waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Horns]

21 hours ago, PaulToo said:

If the developer(Razbam) wrote, even before the fiasco, that these things are planned it seems reasonable to assume that they would have happen at some point.

They also said we’d get the Mirage 2000-5 and the Harrier AV-8 II Plus, not to mention the features that were supposed to get added to the AV-8B in the game now. If we’re going on track record, Razbam’s claims are not something to base expectations on.

[Horns]

7 hours ago, toilet2000 said:

The contractor for Razbam’s Harrier manual is Baltic Dragon. Take it up with him if you’re unhappy with the unfinished manual.

Razbam is responsible for delivering that manual. Their arrangements for getting it done are irrelevant for customers. Razbam can take things up with their contractors, but I guess that’s another thing not getting done right now.

[lee1hy]

lol still no news 

[Mizzy]

46 minutes ago, toilet2000 said:

Not at all. He said that he puts a time limit in his contract work with any company he was contracted with, it's his standard modus operandi well before Razbam. He was hired by Razbam and has been working with them since the large updates to the Mirage 2000C.

Also, he himself stated that he would at the very least finish the F-15E if they ever get paid.

I would suggest getting your facts straight.

To put security in code says a lot does it not ?

49 minutes ago, toilet2000 said:

I would suggest getting your facts straight.

Yes I would agree, get your facts straight.

Greetings

[Mizzy]

4 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

However, if we want to say things as they are, the F-15e radar was not made by a member of the original Razbam team but by a developer hired for the purpose, one who put a time bomb in the radar code because he did not trust his new employers and who was one of the first to abandon the ship after the dispute became public. Whether he will return to work for Razbam once the matter is resolved, if it ever is, no one knows.

It was clear, to me anyway, that he didn't trust Razbam and not ED !

Mizzy

[toilet2000]

23 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

To put security in code says a lot does it not ?

Yes I would agree, get your facts straight.

Greetings

It doesn’t say anything when it’s standard procedure. He’s an optical physicists and who did optical physics contract work before for other companies.

It’s like saying it says a lot about ED that they put DRM and requires online activation on their product.

 

By the way, you’re not stating facts, just opinions.

You can hop in on Razbam’s Discord any time if you’d like to get the same exact info I just shared from the developers themselves, not the opinion of some random on the internet.

[toilet2000]

57 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Come on, your post, or any other post attacking me, has not been moderated, they are letting people let off gas and attacking me for my opinion, so don't start the heavy handed moderation BS, 

And what is your point? So Razbam are passing the Buck on their responsibilities?

And your evidence ?

I have not attacked you in any way.

 

I have provided my evidence in the exact post you are quoting.

[SOLIDKREATE]

MiG-23 Confirmed - TWO WEEKS! 

[BIGNEWY]

Folks keep to the rules or dont post. 

Anyone who continues to make personal attacks will get warnings and moderated.

[nessuno0505]

11 ore fa, Mizzy ha scritto:

It was clear, to me anyway, that he didn't trust Razbam and not ED !

Mizzy

Of course, his new employer being Razbam and not ED.

Cita

he puts a time limit in his contract work with any company he was contracted with

That's true, but it's the first time in his software developer career that this "precaution" is actually needed. With Razbam. A coincidence?

[bfr]

On 7/30/2024 at 3:19 PM, Smashy said:

Orbx seems to be happily married to another big civ sim.  DCS is the side chick for them.  HB is also getting more involved with the big civ sim and I'm wondering if this was planned all along or if it's to prepare for an uncertain future with ED.

And Razbam were connected with earlier iterations of MSFS for a great many years before they went anywhere near DCS, as were IndiaFoxtrotEcho. If you've got the resources to write content for multiple sims (especially when MSFS has a potential customer base orders of magnitude larger for products that are generally orders of magnitude less complex than DCS) then you'd be pretty daft not too.

[Neil Gardner]

On 8/2/2024 at 12:58 AM, Horns said:

A quick search of the current thread for posts containing “committed” and “eagle”, and a separate search for “committed” and either “F-15” or “F-15E” didn’t turn up anything that resembled that. There was a post from one of the mods saying they were “committed to solving the problems”, speaking of the dispute with Razbam generally. Maybe the comment you describe was said before one of the culls or in the older thread, or the same meaning was conveyed in different words, but everything I remember reading from the mods was very careful to be non-committal about the future development of the F-15E that, personally, I’d need to see the post to think otherwise. Same would also go for any commitment to do anything beyond keeping any other Razbam model functioning as it currently is.

It is one of those situations where you would swear that you had seen it before but cant remember where.

Really? Where did you see that?

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, Neil Gardner said:

It is one of those situations where you would swear that you had seen it before but cant remember where.

Really? Where did you see that?

I did read somewhere that Razbam were committed to continuing with DCS, or words to that effect. However, the longer this goes on, the more difficult it will be to heal and confidence has dissipated. I just can't see a good outcome in this, and of course, this is just my opinion based on speculation.

