What did I think of Kiowa? It needs to improve in some areas!

[Hotdognz]

Just had a fantastic flight, didnt look at an out side view at all ;), was too busy having fun with the fantastic flight model and systems, worth every penny

[Dangerzone]

33 minutes ago, Hotdognz said:

Just had a fantastic flight, didnt look at an out side view at all ;), was too busy having fun with the fantastic flight model and systems, worth every penny

I realise I've been looking at this entire thread the wrong way.

All the negative critisisms in this thread is actually a strong endorsement for this model. I'm not hearing anything about systems missing, flight model being trash, etc. It's mostly pixel peeping. You'd think there'd be more to critisise. It's a bit like someone complaining that their new motorcycle doesn't have USB. Sure - for some people that might be the main thing, but for most others - it's a minor thing compared to everything else. If this is the worst thing to complain about, it means that everything else must be pretty smooth!

Endorsement received! Now I'm looking forward to having some flights in this thing this weekend!

Edited June 7, 2024 by Dangerzone

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Consumer expectations vary, obviously. The point here is about sales principles, clarity, regulation, standardisation, so consumers don't speculate and debate. I think that's lacking. That's why you have things like RB products still being sold with no cautionary note.   

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

3 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

I realise I've been looking at this entire thread the wrong way.

All the negative critisisms in this thread is actually a strong endorsement for this model. I'm not hearing anything about systems missing, flight model being trash, etc. It's mostly pixel peeping. You'd think there'd be more to critisise. It's a bit like someone complaining that their new motorcycle doesn't have USB. Sure - for some people that might be the main thing, but for most others - it's a minor thing compared to everything else. If this is the worst thing to complain about, it means that everything else must be pretty smooth!

Endorsement received! Now I'm looking forward to having some flights in this thing this weekend!

 

There is a hilarious issue where the FM does a mischief and you can fly at stupid air speeds sideways, but that's so far out of the envelope, it's impossible to expect. It's good to find these bugs, though.

Overall, it's pretty good. Once the first patch drops and fixes somethings? Good recommend.

[Dangerzone]

34 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

There is a hilarious issue where the FM does a mischief and you can fly at stupid air speeds sideways, but that's so far out of the envelope, it's impossible to expect. It's good to find these bugs, though.

Overall, it's pretty good. Once the first patch drops and fixes somethings? Good recommend.

Oh seriously? I need to try this before it gets patched.   Thanks! 

[Moxica]

After the surprising first impression, I now rate the importance of:
Weird reflective shine on metal switches.
Drawn shoelaces on pilot/copilot
Cartoonish .50 gunsound.

And I find that all in all it is a damn fine flying machine. 
On day two I started to feel the love.
Looking forward to this rainy weekend.

[average_pilot]

The levels of quality we are seeing in DCS require big teams and lots of resources. I hope the Kiowa sells well and helps Polychop grow.

[Teeps]

Last night I flew a Kiowa instant action mission, all was good and right with the world.  Then I flew a Phantom instant action mission and frame rates tanked. There's a price to pay for the very high level of detail in the F4. I'm finding that the Kiowa has hit a great balance between performance and shiny stuff, for me.

[average_pilot]

Ironically the Phantom runs remarkably smooth on my computer while the Kiowa is somewhat heavy 

[LuseKofte]

1 hour ago, Moxica said:

day two I started to feel the love

Funny, I bought it because it is a chopper, right? Ain’t possible to have to many of them. But I have no recollection nor feeling of connection to its service, no attachment whatsoever to this thing at all. 
Seen all the videos, did not help much for my motivation. But once starting, after a while, it grows on you. I can’t even say why, but I love it. 

[Moxica]

16 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

Funny, I bought it because it is a chopper, right? Ain’t possible to have to many of them. But I have no recollection nor feeling of connection to its service, no attachment whatsoever to this thing at all. 
Seen all the videos, did not help much for my motivation. But once starting, after a while, it grows on you. I can’t even say why, but I love it. 

