waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[AJaromir]

Btw that review bombing on Steam is also frustrating.

12 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The M2000 use DCS Military versions, no entretainment DCS... and RAZBAM has none control over the core or get licences to the military / profesional versions. If French Air force use the M2000C for training, ED has require to aproval them, no RAZBAM.

A old video from "military market versions"... 16 years old about MCS versions.

 

 

Yes. Because all contracts are with ED. The 3rd party developer stuff is sold via ED page. Not via their own page. ED is like publisher.

[OldFlyer]

1 hour ago, nessuno0505 said:

It's not a matter of money: I do not own any of the Razbam modules so my DCS is not affected.

Why do you keep posting in this thread then?

[Silver_Dragon]

2 minutes ago, AJaromir said:

Btw that review bombing on Steam is also frustrating.

Yes. Because all contracts are with ED. The 3rd party developer stuff is sold via ED page. Not via their own page. ED is like publisher.

Correction, the ED "entretainment" version has sold on the DCS World page, no the Military Contracts... has diferent markets with diferent IPs.

[Capn kamikaze]

This is just fraud at this point!

[AJaromir]

Actually Razbam, HB, e.t.c... are 2nd party developers from view of the ED because they have contracts with ED. Pure 3rd party developer would be developer of the A-4E mod. Or like addon developers for X-plane, MSFS2020,... - In short they are independent on publisher.

Edited June 6, 2024 by AJaromir

[Silver_Dragon]

2 minutes ago, AJaromir said:

Actually Razbam, HB, e.t.c... are 2nd party developers from view of the ED because they have contracts with ED. Pure 3rd party developer would be developer of the A-4E mod.

Mod Creators has no access to SDK/TDK tools... that required create a bussines, sign a contract with ED to get 3rd Party status, get access to SDK/TDK and hability to send products on ED market.

[AJaromir]

It is a third party to the user because the user is contracting with ED and not with other developers. But ED is the publisher in this case. So there is the same or similar relationship as, for example, between Electronic Arts and game studios like Bioware, Dice, EA Capital Games,.... Although ED doesn't own them (unlike EA, who owns the studios in question), they more or less act as if they do, because they can't do otherwise. I understand the principle that ED wants money from the sale of other modules as well, because the core game is free and therefore providing the SDK is conditional on a contract. But that makes the developer in question such a pseudo property of Eagle Dynamics.

Edited June 6, 2024 by AJaromir

[Grodin]

8 hours ago, fragal said:

I got my eagle refund and i received store $ not miles, I think for now, I will hold off on buying anything "new" outside of what I've got on preorder "chinook and afghan" until the whole RB thing is resolved i can always rebuy the SE later.

 

Do you need to provide specific reason to get the refund? Think i'm getting the Kiowa if i get my f15 refunded.

[Major_Mayhem]

Just to be blunt, I don't think the issue is going to get resolved unless ED takes full control of the Razbam modules and continues to develop them or gives them to another reputable vendor to do with such with like Heatblur.

Razbam has been spotty at supporting their existing modules before the current drama and I have no faith they will continue to be around in year or two once the dust settles. I kind of suspect they are having insolvency issues as is.

I really wish Eagle Dynamics will Discontinue selling Razbam products until the issue with them is adequately resolved.

By continuing to sell spotty Razbam Products that either are breaking or will break due to the lack of support Eagle Dynamics is putting pure greed over their customers and the customer experience.

Way to many people (Myself Included) are asking for refunds on the F-15E and other Razbam Products. It is utterly IRRESPONSIBLE to continue to sell these products.

The only other alternative customers have is to start a class action lawsuit against the parties involved, and that really won't do much other then maybe get you a store credit refund (Probably a partial refund at that) and make some lawyers a lot of money.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Major_Mayhem

[Major_Mayhem]

I have no faith in Razbam and no faith that this issue is going to get solved in a timely manor.

If the issue between Razbam and ED is not resolved hopefully ED with take full control of Razbam modules and either continue to develop them or give/sell/assign them to reputable vendor that will, like possibly heatblur.

