waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[stonewall197922]

15 минут назад, Avimimus сказал:

The other question regarding contracts:

• If Razbam were to hypothetically shutter... what is the state of their licenses with their various dev teams?
• Would it be possible for any of the assets, coding or research to be transferred to a new developer? Could their personnel leave to form new teams? Or do they have non-compete agreements?

Of course, we probably don't have access to that information any more than we know the contractual relationship with ED - but it might prove critical if some of the developers want to continue (or recover some revenue from existing work) and the company leaders don't.

Personally, I think we shouldn't be speculating too much. But I did feel like mentioning this additional angle, as it might be significant.

Until case is resolved there will be no answers.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/348848-whats-the-status/?do=findComment&comment=5452920

Edited June 6, 2024 by stonewall197922

[Horns]

19 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

According to multiple razbam devs on discord today ED is refusing to communicate with them at all. So how exactly is this policy that ED has of complete radio silence both with us in the community and the devs at razbam working toward a solution? @NineLine

Let's not take comments made by one party and unconfirmed by the other as truth.

[JuiceIsLoose]

22 minutes ago, Horns said:

Let's not take comments made by one party and unconfirmed by the other as truth.

It has been asked time and time again if they are actually communicating with RB, because of the claims by RB that there is no communication. And to my knowledge ED has responded they are "working towards a resolution" but have never answered if they are actually communicating, when referencing this claim by some RB devs.

[Horns]

6 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

It has been asked time and time again if they are actually communicating with RB, because of the claims by RB that there is no communication. And to my knowledge ED has responded they are "working towards a resolution" but have never answered if they are actually communicating, when referencing this claim by some RB devs.

Uh huh, so you're getting a claim on one side and effectively a 'no comment' from the other - that is not a confirmation. You're entitled to choose to believe the side who's commenting rather than the side who isn't, but the idea that ED isn't communicating with them is not confirmed truth.

[NineLine]

7 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

It has been asked time and time again if they are actually communicating with RB, because of the claims by RB that there is no communication. And to my knowledge ED has responded they are "working towards a resolution" but have never answered if they are actually communicating, when referencing this claim by some RB devs.

Yes, there is communication. No there is no details on that communication, again this needs to be dealt in private between the two management teams.

[freehand]

The forums here have become so toxic this last few months every one is kicking off about anything what ever has become of this place.

 

[Oban]

4 minutes ago, freehand said:

The forums here have become so toxic this last few months every one is kicking off about anything what ever has become of this place.

 

This!!

[Horns]

This whole debate, whichever side you are on, has come about because Razbam decided to make public comments about the dispute with ED - if not for Razbam's comments this conversation would not be happening. I know some people think customers are better served hearing part of the argument than none at all, I'm not sure and I probably won't make up my mind until after the situation is over and I see what happens with refunds, if things aren't resolved. Some also believe that Razbam and its devs were entitled to make the public comments they have, that opinion is valid. I disagree with it, but I've always disliked bullhorn negotiation.

Either way, it certainly looks like there has been a loss of goodwill as a result of this. If I were ED - please note I am not - I would be asking myself if this is really someone I can afford to be in business with, or whether it's better to cut my losses, recover what I can, find the best outcome I can for customers and move on. ED do not appear to currently be doing that, so kudos to them for being more conciliatory than I would be.

Just one dude's opinion.

[Dreadlifter]

41 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Yes, there is communication. No there is no details on that communication, again this needs to be dealt in private between the two management teams.

As a customer obviously not knowing is frustrating but as a businessman I understand the need for discretion. I was one of those who really looked forward to the Strike Eagle and bought it around release time. I am not going to ask for a refund/credit as I just want the issue resolved so I can continue to fly it. Good luck to those involved to resolve in as timely a manner as possible. 

[Citizen]

33 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Yes, there is communication. No there is no details on that communication, again this needs to be dealt in private between the two management teams.

From an academic perspective, the ship has sailed on this being a private matter. 
To say there's an IP dispute but not show receipts leaves a void that comm theory says will be filled and the lack of communication will be taken to represent the worst possibilities.
To quote Paul Watzlowick, "one cannot not communicate."

This is one of the times where legal best practices are absolutely the wrong thing to do from a public relations and culture building standpoint.  The lack of communication has already done irreparable harm and I'm seeing signs of opinion snowballing. 

I cannot express how important the next week, days, and hours are to the brand. 

My professional advice would be to make the legal team aware of this and come up with a plan to communicate evidence with your audience in a manner that does not compromise your legal position.  I'm not a lawyer, I don't know what that looks like, but I do know what it looks like when a brand loses the confidence of its tentpost community members.