Mastering its elements and functions one at the time gives gratification.
The degree of joy correlates with the quality of the implementation/execution.
The kiowa is well executed, and Level of joy reflect that.
(Although the Mast Mounted Sight with TV and FLIR are sluggish, and veer off on its own sometimes. I might report as bug)

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

6 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

All the negative critisisms in this thread is actually a strong endorsement for this model.

Mostly, yes. The things that people are complaining about are things that are not game breaking and basically superficial things - aside from some FM bugs in edge cases that I’m sure will get fixed sooner than later. PolyChop is doing very well cleaning up their tarnished reputation and deserves to be commended for that.

I think the main thing comes down to ‘EA vs full release’. For a full release, people expected more missions included, better textures etc - that is understandable. The Mirage F1 for example also has low detail textures but far fewer people complain about that since it’s an EA module.

When PolyChop asks the full price of a complete module people expect more. I can understand that, but in the end that comes down to semantics since I doubt it’s going to make a difference in the long run.

1 hour ago, Teeps said:

There's a price to pay for the very high level of detail in the F4. I'm finding that the Kiowa has hit a great balance between performance and shiny stuff, for me.

The framerate in the F-4 is 25-30% higher than in the Kiowa for me

[LuseKofte]

37 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

 

The framerate in the F-4 is 25-30% higher than in the Kiowa for me

I have the F4 but not flown it, I am not a expert in setting. But can that be close to ground? Can that be a factor?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

8 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I have the F4 but not flown it, I am not a expert in setting. But can that be close to ground? Can that be a factor?

No I ruled that out: I put several modules on the runway in an empty mission with nothing else present, and the framerate in the F-4 under those circumstances is 25-30% higher. In the air the difference is even larger.

[ThorBrasil]

2 hours ago, Teeps said:

Last night I flew a Kiowa instant action mission, all was good and right with the world.  Then I flew a Phantom instant action mission and frame rates tanked. There's a price to pay for the very high level of detail in the F4. I'm finding that the Kiowa has hit a great balance between performance and shiny stuff, for me.

 

[shagrat]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb ThorBrasil:

With this thought in mind, we should receive the updated external 3D model with high-resolution textures in the next 5 to 6 years? Then the module should be released in early access with a discount of 30% or more.

 

 

I highly recommend you  don't buy it. It isn't what you are looking for.

The focus isn't on the rivets, and appearance of textures from 20-30cm away, which seems to be of utmost importance, to you.

I personally prefer the focus on actual flying and working with the systems and especially the environment while I look outside. The cockpit is pretty decent. It looks very close to the real thing.

Only issue that bugs me currently, is the L2MUMS doesn't export to a separate screen, only the MFDs content. The L2MUMS page doesn't.

Lot if fun, flying a module that's combat ready (complete system wise).

[YoYo]

2 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I think the main thing comes down to ‘EA vs full release’. For a full release, people expected more missions included, better textures etc - that is understandable ... 

When PolyChop asks the full price of a complete module people expect more. I can understand that, but in the end that comes down to semantics since I doubt it’s going to make a difference in the long run.

That's exactly the point. The meaning of "no EA" and full release is much more binding at full price. It's no wonder that some people simply expect more for more money. In another situation, they would probably wave their hand and wait for the problem or suggestion to be solved. You may feel that Polychop simply did not provide us the clear information about status and that it is more about earning as much as possible. Honestly, I would prefer such information, just honest information - "We tried to make the model as best as we could, you may probably find some things to improve at the beginning, as always, but because the production took so much time and cost us a lot, we decided to release it at full price. If you want to support our project buy it, if not, wait a few months for the all improvements". I think that such a short message before release would simply be more honest for us, than saying it's a final product, without EA (means free of bugs), which implies high quality and full functionality. 

