waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[BIGNEWY]

36 minutes ago, some1 said:

I don't see any work being done on Razbam modules in the news or changelogs, or did I miss something? We're in Razbam thread, what does DCS improvements in other areas have to do with future development of Razbam modules if they decide to walk away? There isn't anyone else out there to take the mantle and finish the work, or even do the required maintenance, that's what I meant in previous post.

Your comment was " In many ways, it looks like DCS in 2024 is shrinking, not growing. It's a rather bleak picture. "

So you made more of a generic assumption about DCS which I replied to. 

Steam and MP is not the best way to measure activity in DCS, both are smaller than stand alone and single player, again you are making assumptions based on what information you can find. I know you have not been happy for a while and I am sorry about that, I do hope we can meet your expectation again in the future. 

thank you

[NineLine]

43 minutes ago, some1 said:

 

I don't see any work being done on Razbam modules in the news or changelogs, or did I miss something? We're in Razbam thread, what does DCS improvements in other areas have to do with future development of Razbam modules if they decide to walk away? There isn't anyone else out there to take the mantle and finish the work, or even do the required maintenance, that's what I meant in previous post.

 

2024.

According to Steam numbers, DCS player count is the lowest in 4 years.

According to ED site, peak MP server count was more than 1,5 years ago. I don't play MP myself but I saw some complaints that servers are not as populated as they used to.

No new 3rd party developers announced in 2024, no new 3rd party projects, the only new aircraft announced in 2024 so far is ED MiG-29. Either everyone keeps their cards close, or there's not much to talk about.

Of course DCS is far from dying, and ED vs. Razbam dispute did not cause all of this, but it certainly does not help with player retention.

 

As BIGNEWY stated, aside from the troubles with RB right now, ED is very healthy, we have a number of things coming, many 3rd Parties working on projects and I hope we can put this RB stuff behind us as well.

If you want to discuss questions based on the first post, that is fine. Otherwise, this thread is not for anything else. Please stay on topic. Off-topic will be removed. Thanks. 

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, some1 said:

I don't see any work being done on Razbam modules in the news or changelogs, or did I miss something?

 

You know that Razbam have dropped tools for several months now, so why are you stating something you already know! A bit baffling !

2 hours ago, some1 said:

Of course DCS is far from dying, and ED vs. Razbam dispute did not cause all of this, but it certainly does not help with player retention.

 

Cheer up, it may never happen. You won't be welcome at any Christmas parties with this doom and gloom attitude.  Only teasing, not serious.

Mizzy

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Steam and MP is not the best way to measure activity in DCS, both are smaller than stand alone and single player, again you are making assumptions based on what information you can find. I know you have not been happy for a while and I am sorry about that, I do hope we can meet your expectation again in the future. 

thank you

MP is still a minority of people playing DCS, by far the vast majority play SP including me.

[Devil 505]

3 hours ago, some1 said:

Steam numbers

STEAM Data is not an accurate depiction of the totality of DCS players.  In fact, I would say it is much smaller than you probably think.  Most of us hardcore ED/DCS fans, including myself, have been flying the standalone version since its inception and feel it is much better than steam for a several reason that do not pertain to this thread.  I agree with NineLine and Bignewy DCS World is healthy and has a healthy future.  And to state 2024 has been a failing year is misinformation.  I think we have received more this year than any other year prior. Afghanistan, Kiowa, Chinook, F-4, along with a major sim update.  That is not the definition of a failing company to me.  And there are still a few months left for any stragglers that may or may not be released this year.  I feel the forums tell a stronger story and provide a better statical proving ground for ED's success than steam stats.

[Davee]

On 10/10/2024 at 4:57 PM, Mizzy said:

Agreed, I don't think it's a guess, you are on to the right track and that is hot air coming from Zambrano. All that money he has spent on the Tokyo event, don't you think he could have used that money to pay his disgruntled employees who developed the F15E ? If he can afford to hold such an event, he obviously isn't interested in paying his employees first. !!  Come on, the evidence is Zambrano is acting like a double glazing salesman and people in the UK will know what I mean and where I am coming from. 

