Mastering your First Phantom Flight

[Flia]

Hello

I have this stupid question: Is it correct to start with afcs on ? To achieve a smoother takeoff ?

[Elf1606688794]

13 minutes ago, Ghostmaker said:

Does anyone have this issue?

When started in instant action in free flight, why is my F4 Completly powered down and juat falls out of the sky?

 

When start from ramp - usually your all setup hot ready for take off.. my F4 is powered down??

Can anyone help please?

Move your throttle just a bit and your engines will power up.

I've noticed that when starting an instant action mission my engines will be at idle regardless of their actual physical position.

[Ghostmaker]

4 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

Move your throttle just a bit and your engines will power up.

I've noticed that when starting an instant action mission my engines will be at idle regardless of their actual physical position.

Ill give it ago, i also sat waiting for alignment for about 10/15 mins from cold start, when all ready to taxi  i applied slight throttle and when i lowered throttle the jet cut out. Is this normal?

[Elf1606688794]

14 minutes ago, Ghostmaker said:

when all ready to taxi  i applied slight throttle and when i lowered throttle the jet cut out.

I haven't noticed that.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

59 minutes ago, Ghostmaker said:

powered down??

Do you have HOTAS synchronisation at mission start enabled in the main DCS settings?

[Ghostmaker]

4 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Do you have HOTAS synchronisation at mission start enabled in the main DCS settings?

How do i check this? All my other jets work. F15C and fa18C just when i load up the phantom its awsome on startup but then shut down when i pulled the throttle back on taxi

 

Left and right throttle are set joystick is setup all axix only. Rudder peddals and break are setup flaps and air break setup. The rest is a learning curve.

 

Thought i must have done or not donrle something but i did aito startup.

[Victory205]

Please ask your free flight spawn issue question in the Bugs and Problems sub forum. You’ll get a quicker response and help others who may be having the same issue.

AFCS should be off on the ground. If you are trying to learn to fly the thing, keep it off in the air too. 

Takeoffs are pretty simple, are you using the recommended technique described in the OP here and in the manual?

ROLL AUG off for maneuvering flight in the air, reasons are similar to the Tomcat. It makes departure resistance worse.

There are a few pilots reporting that they have spun the Phantom. I have my doubts, because the soft winged slatted E model isn’t prone to spinning, even intentionally. It will enter an oscillatory departure, but it isn’t a developed spin. Do you gents know how to recognize a spin? 

[Ghostmaker]

I cant even fly it in the air when i start even free flight my engines are off.????

[gulredrel]

20 hours ago, TOViper said:

Hey gulredrel!

If you have been on the ground, and moved the slats/flaps switch from "OUT & DOWN" position to "OUT" position (which is one step up), then both the slats and the flaps do not change their positions, the will stay in "OUT" and "DOWN". Only when you set the switch to "NORM" position, slats & flaps change to "IN" and "UP".

If you'd go for the training lessons, both the switch AND the indications are being checked by the trigger logic in most cases.
So if a lesson requires you to set slats & flaps to OUT & DOWN, but only set the switch to "OUT", the lesson usually will not continue.

You can read about this system behavior here: https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/cockpit/pilot/left_console/wall.html#nose-gear-down

Just if that was the problem at your first try ...

 

Thanks, yeah, in today's attempt on the ground the flaps moved as intended with the buttons I've assigned.

Currently no time to investigate and actually go flying, being busy with work and real life Hopefully weekend will be better.

[Victory205]

Before posting non-flying questions in this thread, please check here for answers to common issues-
 

 

[Nealius]

After my first flight I notice a tendency for the nose to overshoot neutral when neutralizing/unloading/easing off aft pressure on the stick, acting as if I shoved the stick full forward. This is most noticeable when unloading G before rolling wings level after a turn. The only way I have (so far) found to avoid this pitch overshoot is to keep some G on the jet while rolling level, which I always thought was a big no-no in older jets ("fly the cross").

Is this intended behavior, or is something whack with my stick calibration? (FFB off, 20cm extension)

Edited May 24, 2024 by Nealius

[reemit0772]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

After my first flight I notice a tendency for the nose to overshoot neutral when neutralizing/unloading/easing off aft pressure on the stick, acting as if I shoved the stick full forward. This is most noticeable when unloading G before rolling wings level after a turn. The only way I have (so far) found to avoid this pitch overshoot is to keep some G on the jet while rolling level, which I always thought was a big no-no in older jets ("fly the cross").

Is this intended behavior, or is something whack with my stick calibration? (FFB off, 20cm extension)

 

I have noticed the same, and I am also perplexed. 