[nessuno0505]

10 ore fa, Dangerzone ha scritto:

I'll continue to buy DCS products. Why?

I can buy modules and it's part of my disposable income, not the majority of it.

It's not a matter of money: I do not own any of the Razbam modules so my DCS is not affected.

It's a matter of trust: you have a sale system based on always new payware modules: I pay for the new module so you can continue to work and complete the previous ones too. If 4 of the previous modules expire, how can I be sure you'll complete the last one?

Change your sale system with a subscription model, and It will no longer be a problem if the modules expire.

I'm not saying I want a subscription model. I'm saying with the current model you cannot allow to let modules expire. If, despite all your efforts, nevertheless some modules expire, you must find a way to compensate customers.

Until I won't know how (or until the situation is back to normal) I'm sorry but my wallet is closed.

My income would allow, but I can choose to put money elsewhere in the meantime; fortunately DCS is not my one and only hobby.

[Oban]

13 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

It's not a matter of money: I do not own any of the Razbam modules so my DCS is not affected.

It's a matter of trust: you have a sale system based on always new payware modules: I pay for the new module so you can continue to work and complete the previous ones too. If 4 of the previous modules expire, how can I be sure you'll complete the last one?

Change your sale system with a subscription model, and It will no longer be a problem if the modules expire.

I'm not saying I want a subscription model. I'm saying with the current model you cannot allow to let modules expire. If, despite all your efforts, nevertheless some modules expire, you must find a way to compensate customers.

Until I won't know how (or until the situation is back to normal) I'm sorry but my wallet is closed.

My income would allow, but I can choose to put money elsewhere in the meantime; fortunately DCS is not my one and only hobby.

Why do people keep insisting with this subscription malarkey, when ED have said it's not going to happen? 

You're talking like all modules have some sort of time constraint on them, and potentially expiring, you do realise that every single piece of software written can be classed in a similar manner?

Companies can go into liquidation, and product support no longer exists, it happens all the time with mobile phone apps, IOS gets updated, apps fail to update, and chicken little, the sky is falling, and we're all going to die, except it doesn't, and the vast majority move along and go with the flow and the times, everyone is looking at the worst case scenario, and having knee jerk reactions, calm and cool heads prevail.

The vast majority of DCS players had no issues with ED or their modules, until this nasty bitter spat with Razbam cropped up, and suddenly now everyone's a legal expert, and they know everything that's going on.

It's your choice to not support other modules or DCS, personally I will keep flying the F15E, and my other Razbam modules until they've been withdrawn from the core engine, there's nothing to stop you from flying the core aircraft that came FREE.

I've no reason to doubt that ED legal teams are not talking to Razbam's legal representatives.



 

[afnav130]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

sorry but we have made the only statement we can at the moment regarding RAZBAM situation, we now have to wait and hope for a good out come, discussions are in progress at the top level. 

thank you 

There are facts and then there are suppositions. Speaking facts that cannot be refuted is not something that should be off limits. Facts can't change, facts are solid.  By staying silent it only makes people think things that aren't good in relation to ED. 

IE "Razbam violated contractual agreements and here is the proof without ambiguity" It's been months now. Public image is almost more important than anything else. You want people to trust the parent company, start doing stuff to make people trust it. Saying we have no comment for months if you know you are in the right and it's factual and beyond reproach...doesn't do that.  

Edited June 6, 2024 by afnav130

[nessuno0505]

21 minuti fa, Oban ha scritto:

Why do people keep insisting with this subscription 
The vast majority of DCS players had no issues with ED or their modules

I'm not saying I'm a legal expert, I do not want a subscription model if ED is not interested and I don't have any issue with ED.

Every piece of software dies sooner or later, and so will be for DCS. But DCS works because they sell incomplete modules that require years to be finished and I buy them in an incomplete state assuming they'll finish them, also thanks to the money they earn from the sale of the next incomplete module I buy.

Do you want to see an environment full of finished modules that work together (maybe in complex missions online or in a future dynamic campaign) or do you prefer a huge amount of partially cooked software, like a Ponzi scheme? If you believe in the first dream (and I assume it's also ED's dream) you have to assure every module is supported, at least as long as DCS exists.

Since the world goes on and things happen (a company can go bankrupt, a developer can die and so on) you have to find a way to protect your customers in the event something happens.

I'd like to know if there's a plan for such events even if tomorrow RB comes back to work (I won't buy from them since my trust in them is below zero, but that's another matter).