Mizzy 

[NineLine]

Ok all, the second purge has come, as before you can find all the posts right here. Nothing has been removed that was here before:

So there is nothing new and exciting to share. I/We really wish there was but the same things are going on right now. Management teams are talking with each other, its a legal manner and it's going as slow as it can be expected when you are talking with each other through others. No matter how you slice it, it's not a great situation. 

I also noticed that because me and BIGNEWY are trying to manage and maintain this thread we are taking some heat, suggesting we are ignorant, gaslighting, trying to steer the narrative, etc. If you feel this way or one I haven't mentioned, I, on behalf of myself and BN apologize. Our intention is only to point out that the only thing official is in this first post. We both understand there is more to it, but the details around different discord and websites don't show the full picture. So we are not trying to force you not to look, but as you consider everything before making snap judgements. This is not meant to be a pity party for me and BN either, this situation sucks and I am sure because we work with ED that venting on us is all you have. I just wanted to try and clarify a little more. If we could share more details we would, but right now it would not be professional or helpful.

Another reason for the purge is the fighting here as well, at the end of the day we should all be here for a stronger and better DCS, getting this solved with the least amount of pain should be everyone's goal, and I believe it is. Fighting with each other, and hating on ED or RAZBAM, will just make whatever happens at the end of this much harder to comeback from. So consider that even if the person on the other side of the screen believes something different, they are just here to fly cool planes and enjoy DCS and all its partners. 

So once again I open this up to all of you. While I am not forcing you to look away from other sources, we will not be discussing them here. Our focus is on the professional resolution of the current issues, doing it on reddit, Disord or these forums is not the path ED has chosen to take. So sharing private DMs, or random unrelated financial reports is still not up for discussion. Frustrated user, SME, or ex-dev comments are not up for debate. Only the official public declarations that have been shared by both teams are to be discussed, and those have all been shared in the first post. 

Most importantly, be kind to each other. If you need to vent on me or BN, that is fine, send us a DM, and tell us what we are doing to frustrate you. Understand we are trying to do our best in a really terrible situation. 

Thanks all.
NineLine/Norm 

[Pipe]

@NineLine This is all intensely frustrating for everyone, you and BN included. Can’t imagine putting up with all our s**t

Hope it all works out in everyone’s favour, and for ED and all the devs..

Edited August 5, 2024 by Pipe

[Slippa]

Well that’s fair enough. 

There’s enough spite and snarly on the Planet, we could all do with trying to be better not bitter about things. Let the lawyers milk their money and hope for some kind of ammicable settlement. The sooner the better. And yeah, let’s get on with flying some cool planes (and Chinooks ).

[RafaPolit]

I agree with @NineLine's premises and his concerns about being targeted (with BN) by the hate of the users.

The issue is that, as you yourself mention it, you are the face that ED puts forward to receive "the punches" while being grossly quiet about this issue.  So I'm the first one to not assign blame and wait for information to make an informed judgement, but I believe I am entitled to forming that judgement based on more information that what has been transmitted to us.

As you also mention, the other parties involved are providing their information, quoting conversations and chats... they are more forthcoming with the community and you (as a company, not you personally) are not.  I, as a paying customer, do need to make decisions based on those facts, as I don't have an endless stream of money to spend.  So, when I decide which games to back, which developers to support, I want to have as much information as possible.  With that, I decide if I: should purchase or suggest others purchase new ED modules or not, purchase or suggest others new 3rd party developer modules or not, purchase or suggest others purchase Razbam modules?

If this dispute lasted 2 days, then my decisions spanning 2 days are probably irrelevant.  If these problems span weeks, months or years, then those decisions are more important, and, as mentioned everywhere, this hurts the environment and how we community perceive DCS as a whole!  I think it's naive to ask a community to start compartmentalizing and think: DCS is one thing, EDs business is other, Razbam is another matter and you can concentrate only on the F-15 as the other modules are out of EA.  It simply doesn't work like that.  It's the entire community around a full game that's affected by this and the decisions we make around our purchasing habits.

This feels kind of those conversations: "please sr, what happened to my order?" "I'm just the front desk person, I don't know, I'm sorry".  "OK, let me speak to the person in charge so I can understand what happened!", "I'm sorry, I can't do that", "Then you are going to hear my complaints", "Sr, don't take it against me, I have nothing to do with this decision", "Great, then have the person that has something to do with it come forward", "I'm sorry, I can't do that".  I'm sure you have been on the other end of these conversations dozens of times in your life.  It's not a good place to be for anyone.

Sigh.

 

Edited August 5, 2024 by RafaPolit

[Citizen]

At this point, any statement without evidence or corroboration by both parties should hold no weight.  This includes official announcements.

RB has claimed they would not be able to continue development and yet some updates have been delivered across several modules in the meantime.

ED has claimed that there was an IP violation but has not provided evidence of this violation.

Both parties have, at times, pointed to being 'unable' to provide evidence for their claims due to ongoing discussions.  I do not believe this to be accurate.  Both parties may have been advised by their respective legal councils that it would be preferable to not publicize evidence to support their claims, but this is not the same as being 'unable' to do so.  Legal council cannot take into account loss of community trust, and their recommendations will be blind to that.  Both parties believe the contract has been violated, albeit for different reasons.  Since the contract has been violated, confidentiality is a matter of preference.

