Multiple STT Sparrow support

[captain_dalan]

Hey guys, it's been a while and i'm not sure i got this right even the first time, but is the AWG-9 capable of supporting multiple Sparrow shots on the same target, as in fired in some sequence? Say, you fire the first one to make the bandit defensive and then, while the first one is still in flight and (presumably) guiding, you fire a second one, and then perhaps a third and so on... Will the first missile lose guidance? 

And does this work the same for pulse and pulse-doppler STT locks? 

[Rhrich]

STT: Single Target Track.

[SuperKermit]

According to the Heatblur manual the F-4 at least can:
"A second AIM-7 can be fired immediately at the same target, if desired, by releasing, then squeezing the trigger a second time- holding it on the second actuation."

https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/stores/air_to_air/aim_7.html

I would suspect that the same applies to the F-14.

[captain_dalan]

2 hours ago, Rhrich said:

STT: Single Target Track.

And my question is, can we fire twice on that track, without the first shot losing guidance. 

2 hours ago, SuperKermit said:

According to the Heatblur manual the F-4 at least can:
"A second AIM-7 can be fired immediately at the same target, if desired, by releasing, then squeezing the trigger a second time- holding it on the second actuation."

https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/stores/air_to_air/aim_7.html

I would suspect that the same applies to the F-14.

Still, the AWG9 has a lot of peculiarities. It would be nice if we could get a definitive answer. 

[Biggus]

In DCS, I've rippled six sparrows at a single target.  They all tracked fine.  My very rudimentary understanding is that it's only using CW radiation, but it's using it in two ways:

1.  Reflected CW radiation from the target is received by the guidance antenna in the missile.

2.  Pure CW radiation hitting waveguide antennas in the missile so that the guidance has a point of comparison between where the target is and where the missile is.

It shouldn't matter how many sparrows you launch from the same Tomcat - they're all looking at the same CW signal.  My CW antenna is radiating energy at one frequency and all my missiles are using that radiated energy in the same way, to know where they are and where the target is.

Shouldn't matter whether you're in PSTT or PDSTT.

Hopefully this helps, @captain_dalan.

[Naquaii]

On 5/5/2024 at 2:28 PM, captain_dalan said:

And my question is, can we fire twice on that track, without the first shot losing guidance. 

Still, the AWG9 has a lot of peculiarities. It would be nice if we could get a definitive answer. 

The limitation is that you need to be in STT, so single track. I've never seen a limit mentioned in any documentation about only being able to support one AIM-7 at the same target.

That's how we model it.

[captain_dalan]

@Biggus and @Naquaii thanks mates! That was the info i was looking for. Cheers! 

[falcon_120]

STT: Single Target Track.

Does people not read these days anymore?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Biggus]

13 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

@Biggus and @Naquaii thanks mates! That was the info i was looking for. Cheers! 

You're more than welcome.

10 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

Does people not read these days anymore?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ironically, your quoted response did not really answer the question.  He's not shooting at more than one track.  He's asking if he can fire a missile at it, then fire a second or third at the same track.  The answer is that he can.

[Tomcatter87]

In one of his videos, former Tomcat RIO Ward Carrol mentions that if you fired a second AIM-7 at the same target, the first one would be trashed. I think it's in his review of the second Gulf of Sidra incident. On the other hand, in the F-4 crews often fired more than one Sparrow, so that would have been a step back. So I'm not sure.

Here's a discussion about it

 

Edited May 7, 2024 by Tomcatter87

[Naquaii]

2 hours ago, Tomcatter87 said:

In one of his videos, former Tomcat RIO Ward Carrol mentions that if you fired a second AIM-7 at the same target, the first one would be trashed. I think it's in his review of the second Gulf of Sidra incident. On the other hand, in the F-4 crews often fired more than one Sparrow, so that would have been a step back. So I'm not sure.

Here's a discussion about it

 

 

Yeah, I've seen that. But that's also the only source I've ever heard that from. The information I have says the opposite and it wouldn't make sense either way.

[falcon_120]

Ironically, your quoted response did not really answer the question.  He's not shooting at more than one track.  He's asking if he can fire a missile at it, then fire a second or third at the same track.  The answer is that he can.