I also think that the very model of publishing modules and maps for DCS has prepared us for this. For many years, it has been said that this is the period of EA, so this is how many things are explained - deficiencies, bugs, lack of a campaign or whatever. The holy grail is supposed to be "no EA" so everyone believes that this is already a high level.

Of course, I keep my fingers crossed for further development.

Edited June 7, 2024 by YoYo

[LuseKofte]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

No I ruled that out: I put several modules on the runway in an empty mission with nothing else present, and the framerate in the F-4 under those circumstances is 25-30% higher. In the air the difference is even larger.

I experience this in Syria map for some reason. 
I cannot see the Kiowa is lighter than any other module. But I still got to look into if it’s harder. Kind of in the middle of learning it. 

[LuseKofte]

14 minutes ago, YoYo said:

That's exactly the point. The meaning of "no EA" and full release is much more binding at full price. It's no wonder that some people simply expect more for more money

Well the hysteria can be explained, but it still hysteria. 
I go along there is some odd visuals like switches. But sitting in the cockpit it is adequate up to nice textures. 
I find it pretty similar as the real thing. I do not fly with pilots on. So I won’t comment on shoelaces. I find it to be a good chopper worth 70$ even with my <profanity>ty currency. The systems are well modeled. It fly like a dream. 
what we seen just hours after release was hysteria among masses. No way any of these people had hours enough in it to put any criticism worth paying attention to. 
There were videos and pictures enough to show what you got before purchase. So no one was scammed into buying it, no one

[ThorBrasil]

39 minutes ago, shagrat said:

I highly recommend you  don't buy it. It isn't what you are looking for.

The focus isn't on the rivets, and appearance of textures from 20-30cm away, which seems to be of utmost importance, to you.

I personally prefer the focus on actual flying and working with the systems and especially the environment while I look outside. The cockpit is pretty decent. It looks very close to the real thing.

Only issue that bugs me currently, is the L2MUMS doesn't export to a separate screen, only the MFDs content. The L2MUMS page doesn't.

Lot if fun, flying a module that's combat ready (complete system wise).

Do you know what people's biggest problem is? Something is wrong and they do everything they can to cover up and sweep all the problems of the launch under the rug. Honesty is one of the most important values for people. If you read everything I wrote, you would know that I bought the Kiowa. Don't try to cover up Polychop's mistakes.

 

22 minutes ago, YoYo said:

That's exactly the point. The meaning of "no EA" and full release is much more binding at full price. It's no wonder that some people simply expect more for more money. In another situation, they would probably wave their hand and wait for the problem or suggestion to be solved. You may feel that Polychop simply did not provide us the clear information about status and that it is more about earning as much as possible. Honestly, I would prefer such information, just honest information - "We tried to make the model as best as we could, you may probably find some things to improve at the beginning, as always, but because the production took so much time and cost us a lot, we decided to release it at full price. If you want to support our project buy it, if not, wait a few months for the all improvements". I think that such a short message before release would simply be more honest for us, than saying it's a final product, without EA (means free of bugs), which implies high quality and full functionality. Of course, I keep my fingers crossed for further development.

 

Transparency is the best thing that exists between a company and its customers. This whole discussion would be resolved if everything was made clear. Polychop didn't say anything about it, either before or after. The right thing to do would be for them to come out in public and apologize and commit to correcting all the problems mentioned, but I highly doubt that will happen. I hope it does and I end up getting my ass kicked. I hope so! I'd rather be wrong and have a product that's worth the price.

5 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

Well the hysteria can be explained, but it still hysteria. 
I go along there is some odd visuals like switches. But sitting in the cockpit it is adequate up to nice textures. 
I find it pretty similar as the real thing. I do not fly with pilots on. So I won’t comment on shoelaces. I find it to be a good chopper worth 70$ even with my <profanity>ty currency. The systems are well modeled. It fly like a dream. 
what we seen just hours after release was hysteria among masses. No way any of these people had hours enough in it to put any criticism worth paying attention to. 
There were videos and pictures enough to show what you got before purchase. So no one was scammed into buying it, no one

Do you know what Kiowa looks like? It looks like Cyberpunk 2077. It looks really nice in the trailer, but when you buy it and take a closer look, you'll find a lot of problems. If the product was sold outside of early access, then it should come complete. At least the exterior should have the same level of detail as the cockpit.

