waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Oban]

2 hours ago, afnav130 said:

Anyways, if I were RB I would go freaking nuclear and lay all my cards out on the table. 

That's what they have already done...

 

2 hours ago, afnav130 said:

If I were RB no chance I'm signing any kind of NDA about any settlement. I don't think either side will come out of this looking great if we got the full story.

You kind of condradicted yourself there considering you've been in the RB camp from the get go.

RB devs were responsible for all the leaked contracts, and conversations, which may or may not have been covered under an NDA to begin with... so I doubt they'd comply with any sort of NDA as it is... you're right though, niether camp is going to come out of this looking good, one will still have a corner of the market with a possible Pyrrhic victory, the other may fade into the sunset, and reappear a few years down the line.

I personally cannot see how there can be any trust and respect between them to continue what should have been a profitable relationship. It's a very bleak situation and outlook where the only common ground seems to be the continued development of the flagship F15E.

[Mike Force Team]

Sounds like a possible dissolution of business relationship. Unfortunate for many.

[bfr]

On 1/14/2025 at 10:02 PM, Lord_Pyro said:

If i got all the posts during the last year right, there is a system in place. However only for newer modules. Though Razbam started working on the SEagle way before that, so those new terms do not apply for them.

Or possibly the conditions where any handover is contractually obliged to occur haven't yet been formally met. Bear in mind that the two parties appear to be still in dispute. Therefore what exactly the situation officially currently is, besides obviously rather strained, is not a settled matter.

[NineLine]

8 hours ago, afnav130 said:

Razbam is done with new modules for DCS at the very least. I don't care about the MiG-23 but guess that module has been <profanity> canned. Good job ED. Anyways, if I were RB I would go freaking nuclear and lay all my cards out on the table. 

Someday the full story will come out and it will be easy to figure out who is right, and who is wrong. If I were RB no chance I'm signing any kind of NDA about any settlement. I don't think either side will come out of this looking great if we got the full story.

This is why you should stick to official announcements, you are taking a lot of liberty with unofficial commentary and emotional posts. Just wait till the dust settles and see where we are at. No one aircraft can only be done by a certain team. 

[LordOrion]

8 hours ago, afnav130 said:

Razbam is done with new modules for DCS at the very least. I don't care about the MiG-23 but guess that module has been <profanity> canned. Good job ED. Anyways, if I were RB I would go freaking nuclear and lay all my cards out on the table. 

Someday the full story will come out and it will be easy to figure out who is right, and who is wrong. If I were RB no chance I'm signing any kind of NDA about any settlement. I don't think either side will come out of this looking great if we got the full story.

Zambrano, is that you?

 

[rcjonessnp175]

22 minutes ago, NineLine said:

This is why you should stick to official announcements, you are taking a lot of liberty with unofficial commentary and emotional posts. Just wait till the dust settles and see where we are at. No one aircraft can only be done by a certain team. 

I agree with ya nineline, but also another thing to think about is this,  I gather that allot of folks are certainly emotional and upset as the razbam teams radar modelling was something of amazement and art.  So losing that prospectively, at least in my eyes and others is certainly a big minus.  Now who knows what's going to happen, we can what if this till cows come home, i want to just enjoy dcs and enjoy the F15e and hope when it all does settle it becomes a completed module.

  I would hate for the dcs ecosystem to lose great talent that raises the bar in aspects of the sim and drives others to match... 

 

Regards

[afnav130]

4 hours ago, LordOrion said:

Zambrano, is that you?

 

Hahah nope, if I were I would you would know it. Just someone who is tired of the non resolutions that this point. DCS is awesome, and I can't stop thinking that cooler heads could have prevailed. 

Edited January 16 by afnav130

[Shibbyland]

14 hours ago, Oban said:

I personally cannot see how there can be any trust and respect between them to continue what should have been a profitable relationship. It's a very bleak situation and outlook where the only common ground seems to be the continued development of the flagship F15E.

I agree with this.

Whatever happens, I'll be amazed if they continue any sort of business relationship after this. The reputational damage done here is immeasurable for both parties, there'll be no winners.

[cfrag]

It is (or rather: should be) irrelevant who is at fault in this mess. We (the customers) only talk with ED when we purchase, and they handle their third party contributor - as it should be.

It does not matter how we got into this mess, and quite frankly, nobody looks good in this thing. The only important  thing is to get out of this mess, and we should refrain from feeding the trolls. Let's give everyone involved room to breathe, and let's not react to utterings from anyone, no matter how tantalizing or salacious.

One Hawk is enough. I will trust ED to get this done, and I think we should not insert ourselves lest it gets worse.  

[some1]

Wonder how much breathing room do they need. One year was not enough, so... two years? Five maybe?