ED is a steward of the largest consumer-facing modern combat flight simulator platform and associated community.  In that respect, I am deeply disappointed with their performance.  Even if RB is the party in the wrong, the poor community culturebuilding and communication has done immense damage.

Be easy on BN and 9L where this is concerned: much of the decisionmaking likely lies in the hands of Wags and Nick Grey.

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, Citizen said:

Since the contract has been violated, confidentiality is a matter of preference.

Confidentiality is an integral matter of legal 'Due Process', it's not a preference. It's all to do with 'prejudicing' your legal position and no Party will want to do that. Anyway, I am going to finish my glass of wine and leave you all to it for a while. Just enjoy the game, it's really a lot of fun

Until sometime in the future, enjoy 

Mizzy 

[Citizen]

This is more of a public opinion position, but a claim was made by ED.  I could understand if they wish they never made that claim to begin with, but you can't unring that bell.  Even if providing proof of the claim compromises the negotiations, all that tells me is that they value the outcome of those negotiations more than community trust.  I don't envy their position, but it's one they've put themselves in.

[freehand]

5 minutes ago, Citizen said:

This is more of a public opinion position, but a claim was made by ED.  I could understand if they wish they never made that claim to begin with, but you can't unring that bell.  Even if providing proof of the claim compromises the negotiations, all that tells me is that they value the outcome of those negotiations more than community trust.  I don't envy their position, but it's one they've put themselves in.

What claim ? & why would they wish they never made said claim what ever it was.

Edited August 6, 2024 by freehand

[Horns]

2 hours ago, Citizen said:

This is more of a public opinion position, but a claim was made by ED.  I could understand if they wish they never made that claim to begin with, but you can't unring that bell.  Even if providing proof of the claim compromises the negotiations, all that tells me is that they value the outcome of those negotiations more than community trust.  I don't envy their position, but it's one they've put themselves in.

Please note that ED's 'claim' was a reply to a statement Razbam had already made. I'm sure ED would much rather have handled this professionally, ie without making statements to the public.

[JuiceIsLoose]

8 minutes ago, Horns said:

Please note that ED's 'claim' was a reply to a statement Razbam had already made. I'm sure ED would much rather have handled this professionally, ie without making statements to the public.

I’m sure ED would have wanted to continue to not pay RB for even more months with no one knowing. 
 

And no hate on Nineline or Bignewy. I stand by my statement previously that ED management is failing their community managers by staying silent. 

Edited August 6, 2024 by JuiceIsLoose

[NineLine]

4 hours ago, Citizen said:

At this point, any statement without evidence or corroboration by both parties should hold no weight.  This includes official announcements.

RB has claimed they would not be able to continue development and yet some updates have been delivered across several modules in the meantime.

ED has claimed that there was an IP violation but has not provided evidence of this violation.

Both parties have, at times, pointed to being 'unable' to provide evidence for their claims due to ongoing discussions.  I do not believe this to be accurate.  Both parties may have been advised by their respective legal councils that it would be preferable to not publicize evidence to support their claims, but this is not the same as being 'unable' to do so.  Legal council cannot take into account loss of community trust, and their recommendations will be blind to that.  Both parties believe the contract has been violated, albeit for different reasons.  Since the contract has been violated, confidentiality is a matter of preference.

ED is a steward of the largest consumer-facing modern combat flight simulator platform and associated community.  In that respect, I am deeply disappointed with their performance.  Even if RB is the party in the wrong, the poor community culturebuilding and communication has done immense damage.

Be easy on BN and 9L where this is concerned: much of the decisionmaking likely lies in the hands of Wags and Nick Grey.

We simply cannot share any more than we have, we know it makes it tough but that is where we are at right now. When things dip into the legal realm, you do not try and use social media to win your case. It's really that simple. 

45 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

I’m sure ED would have wanted to continue to not pay RB for even more months with no one knowing. 
 

And no hate on Nineline or Bignewy. I stand by my statement previously that ED management is failing their community managers by staying silent. 

 

No, I do not agree, they are handling this as professionally and correctly as possible now that this is a legal matter. The court of public opinion will not solve anything, in fact it might make it worse in some cases, we choose to move forward as we have and hope for the best outcome possible.

[Citizen]

4 hours ago, freehand said:

What claim ? & why would they wish they never made said claim what ever it was.

 

The IP infringement claim.  At this point, they appear unwilling to back it up which lowers trust with the audience.  If I was in their shoes, I would be wishing I hadn't been explicit about IP violations since that sort of claim will be expected to be backed up.
 

1 hour ago, Horns said:

Please note that ED's 'claim' was a reply to a statement Razbam had already made. I'm sure ED would much rather have handled this professionally, ie without making statements to the public.

RBs statement was fairly imprecise as to the root of the issue and rather focused on managing expectations moving forward.  If they weren't able to continue development for any reason, I would expect them to make a statement like that.

The major issue is that ED should have gotten in front of the situation long before RB could no longer sustain development.  We've lost phenomenal talent to a competitor and that is a failure of stewardship that is difficult to overlook.