Mizzy

My guess would be different budgets that are mutually exclusive and supported by investors as such. Advertising generally cannot be crosspurposed for wages or contracts. That would give latitude for the Tokyo show. Business 101. 

 

[Mizzy]

3 hours ago, Davee said:

My guess would be different budgets that are mutually exclusive and supported by investors as such. Advertising generally cannot be crosspurposed for wages or contracts. That would give latitude for the Tokyo show. Business 101. 

 

The investors must obviously know Razbam hasn't paid his contractors. Mutually exclusive budgets don't really explain why the contractors didn't get paid, surely if they are investing in a Company (shares, advertising whatever), it would be due diligence to investigate why the Company's Contractors didn't get their money. Also, part of the the Company's budget should have been ring fenced for commitment's to pay for people who have developed on behalf of Razbam !!

Would you invest in a Company that doesn't pay their debts ! Sorry I don't subscribe to your theory but no harm done, it's just speculation and people like to speculate, it's a type of entertainment.

Mizzy  

[Davee]

1 hour ago, Mizzy said:

The investors must obviously know Razbam hasn't paid his contractors. Mutually exclusive budgets don't really explain why the contractors didn't get paid, surely if they are investing in a Company (shares, advertising whatever), it would be due diligence to investigate why the Company's Contractors didn't get their money. Also, part of the the Company's budget should have been ring fenced for commitment's to pay for people who have developed on behalf of Razbam !!

Would you invest in a Company that doesn't pay their debts ! Sorry I don't subscribe to your theory but no harm done, it's just speculation and people like to speculate, it's a type of entertainment.

Mizzy  

My reply was aimed directly at your statement: "don't you think he could have used that money to pay his disgruntled employees" - Different budgets. Nothing to do with investors being comfortable. It has to do with pure business and it is NOT a theory. You've gone off on a tangent. 

 

[Pipe]

"Would you invest in a Company that doesn't pay their debts !"

Hmm, kind of sounds like ED

no?

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, Davee said:

My reply was aimed directly at your statement: "don't you think he could have used that money to pay his disgruntled employees" - Different budgets. Nothing to do with investors being comfortable. It has to do with pure business and it is NOT a theory. You've gone off on a tangent. 

 

My reply was to your statement, "Mutually exclusive budgets"! Don't pretend my choice is off  tangent. Why not be honest, you chose your speculation and I chose mine 

Greetings

Mizzy

6 minutes ago, Pipe said:

"Would you invest in a Company that doesn't pay their debts !"

Hmm, kind of sounds like ED

no?

I was expecting this response, a dispute is not a debt, it's formal litigation in this case. Do you understand the term 'formal litigation'?

Edited October 13, 2024 by Mizzy

[Pipe]

One might also understand "not paid" for something that has nothing to do with said litigation, seems ligit

Edited October 13, 2024 by Pipe

[Mizzy]

On 10/13/2024 at 2:05 AM, Pipe said:

One might also understand "not paid" for something that has nothing to do with said litigation, seems ligit

 

Word salad.  If you don't like ED, why not clear off ? Play something else, it's a simple choice.

Edited October 14, 2024 by Mizzy

[Pipe]

Scenario: ED paid RAZBAM its share for the SE.

RAZBAM keeps working on projects business as usual.

ED behind closed doors goes after RB for IP issue, ED is 100% in the right. They have absolutly nothing to lose!

The litigation plays out in their favor, they get what they want. And we're all oblivious. Perfect!

Since in your mind the end result will be the same, which scenario would have been better, the one were in or the above?

BTW I dont hate ED, just some of their decisions

Edited October 13, 2024 by Pipe

[Oban]

8 hours ago, Davee said:

My guess would be different budgets that are mutually exclusive and supported by investors as such. Advertising generally cannot be crosspurposed for wages or contracts. That would give latitude for the Tokyo show. Business 101. 

