or anyone who knows) does the addition of a G-Suit alter the perceived effects of G-LOC (visual, auditory etc) or just the time taken for onset? (or both?)

Edited April 12, 2024 by Lixma 06