waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[BigBorner]

31 minutes ago, draconus said:

But there is no such statement and what does that tell you?

That I probably won’t get refunded if it gets down the drain. First question and ping could have been overlooked. Second probably not. But maybe it got drowned in useless gatekeeping of questions I’m allowed to ask…

Edited June 6, 2024 by BigBorner

[Tazer83]

I hope there becomes a good solid resolution soon. It was bad enough with Veao with the hawk which I wasn't happy about when it come to no refund. This issue has been ongoing now for a while and I think its about time you come up with a reasonable resolution. Without us there wouldn't be no modules and once again its "US" that fund the ongoing developments for all modules. Once again the customer is left in the dark, not really happy about this when I own almost all of Razbams modules only to find I like many others on here will no doubt lose a couple of hundred quid if there isn't some kind of resolution to the matter. First time with Veao I thought it was a one off but second time around with a different developer has certainly put me right off with any future modules,  Sorry but that's my opinion.

[lead dispenser]

11 hours ago, Atazar SPN said:

What is the trick exactly? Stop product development by not receiving a salary for your work?

They didn't just stop paying them for no reason .you're only thinking this way because razbam went public an you have only heard 1 side .but nobody justs stop paying a partner in a working situation for no reason. If razbam broke contract then that's what happens we don't know .if i broke contract building something for you would you still pay me for it or would you hold of untill id put right what i did wrong .would i be in the right if i told more people about our deal then you did ... the stunt i'm referring to is throwing you toys  posting all over the net an making things worse . if they were to leave who would do business with them when you risk not only them not finishing but making a PR nightmare for your business  . .No these guys fix this or they are finished 

[stonewall197922]

1 минуту назад, Atazar SPN сказал:

The only reason to stop paying a partner is if your partner stops doing his or her job. For other problems there are other solutions.

Otherwise you have what is happening.

You`re wrong sometimes other solutions is not applicable, or the side that violated agreement terms ignoring you.

[Atazar SPN]

hace 3 horas, Swiso dijo:

You keep assuming that RB is clean in this thing....why ? Are you really so sure ? Do you have any insight ? If so enlighten us...

In all you posts, never once you take into consideration the possible IP thing...

 

And you assume RB is guilty. I don't ask him why, because I don't care. I simply respect the rest of the opinions.

[lead dispenser]

1 minute ago, Atazar SPN said:

The only reason to stop paying a partner is if your partner stops doing his or her job. For other problems there are other solutions.

Otherwise you have what is happening.

we don't what the reason is.        so you are saying in my situation with no more info other then what we have heard  if  i broke contract building something for you bad enough you felt the need to stop paying me your sayin  id still get paid an you would continue to pay me even though id broken a legal contract with you . interesting

[Atazar SPN]

Ego and arrogance are destroying this community.

hace 3 minutos, lead dispenser dijo:

we don't what the reason is.        so you are saying in my situation with no more info other then what we have heard  if  i broke contract building something for you bad enough you felt the need to stop paying me your sayin  id still get paid an you would continue to pay me even though id broken a legal contract with you . interesting

I repeat, there is no reason to stop paying a partner while they do their job.

If there is no reason, the reason does not matter.

I said that for other types of problems there are other types of solutions and you still don't want to understand it.

[Shibbyland]

The links to purchase on RAZBAMs websites no longer work. Apparently RAZBAM posting pictures of their aircraft flying into the sunset on discord. Not looking good. 

 

[nick10]

Hi I’ve heard some are getting refunds. 
 

how would I go about asking for one please? I’d like to buy the Kiowa but I’m reluctant given this strike eagle situation. 
 

thanks 

[lead dispenser]

10 minutes ago, Atazar SPN said:

I repeat, there is no reason to stop paying a partner while they do their job.

If there is no reason, the reason does not matter.

I said that for other types of problems there are other types of solutions and you still don't want to understand it.

you don't seem to understand basic business practices these people are not over the back fence mates they are business partners an legal contracts are written for this very reason .

they wouldn't stop payment unless they were legally obligated to do so 

Edited June 6, 2024 by lead dispenser

[Shibbyland]

2 minutes ago, nick10 said:

Hi I’ve heard some are getting refunds. 
 

how would I go about asking for one please? I’d like to buy the Kiowa but I’m reluctant given this strike eagle situation. 
 

thanks 

Just go through support, I think I did mine through the purchases section of support. You will probably need to provide your order number which you can find under keys in your module. You won't get any actual money back tho, it'll be store credit if you get anything at all.

