see roadmap Apache AH-64D Flight Model and further Development Status in 2024?

[BIGNEWY]

2 minutes ago, deloy said:

Maybe if we can get clarification on further development of the FM during early access, as mentioned in the roadmap, it has been delivered.  Further FM updates are mentioned after early access.  So my question is, will we get a fix of excessive torque and hold modes during early access or after? I know it has been mentioned that the team is working on FM and I do respect the hard work being put into, and I am pretty sure that ED will deliver an outstanding product once its finished, it would be great if above question is clarified.

Cheers

As we have mentioned many times the flight model will be tweaked some more based on user feedback and our own SME's who have reported all of the issues mentioned. We just need to be patient and wait for free dev time. 

thank you 

[Wolfy Yiffington]

Hey @Terrifier I was reading over your complaints about the flight model, specifically I wanna reply about the cockpit shake and other aesthetic changes you mentioned. There is a program you can download called DCRealistic that adds cockpit shake and other sound effects to the flight model Im trailing it out today so I can't vouch for how good it is but it might be something you want to look into for that extra layer of added realism

Edit: been playing around with it today and it's pretty damn good it's got added chop sounds, wind effects variable sounds based on speed and other little sounds like clicking and button presses. I used FSRealistic for MSFS 2020 and that was good too I just hadn't given this one a shot yet and didn't want to sell you on it not having tried it myself. Here's the link if you wanna try it yourself https://rkapps.shop/products/dcrealistic

Edited August 30, 2024 by Wolfy Yiffington
Updating after testing the program

[pj]

I've been using DCRealistic along with their SimHaptic software with a buttkicker and highly recommend it for all modules, it definitely adds to the DCS experience!

 

[Havner]

On 8/24/2024 at 11:54 AM, Terrifier said:

I love everything about this model you created except the most important component - The FLIGHT MODEL.

Despite the model's extreme lack of power at the main rotor somehow a completely exaggerated OVER powered tail yaw authority (nose L/R rotation axis) exists.

Thank you for your posts. I don't follow the forums, but I had very similar opinions on the Apache since day one. I love "using" it. I hate flying it. And I love flying all the other choppers in DCS. I can't believe that such a heavy machine is so twitchy in the yaw. And even if for some reason it was inherent characteristic of its model I can't believe they wouldn't fix that with SAS. Right now it's actually a little (very little) easier to fly it with yaw SAS turned off. Which says a lot.

Anyway, I don't have much problem with flying it like as we all I got used to it. But the behaviour of its flight model (comparing to equally heavy choppers like Hip and Hind) amazes me, how unbelievable it is and how unbelievably uncomfortable for the pilot it is. I really do hope that the announced flight model rework will come relatively soon and it will be good. I love this chopper, I want to love it fully. Right now unfortunately I hate flying it.

Another things that is seriously missing is FFB. But it goes to all modules made by ED, so nothing special here. It basically only implements force trim and that's it. We have to use external software that generates some (unfortunately) static effects to have something more. And here goes another point you mentioned. Lack of cockpit shake.

One of the effects I add to the FFB is ETL shake. Unfortunately it doesn't come from telemetry, you need to statically set between what speeds to add it. And when I was doing that for the Hip and Huey I had no issues to see those speeds as the cockpit was shaking like crazy. I couldn't see that in Apache at all. I feel the ETL changing the handling characteristics (obviously) but I have no idea when exactly does it start and when it ends. I'll have a look if maybe the sliders you guys mentioned is fixed now.

Anyway, count me in to the list of people eagerly awaiting Apache flight model revision.

 

EDIT:

Quote

I'll have a look if maybe the sliders you guys mentioned is fixed now.

Nope, no effect whatsoever.

Edited November 2, 2024 by Havner

[deloy]

Hello, wanted to confirm if any possible changes made to FM this update? I have this feeling that tail rotor thrust is not the same, even if its slight change (seems less), and hold modes are slightly better. Any thoughts?

Cheers

[mcfleck]

 The miniscule powerband range threshold from which the collective actually generates effective lift (weapon loaded or weapon unloaded doesn't' matter) before that annoying "motor RPM low" rears its vertical RPM elevation fun stealing Dracula fangs is maddening.
 