 

Doesn't matter if it's different budgets, it's not any different than having the South Atlenatic team continue to develop and support that product, they're still part of the Razbam infrastructure, and come under the same Razbam overheads, an internal robbing Peter to pay Paul is the norm, that being said, it doesn't look well when the CEO takes off to Japan for several days, whilst he's not paid his prime module devs, even a retainer ( if he was confident that his case is watertight, and ED are in the wrong)

If he also thought that his case was watertight, I'd have also thought that he would have kept a reign on his devs and told them to keep their mouths shut, and say and do nothing, alas the Razbam side of things has had more leaks than a seive,

[MAXsenna]

Scenario: ED paid RAZBAM its share for the SE.
RAZBAM keeps working on projects business as usual.
ED behind closed doors goes after RB for IP issue, ED is 100% in the right. They have absolutly nothing to lose!
The litigation plays out in their favor, they get what they want. And we're all oblivious. Perfect!
Since in your mind the end result will be the same, which scenario would have been better, the one were in or the above?
BTW I dont hate ED, just some of their decisions

Well ED pursued it behind closed doors. Why do we even know the situation. Ever thought about that?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Pipe]

13 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Well ED pursued it behind closed doors. Why do we even know the situation. Ever thought about that?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

So you are saying, even if RB had been paid. They would have ceased work on everything and gone public?

Edited October 13, 2024 by Pipe
spelling

[PD919]

On 10/8/2024 at 5:10 AM, Flia said:

Ron Zambrano and his Razbam  will not be remembered well. Not by me. And I write this as the owner of all Razbam modules.

RAZBAM has taken some of the most iconic modules, the F-15E and Harrier, and turned it into a development hell seemingly.  They bite off more than they can chew and it shows.  There are more unmet promises from them than any other 3rd party dev.

[rob10]

On 10/11/2024 at 10:42 AM, some1 said:

 

I don't see any work being done on Razbam modules in the news or changelogs, or did I miss something? We're in Razbam thread, what does DCS improvements in other areas have to do with future development of Razbam modules if they decide to walk away? There isn't anyone else out there to take the mantle and finish the work, or even do the required maintenance, that's what I meant in previous post.

2024.

According to Steam numbers, DCS player count is the lowest in 4 years.

According to ED site, peak MP server count was more than 1,5 years ago. I don't play MP myself but I saw some complaints that servers are not as populated as they used to.

No new 3rd party developers announced in 2024, no new 3rd party projects, the only new aircraft announced in 2024 so far is ED MiG-29. Either everyone keeps their cards close, or there's not much to talk about.

Of course DCS is far from dying, and ED vs. Razbam dispute did not cause all of this, but it certainly does not help with player retention.

On top of everything else said above, and I can't remember exactly when it happened, but there definitely has been a trend of people moving FROM Steam to standalone since you can only get trials on standalone.  It might not account for all of the decline, but I'd guess it could be a substantial part of the decline just based on comments in the forums.

[bfr]

7 hours ago, rob10 said:

On top of everything else said above, and I can't remember exactly when it happened, but there definitely has been a trend of people moving FROM Steam to standalone since you can only get trials on standalone.  It might not account for all of the decline, but I'd guess it could be a substantial part of the decline just based on comments in the forums.

Exactly this. I've been using DCS since the original FC days and don't think I ever had it via Steam and certainly remember a lot of chatter of people moving licences across from Steam for various reasons. I'm also yet to ever play it on MP.

[Ignition]

11 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Well ED pursued it behind closed doors. Why do we even know the situation. Ever thought about that?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Because after 8 months of not having a single patch from Razbam we would know. But you as ED think the community wouldn't care.

[Oban]

12 minutes ago, Ignition said:

Because after 8 months of not having a single patch from Razbam we would know. But you as ED think the community wouldn't care.

Factually incorrect, there's been updates to the South Atlantic map, and that's a Razbam map, also according to Razbam themselves all other modules apart from the F15E were out of early access and in their opinions were complete ( we the community know this is far from the truth)

The community do care, but not enough to get constantly worked up about soemthing that's outside of their control.

[MAXsenna]

13 hours ago, Pipe said:

So you are saying, even if RB had been paid. They would have ceased work on everything and gone public?

Is that how you read it? Better unclog those pipes. 

1 hour ago, Ignition said:

Because after 8 months of not having a single patch from Razbam we would know.

Well, there would have been questions for sure, with wild guesses and conspiracies. 

1 hour ago, Ignition said:

But you as ED think the community wouldn't care.