The more I'm digging into this the more I'm thinking I wish I hadn't bought the F4 either. I'm gonna stop buying any modules at all for a while. It's all looking a bit unstable and they're just too expensive to risk sinking more money into.

[Snappy]

3 hours ago, Romandv said:

No, I didn't miss the point, I see posts like this all the time and they are all of the same type. There is no violation of the ecosystem, there is one specific case and that's it. You can't destroy something that isn't working properly to begin with. Lest you think I'm defending ED I'll just ask them some questions:

1) Where are the outputs after Hawk?
2) Why don't you have code from RAZBAM aircraft?
3) Why your products bought on Steam I can't return? 
4) Why are customers not protected from companies like RAZBAM? 
5) Why are RAZBAM modules still being sold?

I could go on with this list for a long time, but I won't. I have no prejudices about ED and RB - I like DCS, I liked my F15E/M2000/AV8B, but, granted, but I don't see any point in mixing it all together, and I've already drawn my conclusions specifically of each.  I just don't see why one particular case can change an opinion relative to anything done by third parties in DCS and the ED themselves. 

 

You should read more carefully. I did not write "destroy" ecosystem , I wrote "fragile".  Fragile means easily disturbed or damaged.

As to your argument that this is only one specific case between Razbam and ED and has nothing to do with the rest of the ecosystem, you might want to think again, especially in light of your own questions to ED, questions which are by the way indicators of a fragile system.

There can easily be other scenarios with other developers that could lead to similar situation/outcome .

Just one example,  some developer teams are pretty small and flightsim developement is a niche within a niche , so sudden death / illness of key personel, or events like  a war ( I should not have to explain given current events), loss of data (happened even to Heatblur) , could easily lead to a completely unintended folding or breakdown of a developer team by circumstances beyond their control.

In light of your very own questions, you gotta ask yourself, what happens with such a module then, when ED apparently does apparently not always have the source code and/or ressources to continue developement themselves, bought products can not easily be returned and easily become broken by DCS updates , abandoned products are still sold without disclaimer and there is little customer production?

How the Razbam thing went down just shows that there were no adequate provisions in place. And the next time a studio might  fail for completely different reason and without any bad intention or previous argument on either side. Without adequate provision ,it is a fragile system for the customer and you as the customer will again draw the short straw.

But we are getting off-topic, like you said, you already made your own decisions in regards to this and so did I.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Snappy

[Pipe]

25 minutes ago, nick10 said:

Hi I’ve heard some are getting refunds. 
 

how would I go about asking for one please? I’d like to buy the Kiowa but I’m reluctant given this strike eagle situation. 
 

thanks 

It’s not a refund, you get store credit. No module in DCS= Strike Eagle

[Raviar]

"Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom." - Thomas Jefferson

As much as I dislike gossip and speculation, I equally detest total silence and irresponsibility. There is a post on Reddit discussing the Strike Eagle refund, Enigma creating a video, and an announcement by Razbam in the Discord. Is it not the right time to inform users and customers about any updates on this module? What is the future of this module?

Edited June 6, 2024 by Raviar

[HWasp]

3 hours ago, stonewall197922 said:

Usually when your parnter has breached agreement terms, you hold any payments (if that viaolation is critical, or atleast payments under specific agreements). Then you notify him, that payments is on hold until your partner return to operate accrordng to concluded agreements. Why you must pay to company, which is violating agreement terms? To loose more money? You dont know actual agreement terms between ED and RB. By holding payments you forcing your partner to act accoring to agreement. And minimizing damage to your company. If your partner not intended to act accrording to concluded agreements, which he signed. So he must take full responsibility for decisions, actions or incations.

 

Minimizing damage? Does this look like as if either party tried to minimize damage?

It would be interesting to see, how much revenue both parties will loose on this in the next 3-5 years compared to whatever the conflict is on about.

Of course we'll never know and they will not research this topic either most likely...

[stonewall197922]

1 минуту назад, HWasp сказал:

Minimizing damage? Does this look like as if either party tried to minimize damage?

It would be interesting to see, how much revenue both parties will loose on this in the next 3-5 years compared to whatever the conflict is on about.

Of course we'll never know and they will not research this topic either most likely...

About minimizing damage -  only top management knows all. Emploees like M2m, and other can only spread rumors. 

About loses: we will never know for sure. But the whole info that is currently available mainly rumors, not facts.

[Swiso]

1 hour ago, Atazar SPN said:

Ego and arrogance are destroying this community.

I repeat, there is no reason to stop paying a partner while they do their job.

If there is no reason, the reason does not matter.

I said that for other types of problems there are other types of solutions and you still don't want to understand it.