[stonewall197922]

1 минуту назад, some1 сказал:

Wonder how much breathing room do they need. One year was not enough, so... two years? Five maybe?

Both sides located in different counties. So it can`t be fast. Especially if sides have difficulties or will to communicate with each other.

[some1]

5 minutes ago, stonewall197922 said:

sides have difficulties or will to communicate with each other

Oh, we can be certain of that. We wouldn't be in this mess otherwise.

[Nightdare]

7 hours ago, rcjonessnp175 said:

I agree with ya nineline, but also another thing to think about is this,  I gather that allot of folks are certainly emotional and upset as the razbam teams radar modelling was something of amazement and art.  So losing that prospectively, at least in my eyes and others is certainly a big minus.  Now who knows what's going to happen, we can what if this till cows come home, i want to just enjoy dcs and enjoy the F15e and hope when it all does settle it becomes a completed module.

  I would hate for the dcs ecosystem to lose great talent that raises the bar in aspects of the sim and drives others to match... 

 

Regards

 

Nobody cares who models the radar, there are enough talented programmers that can model a radar, if RB can find them, so can everybody else

People are more upset about how easy the risk of 3rd party work can (Still) escalate to the point their purchase becomes null and void

 

 

[rcjonessnp175]

3 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

 

Nobody cares who models the radar, there are enough talented programmers that can model a radar, if RB can find them, so can everybody else

People are more upset about how easy the risk of 3rd party work can (Still) escalate to the point their purchase becomes null and void

 

 

many care, and don't diminish that, and many care about what you said aka what happens to our purchases if modules just  become unsupported and no longer valid in dcs.  

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

21 hours ago, afnav130 said:

Razbam is done with new modules for DCS at the very least. I don't care about the MiG-23 but guess that module has been <profanity> canned. Good job ED. Anyways, if I were RB I would go freaking nuclear and lay all my cards out on the table. 

Someday the full story will come out and it will be easy to figure out who is right, and who is wrong. If I were RB no chance I'm signing any kind of NDA about any settlement. I don't think either side will come out of this looking great if we got the full story.

That is literally what has placed RB into this position in the first place, the lack of restraint. This has been an issue with RB since before DCS existed.

That is also how you render your company toxic and unable to establish professional connections. Sure, you can create an echo chamber of loyalists, but you have no hope of growth.

[Nightdare]

26 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

That is also how you render your company toxic and unable to establish professional connections. Sure, you can create an echo chamber of loyalists, but you have no hope of growth.

+1

What is funny, that it doesn't matter if it's a straight' or 'shady' company and the other is either shady or straight (or each both shady or straight)

No one wants to do business with a company that doesn't hold confidentiality in high regard, because no company wants even an honest mistake or an honest dispute to end up being publicized in the court of opinions

...because we have now 1000's of examples in THIS thread what that court might entail

[afnav130]

14 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

+1

What is funny, that it doesn't matter if it's a straight' or 'shady' company and the other is either shady or straight (or each both shady or straight)

No one wants to do business with a company that doesn't hold confidentiality in high regard, because no company wants even an honest mistake or an honest dispute to end up being publicized in the court of opinions

...because we have now 1000's of examples in THIS thread what that court might entail

Perception is reality. A lot of things in the world would have been much much better had all facts been laid out on the table beforehand. Fact of the matter is this. If ED is withholding profits made from the sale of the E model and have been for about 9 months now, then that is really, really bad. It had nothing to do with the issue at hand. 

If the lawyers are involved I wouldn't expect resolution for another 15-18 months at least. Thats the risk you run when you involve lawyers.

[Nightdare]

2 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Perception is reality

 

I hate to break it to you, but that coin didn't suddenly appear out of nowhere from behind your ear

And Ted Bundy wasn't actually injured when he asked those girls if they could help put some books in his car

 

What you perceive isn't by definition reality, it 'might' be, but we'll find out eventually

 

6 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Fact of the matter is this. If ED is withholding profits made from the sale of the E model and have been for about 9 months now, then that is really, really bad. It had nothing to do with the issue at hand. 

 

Again, that's your perception, but that's because you won't even contemplate the following:
 

You simply will not even give a thought ED might just be right

You just decided that, without taking any context into account, not paying someone is a bad thing, therefore ED must be in the wrong

As if abusing company assets for personal gain is a good thing and companies should just keep paying employees/contractors that do that

 

if RB is guilty of breaching contract, if that issue is damaging ED, it has to do with everything DCS related

Let me spell it out for you E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G DCS related, not just 1 module in development by RB, or all RB modules, but from the core game to all other 3rd party developers

In THAT situation, ED withholding payment to force RB to cease and desist would then be a GOOD thing

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Nobody cares who models the radar, there are enough talented programmers that can model a radar, if RB can find them, so can everybody else

There are plenty of people who can paint, but not everyone is Peter Paul Rubens.
As far as I can see, Galinette is special. People like that should be treasured.