[LuseKofte]

5 minutes ago, ThorBrasil said:

At least the exterior should have the same level of detail as the cockpit.

I am inside the cockpit flying it. And I do not agree on your exaggerated description of outside looks on it. 
I just find your approach on what you think is a huge problem childish. And you should not buy further new modules until you are sure you would be fully satisfied , I think you will find no sim nor module up to your standards

[ThorBrasil]

17 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I am inside the cockpit flying it. And I do not agree on your exaggerated description of outside looks on it. 
I just find your approach on what you think is a huge problem childish. And you should not buy further new modules until you are sure you would be fully satisfied , I think you will find no sim nor module up to your standards

I bought the Chinook even though I knew it wouldn't come with many things. ED made it clear what will and won't be included at launch. I can't complain because I agreed to buy it in early access. Now, a product that was sold as complete shouldn't have a Minecraft-level 3D model. DCS is no longer in 2015, but in 2024 with high-quality models. You sound like a die-hard fan who blindly defends everything without questioning anything. The point is that it's not worth the $70 for an unfinished product. The point is that I felt cheated. Simple as that.

[Robi Hobby]

I've slept on it for two Nights and have come to the decision to buy the Kiowa after all. We've simply waited too long to give up now. Yes, I also want a nice 3D Model in DCS and not like a Module from 2010. But I'm 55 years old now and People aren't getting any younger. As a Jane's Longbow II Fan, I have to have the Kiowa. So for me it's a case of closing my eyes and getting on with it!  The CEO of PolyChop is from Germany like me, so he'll get my Money.

[ThorBrasil]

11 minutes ago, Robi Hobby said:

I've slept on it for two Nights and have come to the decision to buy the Kiowa after all. We've simply waited too long to give up now. Yes, I also want a nice 3D Model in DCS and not like a Module from 2010. But I'm 55 years old now and People aren't getting any younger. As a Jane's Longbow II Fan, I have to have the Kiowa. So for me it's a case of closing my eyes and getting on with it!  The CEO of PolyChop is from Germany like me, so he'll get my Money.

Despite the problems the Kiowa is a lot of fun to fly. You will not regret. This discussion would be avoided if everything was made clear at launch, but whoever asks me about Kiowa I say the same thing I'm saying to you. In short, it's fun, but it's ugly on the outside. Then the person decides whether to buy or not. Of course, that won't stop you from having a lot of fun with it. I really like flying with him. I hope everything will be resolved in the future. good flights.

[LuseKofte]

Problem is 

21 minutes ago, ThorBrasil said:

I bought the Chinook even though I knew it wouldn't come with many things.

Problem is not only you. But a lot of people make a lot of noise, about irrelevant issues without any consideration on proportion. 
we talk about 14$ 

And that anyone really believed anything come perfect on first release after all these years is to me a misery. The modules systems, which by the way pretty complex is working flawlessly. And Gazelle got a couple of texture updates, what make you think this one will not. I been inside that system several hours and found nothing wrong. I am sure there is but not anything affecting your mission. 
odd visuals on dm, is my biggest complaint so far. They are really bad. But it get shot down with standard visual damage model. 
So far I have no complaints. It is a very good module. I say it is worth the full price. 
Chinook will be released with no multi crew , which is pretty important. The crew chief is a vital part of its manoeuvring. Hope ai crew chief is up for the task. It will also be without vital parts of its system. Witch the Kiowa got complete. What you talk about is insignificant details that I am sure will be improved. Kiowa is complete. Btw. I also bought chinook. I look forward to it. But my guess is the hip will still be my favorite.