[HawkEXO]

What a great read!  I spent the last couple days just flying her.  Lots of approaches, experimenting with all the navigation instruments, watching the needles and evaluating various performances.  I'm only now starting my weapons training.

I can't overstate how much I enjoy flying this aircraft. It has so much character and it's both a beast and a sweetheart.  Heatblur has really created something special here.

Reading Victory's post really captures all the things that stood out in my first few flights, but it also provided quite a few nuggets of info that I will be adding to my procedures and checklists tomorrow.  Thank you for that.

My only difference of opinion is... make time for that cold start vs the runway start.  I always have a better flight after a proper start-up... with my whole cockpit setup well before I get my nose pointed down the runway.  It's a pretty quick start&go process, especially with the cartridges.

Thanks again OP.

Edited May 24, 2024 by HawkEXO

[Kirk66]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

After my first flight I notice a tendency for the nose to overshoot neutral when neutralizing/unloading/easing off aft pressure on the stick, acting as if I shoved the stick full forward. This is most noticeable when unloading G before rolling wings level after a turn. The only way I have (so far) found to avoid this pitch overshoot is to keep some G on the jet while rolling level, which I always thought was a big no-no in older jets ("fly the cross").

Is this intended behavior, or is something whack with my stick calibration? (FFB off, 20cm extension)

 

Hi Nealius,

This is not normal, and I have not seen this while flying the jet. I also use a 20 cm extension. I find it flies best with the blending option enabled and set to the default 60 (both options checked), and at first a 10 curve on pitch to take some edge off pitch on the tanker, but otherwise you have to be easy on the stick - it doesn't need to move very far, and it's important to keep an eye on AOA (the tones help a lot). Trim it a lot (small inputs at a time). But yes, to roll, either unload and roll, or use lots of rudder if loaded up.

Vulture

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 hours ago, HawkEXO said:

I spent the last couple days just flying

Indeed, there’s no rush.

I do the same: the “aviate navigate communicate” part comes first and the “shooting stuff” training can wait

I actually felt nervous during my first few Phantom flights, which IMO is a testament to how well made this module is, and how good it feels to fly in VR

[Massifontana]

6 ore fa, reemit0772 ha scritto:

I have noticed the same, and I am also perplexed. 

Dunno if it's the same thing I noticed me too..it's like a tendency of the plane to pitch down while rolling, forcing you to always pull a little while turning..with a lot of speed bleeding

[Arecibo]

First flight and I accidentally popped the canopy, turned the engines off and blacked out 

But wow, immensely impressed with the job Heatblur have done.

[bfr]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:09 AM, Arecibo said:

First flight and I accidentally popped the canopy, turned the engines off and blacked out 

But wow, immensely impressed with the job Heatblur have done.

Normal day at the office then.

[VirusAM]

I am reading the book scream of eagles.
In a chapter they talk about a maneuver called rudder reversal.
Does someone know how to perform it?

[Grundar]

1 hour ago, VirusAM said:

I am reading the book scream of eagles.
In a chapter they talk about a maneuver called rudder reversal.
Does someone know how to perform it?

You probably know it from other names - Hammerhead or Wing Over.    It is a vertical maneuver where your aim is to quickly switch your heading 180 degrees (from going up to going down) and come out at the same altitude and airspeed you entered on.

Essentially you climb into the vertical, trim it up to hold vertical.  As you near the stall you want to apply rudder to one side, not abruptly and not at the stall but before you reach the stall.  Your nose should then drift over and start to head to the ground, keep rudder applied until gravity takes over and starts pulling you to the ground in the opposite direction.  Then you smoothly pull out to the altitude you came from.

 

Edit: Hmm I may be wrong on that and thinking of something else (like a wingover or hammerhead lmao).  Maybe it is instead the maneuver where you throw in rudder when an enemy is close behind you and the idea is that you pull G vertical and immediately throw in top rudder and it will effectively use your wings to greatly reduce your airspeed (works better with large wing surface areas).  This will throw you vertical and then quickly flip you onto your back and then you keep rudder in and you will come up behind the enemy aircraft - presuming they haven't reacted to the maneuver.  You will be very slow after this and you will need to get speed up quickly.  Ideally it places you behind your enemy in a gun kill or missile kill position.  Don't bother attempting the maneuver at low speeds.  So it's like a rapid wingover maneuver at much higher speeds.