No I don't. I actually care very much. Why do you think I read this thread. Better do a bit test. I see no sparks. 

 

Both of you so clearly demonstrate why you're here. You wanna stir it up. You read everything as to have it fit your narrative. Why? 

[Ignition]

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Well, there would have been questions for sure, with wild guesses and conspiracies.

So, it wouldn't matter after all since we're here with wild guesses and conspiracies.

Why so much hate for Razbam when they were telling their customers what they were going to do with something so important for us, like keeping their modules updated and completing a recently released module? Just because ED say so doesn't mean is the best for the community.

[Pipe]

5 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Is that how you read it? Better unclog those pipes. 

Well, there would have been questions for sure, with wild guesses and conspiracies. 

No I don't. I actually care very much. Why do you think I read this thread. Better do a bit test. I see no sparks. 

 

Both of you so clearly demonstrate why you're here. You wanna stir it up. You read everything as to have it fit your narrative. Why? 

Not stirring anything up, if ED had managed this such as the scenario I put forward. They would have gotten what you think they deserve. And this thread would not exist. 

[Devil 505]

1 hour ago, Ignition said:

Just because ED say so doesn't mean is the best for the community.

This is the primary issue with the public and inexperienced community members who are not familiar with corporate policies and legally binding contracts.  Contractual language is everything in a corporate business.  When both parties sign on the dotted line stating they will both adhere to their contractual obligations and responsibilities; it very rarely leaves any room for misinterpretation or grey areas because there is a lot of reading and discussion between the two before they sign.  To the ED community in large, ED and Razbam is a sim for us to enjoy and to some of us, they think we are the focal point of every decision they make and if not so, they are wrong.  This could not be further from the truth.  At the end of the day, ED is still a business and needs to make a profit to continue providing what we the community seek.  If contracts are indeed violated by a third party, then ED has every right as a customer to that third party to enforce the contractual obligations not being met.  If they did not enforce them, then it puts every other third-party developer at a disadvantage.  Every Subtler has to be held to the same standards in their contractual obligations, to include ED's obligations to the third-party. 

You can get paid to provide a service to a customer (ED customer, Razbam 3rd part developer for ED), but if you still violate the contract, the customer can cease payment until said contract is adhered to.  This is common even in the Government contract world.  It is never easy when a third party decides to make up their own rules or cease to follow the contractual language the signed upon because years into the contract, they want to renegotiate what they can or cannot do.  I can almost guarantee you ED did the best they could before it got to this situation.  I have been in this exact circumstance before, and it is never easy for both sides.  

What I can say is, it is typically obvious who is at fault when you start making public appearance to slander the partner you work with to gain support from the customer.  A strategy shady people tend to use to sway customers who do not want to put any thought into what is actually going on.  This is most unprofessional and tends to burn if not blow bridges to a point where business relationships cease because now the trust is gone.  Any time there is a contractual violation, it usually has lawyers attached at the end of it if both parties cannot resolve the issue.  This is exactly why we have not heard anything.  Lawyer's get involved and now you are being directed by your attorneys to remain silent until litigation is completed.  And even then, taking the high road and staying professional is exactly what I expect to see out of ED when this is all said and done.  There is no added benefit in lowering your standards to the opposing party. 

I have said this a lot, do not be the Monday morning Quarter back and assume Razbam did not get paid because of rumors you have read.  It is misinformation and counterproductive to assume anything you read online.  Being a former cop, it's like someone watching 3 minutes of body cam footage and presuming to tell you and the entire world they know how the officer should have handled the call when they never had the courage to even where the badge or understand the full story.  As someone who owns all Razbam modules, it pains me to see the F-15E and Harrier go, but I would not support such an unprofessional business owner if this is the way he thinks business should be conducted.  Hopefully the modules make it back from someone else someday, but there are plenty of phenomenal aircraft to fly in DCS. If Razbam winds up in the drink, then so be it.  It will be a product of unprofessional behavior.    

ED, you have my full support for your professionalism, and I look forward to a very successful future with the sim.  And again, OUTSTANDING post on the first page.  Very well stated and factual in the order presented. 

When are we getting the Blackhawk?