Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[Scott-S6]

7 hours ago, freehand said:

So how do you want some one to reply ? who owns one.

They can actually push it until it overheats, which it inevitably will, and report how much it takes to do that.

Trying to claim that it will not / can not over heat is ridiculous. Saying that it hasn't overheated under light usage is a pointless response to questions about heat capacity and dissipation.

It's like when people who've owned something for an hour and haven't taken it apart tell you how good the build quality is - they have no idea.

Edited September 28, 2024 by Scott-S6

[Hammer1-1]

1 minute ago, propeler said:

You do not understand how patent works. It is not possible to patent FFB second time as it was patented once and it is already in public domain.  

I mean the design overall, I know the FFB part cant be done since someone else already holds that patent.

[Scott-S6]

7 hours ago, freehand said:

As for your comment (and if you think that doesn't happen then you're delusional) not sure why your trying to tech people to suck eggs.

 

Because you failed to make it clear which part you were disagreeing with so I responded to both.

[Hiob]

6 hours ago, Aapje said:

Sure, but if no one notices in real use cases, then it is a good enough design, right?

Not when you want to use it to do dogfights with the likes of a Viper and if you actually want the full 9Nm you paid for.

If it is mainly aimed at the folks that fly MSFS (which it probably is, considering the numbers) - they will most likely be fine. Not much Gs there….

[Hiob]

3 hours ago, propeler said:

There is common graph of motor efficiency (form is true for 99% of motors, actual numbers could be different)
 

As in joystick we use motor always in mode closer to the left border of the graph, no matter how efficient motor is on nominal RPMs in stall mode 99% of current goes into heat.

I know, I just wanted to get ahead of the people that expect some kind of wonders from the Moza Motors. You know, because of the fancy marketing pictures they put out. 

[LucShep]

19 hours ago, Aapje said:

You are just repeating rumors that make no sense and that are contradicted by actual facts.

Firstly, this company makes money by licensing their patents. They earn no money if they ask too much for the licenses, and people don't make FFB products. Secondly, we know that for flight sim FFB in the past, and for racing FFB more recently, they've licenses out their patents to relatively cheap products, which means that they can't have asked for that much, or those products couldn't have been this cheap.

Everything points to flight simming losing a lot of popularity until Covid and the new MSFS changed this around & there simply being very little investments into hardware. Some small companies that we all know and love kept innovation, but in a risk-averse and very evolutionary way, which makes sense, given their size and the state of the market at the time. The Rhino showed that the market was there and did a lot of the R&D, so it reduced the risks, while the grown market means that it is a good time to release something new.

I certainly won't disagree with the last paragraph (flight sim genre nose dived after 2002, until Covid).

But those are certainly not just rumours. And what actual facts contradicting?

Immersion was until recently the patent holder for nearly all things FFB, haptic and touch feedback (see here, and here as well).
They're know to be quite strict and have sued quite the number of companies, if you look into that part of their history, including Sony in 2002, Apple in 2016 and Valve in 2023.
When Immersion sued Microsoft in 2002, Microsoft settled by buying 10% of Immersion Corporation (which, I think, is why some of the patents has Microsoft listed as the patent holder).

Of course the license fees exhist and deals can be struck - that's part of their business - but it doesn't mean such deals are frugal.

The opposite is actually considered to be the truth, because even one of the big companies in the console market decided to not license - actually ditched the tech - for one of their most antecipated products (Sony did not feature touch-feedback technology in its pack-in controller for the PlayStation 3).

Logitech had to license their G940 FFB stick when it released in 2009 ("I-FORCE™ Force Feedback Technology Licensed from Immersion Corporation").
But that's a huge multi-million company that could afford to risk it, and went for it (at the wrong time of flight-simming, should be said, and why it flopped).
Thrustmasters, and Saitek (now property of Logitech), didn't go for it, and they certainly had the means and expertise. Perhaps conjuncture - too costly to develop and produce for a small market, and then the Immersion licensing fee on top made those a no go.

How did that went for Brunner, VPForce and FFBeast I don't know, nor do you. But I can't believe (do you?) that a licensing deal with Immersion is so affordable that it wouldn't impact those smaller companies resources, or that it wouldn't impact on the final cost of already expensive boutique products, to sell on a niche market.

Three of the important patents were listed as expired around 2021 (last time I went around this subject, that link was working), so I understand that both the acronym and the “haptic” simulation of software to an engine can be done without paying this company.
Adding to that, the flight sim market has reemerged (exploded is more correct) around that time, and it's still growing. So, I don't think it's wrong or "rumour" to say that it's one less (considerable?) barrier to produce force feedback stick options, that are finally reappearing and probably will multiply in the coming years.