Baring that or Mass refunds I think from a consumers perspective all we can do is start a class action lawsuit against the parties involved but as I stated in another post all that is going to do at best is get everyone a refund (most likely a partial) on their purchased Razbam products and make some lawyers a lot of money.

So Dear Eagle Dynamics ... How about you do everyone a favor specially new customers.

STOP SELLING RAZBAM PRODUCTS!

Just De-list them for purchase, at least until this issue is resolved. By continuing to sell these products you are telling your customers that you don't care about them or their user experience you are just in it for the money.

Be the bigger better person.

[Silver_Dragon]

18 minutes ago, AJaromir said:

It is a third party to the user because the user is contracting with ED and not with other developers. But ED is the publisher in this case. So there is the same or similar relationship as, for example, between Electronic Arts and game studios like Bioware, Dice, EA Capital Games,.... Although ED doesn't own them (unlike EA, who owns the studios in question), they more or less act as if they do, because they can't do otherwise. I understand the principle that ED wants money from the sale of other modules as well, because the core game is free and therefore providing the SDK is conditional on a contract. But that makes the developer in question such a pseudo property of Eagle Dynamics.

You has ussing the ED engine, tools, content and licencing to build profitable products (aproved by ED), with a EULA, rules, etc, as any licensed product from a content provider on actual simulation or develop market (MSFS, XP, P3D, 3DS max, Adobe, etc). Remember RB has not the only 3rd party here, has another 20 bussines companies using DCS engine and tools to build contens, as some big simulation 3rd party companies as Orbx. they has none a "pseodo property" of ED.

[AJaromir]

2 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

You has ussing the ED engine, tools, content and licencing to build profitable products (aproved by ED), with a EULA, rules, etc, as any licensed product from a content provider on actual simulation or develop market (MSFS, XP, P3D, 3DS max, Adobe, etc). Remember RB has not the only 3rd party here, has another 20 bussines companies using DCS engine and tools to build contens, as some big simulation 3rd party companies as Orbx. they has none a "pseodo property" of ED.

Still the content is published by ED and not by themself. Heatblur is the only one I know who sells the keys independently on the ED store.

[Silver_Dragon]

4 minutes ago, AJaromir said:

Still the content is published by ED and not by themself. Heatblur is the only one I know who sells the keys independently on the ED store.

VEAO sell keys on the past on your store.... before close by the debacle of a P-40 module and your Hawk.T1 before "we leave them to other more profitable markets" and go to the bankrupt.... all the keys use the ED system generate by them, build a store (as Steam) has none a problem, but you get a part of your product sold to ED (not sure the quantity) as when you sold a product on the Steam market.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Silver_Dragon

[OnkelFester]

What I don't understand...
If getting paid is RAZBAM's issue, WHY would they do the one thing that guarantee's they never get paid for the work they did? AND cutoff any potential income coming in from projects already "complete"?

What exactly was RAZBAM doing to pay employee's between modules? 
Did RAZBAM not have any long term financial plan to operate well into the future?

RAZBAM says ED isn't communicating.
ED says they are communicating.

Can both claims be true? 

What an absolute sh show.
I'm just glad that us, the consumers, are being held hostage for modules we purchased in good faith.

[MAXsenna]

This is a fair statement and the only one anybody should expect or feel entitled to.  This is a private contractual dispute between two parties and despite our personal investments into the community and the products at stake, these are not issues that will be resolved in the court of public opinion. We just have to give it time, hope for the best and wait it out.  That doesn't mean that we cannot voice our concerns and hopes for a preferred outcome, or that ED has no obligation, in good faith and conscience, to post periodic updates like the one quoted above. 
So for now...fingers and toes remain crossed. Who is with me?

I am!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[AJaromir]

If Razbam owns its products, then it has every right to have them removed from the ED website at its own request. Razbam itself doesn't seem to want to do that, or else it probably would have happened a long time ago. I think if RB cares about protecting the user from buying potential abandonware, they should do so.