You are 100% overtorquing your aircraft my friend. As you might know the amount of lift is proportional to velocity square, meaning when your rotor RPM starts drooping, you will lose lift quickly although you still have a lot of (more than allowed) collective applied.
At the current state of development sure, you can fly for days with 120% TQ applied and increase the collective until your engines are unable to provide enough power to keep the Rotor RPM at the nominal level without any negative permanent effects on your aircraft. I wouldn't recommend trying it out in RL though.
Usually under normal circumstances your gearbox is the first limiting factor. Breaking and overstressing it will result in a crash as you will lose the ability to autorotate and just fall out of the sky. When you apply such an amount of collective that your engines are not able to keep the rotor from drooping, you already have damaged your MGB. This may happen by either not setting the power levers to flight or by applying to much collective for the given circumstances.
Try limiting yourself to 100% TQ max for take off and landings and stay in the green during cruise. Everything above that should only be used in an absolute emergency or as last resort.
Be ahead of the aircraft especially in high gross weight situations and act rather than react. While slowing down for an approach for example do not forget that you will need to apply a substantial amount of collective once your speed starts dropping below 30 KIAS.

[lee1hy]

7080 Soviet helicopter is more stable

ED Apache FM's SME may be accurate, but unpleasant cotntroling game's perspective

[Rogue Trooper]

On 11/3/2024 at 9:15 AM, deloy said:

Hello, wanted to confirm if any possible changes made to FM this update? I have this feeling that tail rotor thrust is not the same, even if its slight change (seems less), and hold modes are slightly better. Any thoughts?

Cheers

The Pedals/tail rotor has always been good for me, but the altitude hold seems to be more capable of holding the altitude in forward flight and in hover. 

14 hours ago, lee1hy said:

7080 Soviet helicopter is more stable

ED Apache FM's SME may be accurate, but unpleasant cotntroling game's perspective

From my gaming perspective, the ED Apache is great fun to fly and attack with.

[Fear-Factor]

Is there a reason why the Apache sometimes fell down like a stone especially on hover or very low speed.
Ive noticed this meanwhile several times but in my opinion in those situations the heli/engine is not in a heavy torqrue or load to behave like that.
At some point the heli loose the flight ability (no vrs) and in some situation i can barely catch that aircraft.
I could understand such behavior when i slow down from higher speed.
Otherwise i dont see a reason why the Apache has such strange ability to fall down.
Its trimmed well and i dont do any abruptly moves which could cause lot of load on the engine. Its just hovering.
I can hold the heli for example several minutes with the same steering inputs and then at one point the engine overtorque with no reason and 8 times form 10 i just crash.
This is annoying.
The Hind for example can handle way bigger stress situations or even very hard manouvers on purpose.

 

[NeedzWD40]

41 minutes ago, Fear-Factor said:

Is there a reason why the Apache sometimes fell down like a stone especially on hover or very low speed.

Without knowing the conditions (temp, altitude, wind, gross weight, etc.) it's hard to speculate. I rarely have problems with it dropping in the described manner unless the conditions are very harsh and I'm heavily loaded.

[Fear-Factor]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb NeedzWD40:

Without knowing the conditions (temp, altitude, wind, gross weight, etc.) it's hard to speculate. I rarely have problems with it dropping in the described manner unless the conditions are very harsh and I'm heavily loaded.

No hard conditions, normal wind, day, Caucasus map for example, 8 laser HF, 2x hydra pods, 3/4 fuel

[Floyd1212]

1 hour ago, Fear-Factor said:

I can hold the heli for example several minutes with the same steering inputs and then at one point the engine overtorque with no reason and 8 times form 10 i just crash.

A track file of this happening would help a lot.

When transitioning from forward flight to a hover, she needs quite a bit of collective to keep your altitude and not settle. But if you are in an established hover, it shouldn’t just drop out of the sky like a rock. 

[NeedzWD40]

4 hours ago, Fear-Factor said:

No hard conditions, normal wind, day, Caucasus map for example, 8 laser HF, 2x hydra pods, 3/4 fuel

Standard day, 15C, calm wind, sea level? M151 rockets or M229? Full or partial gun?