Even in case of IP ? 

And about the "while they do their job"....after 7 years, I repeat 7 years the Harrier is still without a proper manual...

Please.

You talk about "Ego and arrogance" I suppose you talk about RZ...why he hasn't started a legal claim against ED about not being paid then instead of going ballistic on Discord ? Is that a proper way to act or operate ? 

Please.

Then the question....why in the hell ED should stop paying RB if he hasn't done anything wrong and for no apparent reason ?

Just to create a situation so detrimental like this one, just to have fun ? 

Would you do that ? Honestly..

I don't assume anything, but from what I saw and heard, I am leaning toward RB being in bad faith.

 

Edited June 6, 2024 by Swiso

[HWasp]

3 minutes ago, stonewall197922 said:

About minimizing damage -  only top management knows all. Emploees like M2m, and other can only spread rumors. 

About loses: we will never know for sure. But the whole info that is currently available mainly rumors, not facts.

Well, development stopped, PR damage is done, those are facts, and some RB devs left the scene, that is also a quite certain unfortunetaly.

What exactly the conflict is about, that is the topic more or less in the realm of rumors, that is true,  but that was not my point. 

[stonewall197922]

2 минуты назад, HWasp сказал:

Well, development stopped, PR damage is done, those are facts, and some RB devs left the scene, that is also a quite certain unfortunetaly.

What exactly the conflict is about, that is the topic more or less in the realm of rumors, that is true,  but that was not my point. 

Just relax, and see what happened next. Its just a game. Yes money was invested. It will be sad to loose it. But life didnt end with game.

[scommander2]

Please check the following link and the thread:

Yup, I saw his YouTube. 

[Romandv]

57 минут назад, Snappy сказал:

How the Razbam thing went down just shows that there were no adequate provisions in place. And the next time a studio might  fail for completely different reason and without any bad intention or previous argument on either side. Without adequate provision ,it is a fragile system for the customer and you as the customer will again draw the short straw.

 

 

What happened to RAZBAM says only RAZBAM, I repeat - all these assumptions about other devs are just substitution of concepts and in no way relate to this situation. What is happening now is not some accident, but a stable hypertrophied attitude towards business on the part of RB. Since my English does not allow me to convey the information in a clear way, I will summarise it briefly: I believe that RAZBAM management is not capable of conducting business communications with contractors and users. 
Two links, the rest can be found on your own, if necessary:

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/9ovdvo/razbam_dev_prowler_threatens_to_sue_a_fellow/?utm_source=embedv2&utm_medium=post_embed&utm_content=post_title&embed_host_url=https://forum.dcs.world/index.php

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/iprhsf/razbam_blames_ed_and_their_customers_for/?utm_source=embedv2&utm_medium=post_embed&utm_content=whitespace&embed_host_url=https://forum.dcs.world/index.php

 

I don't remember where they came from anymore, from P3D or X-Plane, but I know it was the same thing we see now - problems.

 

 

 

[HWasp]

11 minutes ago, stonewall197922 said:

Just relax, and see what happened next. Its just a game. Yes money was invested. It will be sad to loose it. But life didnt end with game.

You are right, it is not something to go too crazy about.

Actually, on contrary to many people here, I don't care about that money at all. What I'm frustrated a about is the possibility of loosing some good modules I enjoyed flying and the seemingly high possibility of loosing the MiG-23 for which I've been waiting for a long time.

[Avimimus]

The other question regarding contracts:

• If Razbam were to hypothetically shutter... what is the state of their licenses with their various dev teams?
• Would it be possible for any of the assets, coding or research to be transferred to a new developer? Could their personnel leave to form new teams? Or do they have non-compete agreements?

Of course, we probably don't have access to that information any more than we know the contractual relationship with ED - but it might prove critical if some of the developers want to continue (or recover some revenue from existing work) and the company leaders don't.

Personally, I think we shouldn't be speculating too much. But I did feel like mentioning this additional angle, as it might be significant.

[Rainmaker]

1 hour ago, lead dispenser said:

you don't seem to understand basic business practices these people are not over the back fence mates they are business partners an legal contracts are written for this very reason .

they wouldn't stop payment unless they were legally obligated to do so 

 

Perhaps look into the high possibility, based on pretty credible reports, that this isn't the first time this has happened before 'assuming' everything has to be a certain way.  

[lead dispenser]

1 minute ago, Rainmaker said:

Perhaps look into the high possibility, based on pretty credible reports, that this isn't the first time this has happened before 'assuming' everything has to be a certain way. 

credible reports of what being done by who an whos reports are you referencing ?