Edited June 6, 2024 by AJaromir

[Horns]

54 minutes ago, AJaromir said:

It is a third party to the user because the user is contracting with ED and not with other developers. But ED is the publisher in this case. So there is the same or similar relationship as, for example, between Electronic Arts and game studios like Bioware, Dice, EA Capital Games,.... Although ED doesn't own them (unlike EA, who owns the studios in question), they more or less act as if they do, because they can't do otherwise. I understand the principle that ED wants money from the sale of other modules as well, because the core game is free and therefore providing the SDK is conditional on a contract. But that makes the developer in question such a pseudo property of Eagle Dynamics.

 

1st two parties are parties to sale contracts - end user and ED. Because Razbam, Heatblur etc cannot create a contract directly with the user they are still third parties ie they are not parties to the direct contract. I hear what you're saying, but our third parties are not directly funded by ED - that's the difference between that relationship and the one between, say, Ubisoft and Massive Entertainment. If one of our 3rd party devs made a module that didn't sell a single copy they wouldn't get a nickel from ED. If no one buys Star Wars Outlaws, Massive Entertainment's costs are still met by Ubisoft.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Horns
Last sentence made clearer

[OSIW]

Maybe they`re talking but only through lawyers. Then both claims would be true.

[Horns]

18 minutes ago, AJaromir said:

Still the content is published by ED and not by themself. Heatblur is the only one I know who sells the keys independently on the ED store.

Sorry, missed this one - Heatblur sell keys, not their software. What you buy from Heatblur is still subject to the EULA between the end user (customer) and ED, Heatblur are not party to that. It's like buying phone credit from the supermarket - if the code they sell you has already been redeemed you claim your refund from the supermarket, if you have a problem with the product you speak to your phone company.

[Silver_Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Horns said:

 If one of our 3rd party devs made a module that didn't sell a single copy they wouldn't get a nickel from ED. If no one buys Star Wars Outlaws Massive's costs are still met by Ubisoft.

That appears on the past (VEAO P-40) with start to sell module keys on own store.... and "canceling" the module before release them, devolving all money to the key owners... ED was out from that debacle, was a complete risk situation to VEAO.

[Horns]

7 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

That appears on the past (VEAO P-40) with start to sell module keys on own store.... and "canceling" the module before release them, devolving all money to the key owners... ED was out from that debacle, was a complete risk situation to VEAO.

Yeah absolutely, that would be different, then the first two parties would be VEAO and the customer, with ED as the third party… that would get messy

 

Edit: I read that completely wrong. Yeah, the situation with the module keys would be VEAO in the position of the supermarket selling bad phone credit, since the keys would never have worked

Edited June 6, 2024 by Horns
Wrong read first pass

[Futurecvsh]

Honestly, I don't care about the internal disputes between Razbam and ED, we as customers must be guaranteed the integrity of a product that is sold to us! and what is happening is a real shame and abuse for customers! I WANT A REFUND IN ED MILES at least from the F-15!!! to exchange it for other products! We haven't had any updates for months!!! ENOUGH NOW!!

And one more thing and this goes to ED, I don't know how RAZBAM products are still on sale today! It seems ridiculous to me!! You should cancel them temporarily AT LEAST until something is finally resolved!!

 

Edited June 6, 2024 by Futurecvsh

[IanC58]

Ok so this is now obviously a bug as products we have purchased have no ongoing support or updates, unless you guys actually start telling us the way forward, what is the refund policy as we purchased in good faith that the modules would over time be completed and not be stagnant at early access stage.

This topic is not going to go away unless you actually give us the current info or give us a refund option then remove the modules?

[boedha68]

After the VEAO debacle ED changed the rules I remember this to protect the customers if Something Goes wrong that ED all the Rights have to take it all over. I never recieved Something back from the missing HAWK. So I believe that the customer is priority One to have no concerns on Development or bugfixes. Just give it time. My Humble opinion. In the mean time fly and have fun.

Edited June 6, 2024 by boedha68

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

3 people at least on this page should be aware ed removing razbam modules from the store is a breach of contract. 

My understanding is ed must wait till razbam removes them from their own store first