My quoted response does not answer OP question because it was clearly answered in the post following the quoted response.

I'm merely pointing that the person saying STT single target track did not read the OP question. As you clearly explain is possible to launch several Fox 1 on the same tracked target which WAS the OP question.



Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Biggus]

Apologies, my interpretation of your response was that you were quoting the correct response.

[draconus]

2 hours ago, Biggus said:

Apologies, my interpretation of your response was that you were quoting the correct response.

No apology is needed, the message was not clear whether it was the OP or Rhrich that should read more.

[Rhrich]

On 5/7/2024 at 9:16 AM, Biggus said:

You're more than welcome.

Ironically, your quoted response did not really answer the question.  He's not shooting at more than one track.  He's asking if he can fire a missile at it, then fire a second or third at the same track.  The answer is that he can.

I did. It's single target track. Not single missile track. 

The missiles passive antenna picks up the radar reflections from your aircrafts radar. That's the basis for all sarh. 

Newer versions do have some more tricks up their sleeve, might be that Mooch is referencing those. 

As far as I'm aware (but might be wrong, havent looked into it) DCS does not model anything that will stop you from using multiple 7s at once. 

Keep in mind though. If a missile at a certain point will have a 50% chance of kill you won't increase your kill chance to 75% if you fire two at once. At max you will increase your chance by a few percent (since failures aren't modelled). 

Well. At least thats the theory in the analog world, not sure how dcs model this. 

[WarthogOsl]

8 hours ago, Rhrich said:

Newer versions do have some more tricks up their sleeve, might be that Mooch is referencing those. 

I think Mooch said something about each Sparrow being on a different channel, and the radar would switch to the new channel when the second missile was fired, trashing the first.  But that just leads to the question...why would it do that?  I can't think of what advantage that added complexity would give you.

[RustBelt]

Say you and your wingman both fire Sparrows at a pair of targets. If they're on the same channel. what happens?

[WarthogOsl]

13 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Say you and your wingman both fire Sparrows at a pair of targets. If they're on the same channel. what happens?

But then wouldn't it make more sense to give each airplane in the flight it's own channel, and not change it per launch?  If both airplanes change channels every time they fire a Sparrow, they could easily end up on the same channel anyway.

[PhantomHans]

I thought Mooch's comment was confirmed to be incorrect some time ago?

I know that he was asked a couple times in the comments to explain his remark in detail but didn't bother to do so.

[The_Tau]

So F14 is able to guide 6 different 54s on 6 different targets at one time, but it would be unable to guide more than 1 sparrow at one time at single target? IDK about that one...  Sounds fishy ngl

[sLYFa]

Well there is a missile channel selector in the RIO cockpit. Maybe it was squadron SOP to switch channels everytime you launch, that would explain why the first missile looses guidance although the AWG-9 apparently has no limitation on how many Sparrows can be guided at once.

[WarthogOsl]

That would seem to require a conscious effort, whereas in the case Mooch was discussing, it didn't sound like anything like that happened.

FWIW, I don't recall anyone either confirming or correcting Mooch.  Dave Baranek would probably be a good guy to ask.  I actually have a neighbor who worked for Hughes on the AWG-9, so I could ask him...but not sure he will remember.

Edited May 23, 2024 by WarthogOsl

[Kageseigi]

12 hours ago, sLYFa said:

Well there is a missile channel selector in the RIO cockpit. Maybe it was squadron SOP to switch channels everytime you launch, that would explain why the first missile looses guidance although the AWG-9 apparently has no limitation on how many Sparrows can be guided at once.

In that case, would it technically be possible for multiple Tomcats to use the same channel, then one Tomcat guide another's Sparrow onto the target? Or perhaps it would only be possible in CW/flood mode?

[draconus]

5 hours ago, Kageseigi said:

In that case, would it technically be possible for multiple Tomcats to use the same channel, then one Tomcat guide another's Sparrow onto the target?

Not something they'd do IRL but yes, technically possible. Idk if CW/Flood use the same ability to change frequencies.