Edited June 6, 2024 by nessuno0505

[primus_TR]

So, one has to assume the military client in question has  in place a contract with ED to use DCS World with the Razbam module as a military tool, as DCS World is strictly for entertainment use only.

@BIGNEWYcan you confirm if that is the case?

Edited June 6, 2024 by primus_TR
Corrected reference

[Jarhead0331]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

sorry but we have made the only statement we can at the moment regarding RAZBAM situation, we now have to wait and hope for a good out come, discussions are in progress at the top level. 

thank you 

This is a fair statement and the only one anybody should expect or feel entitled to.  This is a private contractual dispute between two parties and despite our personal investments into the community and the products at stake, these are not issues that will be resolved in the court of public opinion. We just have to give it time, hope for the best and wait it out.  That doesn't mean that we cannot voice our concerns and hopes for a preferred outcome, or that ED has no obligation, in good faith and conscience, to post periodic updates like the one quoted above. 

So for now...fingers and toes remain crossed. Who is with me?

Edited June 6, 2024 by Jarhead0331

[afnav130]

18 minutes ago, primus_TR said:

So, one has to assume the military client in question has  in place a contract with ED to use DCS World with the Razbam module as a military tool, as DCS World is strictly for entertainment use only.

@BIGNEWYcan you confirm if that is the case?

 

They aren't using DCS. They are using MCS, which is the .mil side of DCS which we don't have access to. 

[Oban]

12 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

There are facts and then there are suppositions. Speaking facts that cannot be refuted is not something that should be off limits. Facts can't change, facts are solid.  By staying silent it only makes people think things that aren't good in relation to ED. 

IE "Razbam violated contractual agreements and here is the proof without ambiguity" It's been months now. Public image is almost more important than anything else. You want people to trust the parent company, start doing stuff to make people trust it. Saying we have no comment for months if you know you are in the right and it's factual and beyond reproach...doesn't do that.  

 

What utter nonesense, staying silent during a dispute stops you from saying stupid things that open you up for more litigation.

Unless you're a member of either legal team, of which you'd more than likely be bound by NDA's, then you're simply making things up. You do not know all the facts, but continue to speak like you do..

ED don't owe you an explanation, they've already stated they're pursuing a resolution, unless you're a stakeholder.

If you're going to talk about public image, then Ron Zambrano's public rant has singlehandly destroyed any reputation that he had to begin with, and he has a track record of shooting himself in the foot, and having a massive ego issue, from various other sim platforms.

He should have done everything through his legal representative, and under the terms and conditions of their agreement should have intimated to ED that the last thing he wishes to do at a meeting of the board of directors, was to withdraw support for his products until whatever the INTERNAL issue was resolved.



 

18 minutes ago, Jarhead0331 said:

This is a fair statement and the only one anybody should expect or feel entitled to.  This is a private contractual dispute between two parties and despite our personal investments into the community and the products at stake, these are not issues that will be resolved in the court of public opinion. We just have to give it time, hope for the best and wait it out.  That doesn't mean that we cannot voice our concerns and hopes for a preferred outcome, or that ED has no obligation, in good faith and conscience, to post periodic updates like the one quoted above. 

So for now...fingers and toes remain crossed. Who is with me?

 

Exactly !! Cool heads need to prevail

[Silver_Dragon]

23 minutes ago, primus_TR said:

So, one has to assume the military client in question has  in place a contract with ED to use DCS World with the Razbam module as a military tool, as DCS World is strictly for entertainment use only.

@BIGNEWYcan you confirm if that is the case?

 

Someone missing something?
 

Quote

1. LIMITED USE LICENCE
In consideration of you agreeing to abide by the terms of this Licence, Eagle Dynamics SA hereby grants to you a non-transferable, limited right and licence to install the Program and the Documentation solely and exclusively for your personal use on the terms of this Licence. All rights not specifically granted under this Licence are reserved by Eagle Dynamics SA and, as applicable, Eagle Dynamics's licensors. GOVERNMENT AND COMMERCIAL ENTITIES MAY NOT USE THIS SOFTWARE UNDER THIS EULA. Government and commercial entities wishing to use this software in conjunction with training or demonstrator applications must obtain a license directly from Eagle Dynamics SA under a separate pricing structure and terms of use.