Edited May 26, 2024 by Grundar

[VirusAM]

3 hours ago, Grundar said:

You probably know it from other names - Hammerhead or Wing Over.    It is a vertical maneuver where your aim is to quickly switch your heading 180 degrees (from going up to going down) and come out at the same altitude and airspeed you entered on.

Essentially you climb into the vertical, trim it up to hold vertical.  As you near the stall you want to apply rudder to one side, not abruptly and not at the stall but before you reach the stall.  Your nose should then drift over and start to head to the ground, keep rudder applied until gravity takes over and starts pulling you to the ground in the opposite direction.  Then you smoothly pull out to the altitude you came from.

 

Edit: Hmm I may be wrong on that and thinking of something else (like a wingover or hammerhead lmao).  Maybe it is instead the maneuver where you throw in rudder when an enemy is close behind you and the idea is that you pull G vertical and immediately throw in top rudder and it will effectively use your wings to greatly reduce your airspeed (works better with large wing surface areas).  This will throw you vertical and then quickly flip you onto your back and then you keep rudder in and you will come up behind the enemy aircraft - presuming they haven't reacted to the maneuver.  You will be very slow after this and you will need to get speed up quickly.  Ideally it places you behind your enemy in a gun kill or missile kill position.  Don't bother attempting the maneuver at low speeds.  So it's like a rapid wingover maneuver at much higher speeds.

 

Yeah that's what I thought, but I found this video and it seems something different, also it does explain the visualization of it, but not a procedure 

https://youtu.be/5ab6Ek1UCcM?si=3XV97C2sMWAeIxcz

[Victory205]

That ain’t it.

While “planes on sticks” can be a useful training tool, many instructors perform physics defying maneuvers with them, inches apart, when he should be standing across the room to make the relative maneuver to scale. The gent in the video was describing a high G roll guns defense, rolling with rudder at high alpha. He reversed the roll with his sticks, but stated that he was “continuing the roll”, implying same direction. The delta winged 106 could do a single bat turn, after which it was dead in the water. 

I can “sort of” do the NFWS rudder reversal in our F-4E, but it takes a long time to execute, and isn’t what I would call an easily “repeatable” maneuver. It’s quicker to just roll and put the lift vector on your opponent than to attempt a reversal that swaps ends at low speed. 

Two things to keep in mind-

• It was an extension used to gain separation and geometry from an opponent that had either only a guns or rear aspect IR missiles.

• In contrast to the hard winged Navy F-4B/J’s in the aforementioned book, we have a “soft winged” F-4E. Even with our slats locked in (which I also tried), the F-4E has fixed slats on the outer wing panels, not to mention a different CG and aerodynamic profile due to the under nose gun installation.

Vertical rudder reversals by the way, were being done in the F8 community before the Phantom guys adopted it during the unpleasantries in Southeast Asia.

Don’t want to spoil the fun for you, so I’ll let you guys figure it out. It’s sort of an inertial maneuver, to give you a hint.

Edited May 26, 2024 by Victory205

[Grundar]

1 hour ago, VirusAM said:

Yeah that's what I thought, but I found this video and it seems something different, also it does explain the visualization of it, but not a procedure 

https://youtu.be/5ab6Ek1UCcM?si=3XV97C2sMWAeIxcz

That was a good video, it is very interesting to see how regretful he was of that in combat. I imagine that in latest gen fighters it is a no go, too many safety systems and fly by wire would prevent it I think.  In the F4e? I imagine the wing is "biggish" enough, you would have to flick the stabilisation switches to off.  Really need an SME to explain it.

 

Edit: and there you go Victory205 to the rescue.  

Edited May 26, 2024 by Grundar

[Phantom12]

Not sure how it compares to the real technique but for me best technique of reversing at the top of a zoom is to use full rudder at about 40-50 kts. Works best if you are not purely vertical but maybe 80 deg nose high with wings perpedicular to the horizon. I tried a couple different things out and for me this is the most repeatable, and "clean" way of getting the nose back down. I can also leave it in burner without running into compressor stalls.

 

I tried the tail slides Victory described in the OP but I usually end up tumbling somewhat on the way down, and if you dont go to idle you get that loud unpleasant sounding banging from the compressor stalls. Probably I wasnt perfectly vertical enough, or too impatient and started pulling on the stick before getting slow enough. At least for me the rudder technique is easier in practice as well as its hard to look at the ADI to get perfectly vertical while looking over your shoulder.

 

Here is Shaw's description of Rudder Reversal FWIW: 

[jojo]

Am I the only to struggle with the trim ?

I always get a click too much or not enough.

Especially in landing configuration, I can't manage to trim "hands free" for landing AoA...