Edited September 29, 2024 by LucShep

[Aapje]

@LucShep

If relatively cheap FFB devices could be sold under the patents, then it's impossible for the patent fees to be the sole reason for the lack of devices. At most it can then be a contributing factor.

Anyway, another video that is mostly useless, but the weight comparison between the Moza and Warthog stick is interesting:

 

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

@LucShep

If relatively cheap FFB devices could be sold under the patents, then it's impossible for the patent fees to be the sole reason for the lack of devices. At most it can then be a contributing factor.

What relatively cheap FFB stick devices were sold under the patents?
AFAIK, only Microsoft (Sidewinder FFB 1 and 2) and Logitech (G940 and Wingman Strike Force 3D FFB) sold "cheap" FFB sticks, both under patent licenses.

Of course it couldn't be the only factor. But, of course, it is a considerable contributing factor.

Edited September 28, 2024 by LucShep

[Aapje]

I'm also talking about FFB steering wheels. They also fell under the patents.

Edited September 28, 2024 by Aapje

[Deezle]

So FWIW, I just did a quick stress test, 2.5 minutes of full force deflection before force started to drop (according to the Moza software), it was another minute before I could actually feel a difference in the force.

[petsild]

Is there a world chart for such a trait?

[Aapje]

6 hours ago, Deezle said:

So FWIW, I just did a quick stress test, 2.5 minutes of full force deflection before force started to drop (according to the Moza software), it was another minute before I could actually feel a difference in the force.

Thanks, that's the first really good info. I assume that you had the base at full power?

[engines]

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything, has anyone figured out trim recentering or trim feedback on the Moza?

[MAXsenna]

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything, has anyone figured out trim recentering or trim feedback on the Moza?

You mean like swapping the axis in DCS?

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[rapid]

New Firmware out MOZA Cockpit 1.0.1.19 (2024.09.26)

[Koziolek]

On 9/28/2024 at 12:04 AM, Hammer1-1 said:

who restarted the force feedback race? 

I would say it was Microsoft and it's 15 million copies of MSFS 2020 sold

[DMouse]

The new Moza Cockpit Software is now Version 1.0.1.19, and the new AB9 firmware version is 1.1.1.27   Hopefully this will fix a few issues I was having!!! BTW flew the Spitfire for the first time with the AB9 and it was awesome!!! 

[DMouse]

Must admit I am now having major issues getting DCS to run at all!!! Currently doing a full clean install, a little extreme but haven't done that in a long time. Not sure if the MOZA Cockpit software or the firmware update is the cause, yet!!

[Hammer1-1]

5 minutes ago, DMouse said:

Must admit I am now having major issues getting DCS to run at all!!! Currently doing a full clean install, a little extreme but haven't done that in a long time. Not sure if the MOZA Cockpit software or the firmware update is the cause, yet!!

well sometimes a fresh start is needed. I recently did just that and the vast majority of my issues just plopped right into the bowl and got flushed like a big turd.

[rapid]

2 hours ago, DMouse said:

Must admit I am now having major issues getting DCS to run at all!!! Currently doing a full clean install, a little extreme but haven't done that in a long time. Not sure if the MOZA Cockpit software or the firmware update is the cause, yet!!

My DCS was working fine yesterday. Had all the Moza updates downloaded fine no problem then downloaded the new DCS update now mine wont start either. will check the logs tomorrow to tired now. Probably an update to fix the issue in the morning if not its debugging time.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Oh dear

[engines]

On 9/29/2024 at 3:09 PM, MAXsenna said:

You mean like swapping the axis in DCS?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

I expected that if I hit the trimmer button on Mi-8 or move the trim hat, the stick's spring center should move accordingly, but I'm not seeing that.

[MAXsenna]

I expected that if I hit the trimmer button on Mi-8 or move the trim hat, the stick's spring center should move accordingly, but I'm not seeing that.

Have you enabled FFB in the general settings? Have you mapped the trim button. The trim hat is not a thing in the Mi-8, unless they have changed something I have missed. It's not like the Hind.

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[Hammer1-1]

2 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Have you enabled FFB in the general settings? Have you mapped the trim button. The trim hat is not a thing in the Mi-8, unless they have changed something I have missed. It's not like the Hind.

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the trim hat in the Mi8 isnt a thing, but nothing stopping anyone from using the trim hat for the trim rotaries....its just easier that way if you dont have 3 encoders to spare.

[MAXsenna]

the trim hat in the Mi8 isnt a thing, but nothing stopping anyone from using the trim hat for the trim rotaries....its just easier that way if you dont have 3 encoders to spare.

Oh, you mean the AP dials for the engineer? The Mi-8 is so easy to trim in any case, I use the hat for the search lights.

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