The initial Mirage 2000C was a entretainment product... the Arme de l'Air "colaboration" appear after of the initial release (check the news)... and yes, has appears officialy on the France Armed forces FB and others social channels, similarly to the AGN A-10C trainer contract and other "Military / Training" ED products outside from "entretainment" DCS World version, and previously to them.... (from the A-10C / CA times), That is nothing new here...
https://warthognews.blogspot.com/2011/02/developer-interview-dcs-a10cs-jim.html

Other convenience missing info...

 

Edited June 6, 2024 by Silver_Dragon

[primus_TR]

1 minute ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Someone missing something?
 

The initial Mirage 2000C was a entretainment product... the Arme de l'Air "colaboration" appear after of the initial release (check the news)... and yes, has appears officialy on the France Armed forces FB and others social channels, similarly to the AGN A-10C trainer contract and other "Military / Training" ED products outside from "entretainment" DCS World version.... (from the A-10C / CA times), That is nothing new here...
https://warthognews.blogspot.com/2011/02/developer-interview-dcs-a10cs-jim.html

Other convenience missing info...

 

My question is, has a license been granted by ED for such use. 

[Silver_Dragon]

10 minutes ago, primus_TR said:

My question is, has a license been granted by ED for such use. 

That is your answer...
https://ec25iledefrance.com/simulation/

Quote

– Salle DCS!!!
As part of the innovation and “serious gaming” project, EC 2/5 “Ile de France” was equipped with 6 DCS Stations. These simulation stations allow you to simulate Air/Air tactics before carrying them out “Live”. The Navigation and Armament System of the Mirage 2000C was completely updated for the occasion by RAZBAMSIM.

You require the aproval of ED to use DCS on your profesional versions. That was confirmed on a ED video some years ago.

Other article about "Profesional versions":
https://www.twz.com/40620/a-10-warthog-pilots-are-using-the-digital-combat-simulator-video-game-to-train-in-vr

Edited June 6, 2024 by Silver_Dragon

[Beirut]

I just want my F-15E to work and be updated. 

 

Ducks need to be put in a row. 

[afnav130]

20 minutes ago, Oban said:

What utter nonesense, staying silent during a dispute stops you from saying stupid things that open you up for more litigation.

Unless you're a member of either legal team, of which you'd more than likely be bound by NDA's, then you're simply making things up. You do not know all the facts, but continue to speak like you do..

ED don't owe you an explanation, they've already stated they're pursuing a resolution, unless you're a stakeholder.

If you're going to talk about public image, then Ron Zambrano's public rant has singlehandly destroyed any reputation that he had to begin with, and he has a track record of shooting himself in the foot, and having a massive ego issue, from various other sim platforms.

He should have done everything through his legal representative, and under the terms and conditions of their agreement should have intimated to ED that the last thing he wishes to do at a meeting of the board of directors, was to withdraw support for his products until whatever the INTERNAL issue was resolved.



 

Exactly !! Cool heads need to prevail

Sure, this isn't high level sensitive negotiations that has ramifications for national security. Nobody is going to jail from what I know. Something didn't happen. Period. If I was the one who was sure nothing happened, I would say so publicly. I'm not going to sit there, and watch the world burn for the sake of silence. 

Please, WW3 isn't going to start if the factual cards are laid out on the table. This is a sim world, a world of fantasy and make believe. A lot more would get resolved if all cards were thrown the table and then the party that is clearly and factually  in the wrong would be pressured and even required to fix it, asap. Instead we get this dancing around legalese crap and months and months and months go on with no resolution. Thats not healthy or fun for anyone in the sim world, where we go to escape the reality of the real world. 

 

I have my ideas on the situation and you have yours. Deal. 

Edited June 6, 2024 by afnav130

[primus_TR]

9 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

That is your answer...
https://ec25iledefrance.com/simulation/

You require the aproval of ED to use DCS on your profesional versions. That was confirmed on a ED video some years ago.

Other article about "Profesional versions":
https://www.twz.com/40620/a-10-warthog-pilots-are-using-the-digital-combat-simulator-video-game-to-train-in-vr

 

I was aware of the A10 contract, but not the M2000. Thanks for the info. So, that simulator service provider is what prowler was referring to probably. 

Edited June 6, 2024 by primus_TR

[Silver_Dragon]

14 minutes ago, primus_TR said:

I was aware about the A10 contract, but not the M2000. Thanks for the info.

The M2000 use DCS Military versions, no entretainment DCS... and RAZBAM or 3rd party, has none control over the core or get licences to the military / profesional versions. If French Air force use the M2000C for training, ED has require to aproval them and get the propper "military version" no RAZBAM.

A old video from "military market versions"... 16 years old about MCS versions.

 

Edited June 6, 2024 by Silver_Dragon