[Oban]

5 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

In THAT situation, ED withholding payment to force RB to cease and desist would then be a GOOD thing

As extreme is it was, that decision would not have been taken lightly, and a risk assesment would have been carried out before taking such actions. If there's also such a clause in their contracts, again, any company would have the right to do this, and believe me, this situation isn't unique, the deferral of remuneration happens across multiple business's.

Perception V's Reality.
Anyone who has been following Razbam over their lifespan, and different platforms knows full well that Ron Zambrano is a volatile and unscrupulous individual, and that his company has a track record of shafting his customers, by abandoning projects, and platforms alike..

New DCS players more than likely don't know about the past dramas, that being said, I have nothing but praise for the DCS mosules they produced..

What has happened was handled badly from both sided from a customer point of view, as nobody is looking at the issue from a business perspective.

For any sort of Conflict management to be resolved, there has to be some common ground, and areas where concessions can/need to be made... in this case, there's no common ground, and neither side seems willing to hold out olive branches so that the consumer gets what they want, both sides are solely interested in their respective business's, and if you can't kiss and make up, then the inevitable split and seperation will occur, dragging such things out is bad for any relationship, what's better for both business's is quick divorce, and then everyone can move on, and try and pick up the pieces.

19 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

There are plenty of people who can paint, but not everyone is Peter Paul Rubens.
As far as I can see, Galinette is special. People like that should be treasured.

Very true, but if he's that special, then someone else will offer him work, he wouldn't be sitting idle.

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

 Galinette is special. People like that should be treasured.

Sorry, I don't quite follow? Is Gallinette an employee of Razbam?

[Mizzy]

On 1/15/2025 at 4:36 PM, afnav130 said:

Razbam is done with new modules for DCS at the very least. 

 

In my opinion, this is good news.

[afnav130]

1 hour ago, Nightdare said:

 

I hate to break it to you, but that coin didn't suddenly appear out of nowhere from behind your ear

And Ted Bundy wasn't actually injured when he asked those girls if they could help put some books in his car

 

What you perceive isn't by definition reality, it 'might' be, but we'll find out eventually

 

 

Again, that's your perception, but that's because you won't even contemplate the following:
 

You simply will not even give a thought ED might just be right

You just decided that, without taking any context into account, not paying someone is a bad thing, therefore ED must be in the wrong

As if abusing company assets for personal gain is a good thing and companies should just keep paying employees/contractors that do that

 

if RB is guilty of breaching contract, if that issue is damaging ED, it has to do with everything DCS related

Let me spell it out for you E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G DCS related, not just 1 module in development by RB, or all RB modules, but from the core game to all other 3rd party developers

In THAT situation, ED withholding payment to force RB to cease and desist would then be a GOOD thing

Of course ED could be in the right, just I lean the other way as of now. It's a little bit closer but....however you are wholly incorrect.

If the E model had NOTHING to do with whatever issue was being had with RB ( which is seemingly without questions), then cutting payment for that specific module that had nothing to do with it is asinine. And they keep selling it, and profiting from it.  You can cease and desist work on another project all day long. Happens all the time in industry and that doesn't mean it affects every single other project.

So no, you are incorrect. ED took the nuclear option, RB got stunned by that and thus reacted as a cornered dog will. 

30 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Sorry, I don't quite follow? Is Gallinette an employee of Razbam?

Not anymore.

29 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

In my opinion, this is good news.

Not really. As it stands now the E model is one of the best modules in DCS. This is why all the cards need to be on the table now or in the future. Every single thing needs to be layed out so comments such as this are valid, or the complete opposite. 

Edited January 16 by afnav130

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

40 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Sorry, I don't quite follow? Is Gallinette an employee of Razbam?

Yes, or used to be - if you can believe the drama on Discord. He's the one who wrote the radar code for the Mirage 2000 and F-15E.

[rob10]

15 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

 And they keep selling it, and profiting from it.

You really think that this money is going straight into ED's bank accounts never to be seen again?  Do you not realize that (whatever the outcome) the money collected and any interest on that money will be accounted for in the settling of this issue?  I would be very surprised if any money's collected aren't being put in trust at this point until it's solved.  In the end the money may go to Razbam or if it's decided Razbam net owes ED then ED may get to keep it.  If it comes out in Razbam's favour, then ED would be on the hook for lost sales if they didn't keep it up.

Edited January 16 by rob10