[Fear-Factor]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Floyd1212:

A track file of this happening would help a lot.

When transitioning from forward flight to a hover, she needs quite a bit of collective to keep your altitude and not settle. But if you are in an established hover, it shouldn’t just drop out of the sky like a rock. 

Attm i dont have a track file. I fly in a group on MP server and the sortie time is mostly several hours so i guess the data size is huge...
As ive said.... it happens in very slow flight or in hover sate.

[admiki]

IDK, I have a feeling like it is now harder to arrest descent.

But I do like the challenge of it anyway.

[admiki]

IDK, I have a feeling like it is now harder to arrest descent.

But I do like the challenge of it anyway.

[Floyd1212]

11 hours ago, Fear-Factor said:

Attm i dont have a track file. I fly in a group on MP server and the sortie time is mostly several hours so i guess the data size is huge...

Yeah, huge MP tracks are not very helpful. When you find some time to hop in an Instant Action solo mission and try to reproduce the issue, feel free to post it here. 

[NeedzWD40]

13 hours ago, Fear-Factor said:

As ive said.... it happens in very slow flight or in hover sate.

I did some brief tests with the following conditions:

- 75% fuel, 100% cannon, 8xAGM-114K, 38xM151RC

- Standard day, 15C, no wind, sea level
- Standard day, no wind, ~6,000ft

- Hot day, 32C, ~15kt wind, sea level
- Hot day, 32C, ~15kt wind, ~6,000ft

In all conditions it was possible to hover IGE and OGE, but power limits were thin and limited, with careful handling required to avoid exceeding those limits. A few times I also overtorqued due to rough handling. Hot and high in particular required a lot more meticulous flying and planning to keep it within limits. These conditions tended to result in the aircraft taking a while to settle into an OGE hover, with a decent amount of altitude loss until stabilization (torque was pushed to max limits and engine temp was in the 30min limits). This doesn't seem to be any different from past experiences I've had in the module.

I'll be the first to say that the SCAS and FM are in dire need of work, but when it comes to what to expect from a loaded aircraft, I think folks are being a bit more optimistic than they should be.

Track files attached so you can point and laugh at my sloppy handling.

AH-64D Standard Day SL.trkAH-64D Standard Day 6kft.trkAH-64D Hot Day Wind SL.trkAH-64D Hot Day Wind 6kft.trk

[FlyBaby]

It seems as if we will exit 2024 with no significant update to the flawed FM for the Apache. 

To me, promises of "working on it" and "free dev time" indicate no real priority for this bird. Not to mention the George feature that can't take advantage of the recent FCR updates.

Almost 3 since release, and a wobbly, unstable, fishtailing module that somehow got lost in the developer's pile.

 

[admiki]

3 hours ago, FlyBaby said:

It seems as if we will exit 2024 with no significant update to the flawed FM for the Apache. 

To me, promises of "working on it" and "free dev time" indicate no real priority for this bird. Not to mention the George feature that can't take advantage of the recent FCR updates.

Almost 3 since release, and a wobbly, unstable, fishtailing module that somehow got lost in the developer's pile.

 

Not all, but a lot of people that fly any attack module in DCS are mostly interested in shooting stuff working. TBH, ED did give us almost all that Apache can shoot.

When Apache showed up, I was involved with a big rotary squadron and was performing check flights for new members.

Less than half knew how to set up a route, but a 100% of them knew how to shoot HF or gun.

FM is not that high on priority list.

[Roy35150]

Agreed BUT

For solo players that fly CPG the george AI should be high priority,

Right now the module is unusable as george cannot hold a stable hover which makes the weapons unuseable.

He also drifts around and ends up all over the place.

Sad to see no updates for this as its a gamebreaker for single players.

[admiki]

Go front seat, take control, position as needed and engage hold mode.

Easier to evade too if needed.

[336_TheAngryGamer]

On 8/29/2024 at 3:33 AM, BIGNEWY said:

We just need to be patient and wait for free dev time. 

I have what I think is a legit question. If we need to wait for dev free time, and all this other stuff is currently getting released half done. How long are we thinking. Because it seems to me they are getting buried under an avalanche of unfinished work. So, are we talking the supercarrier time frame? Even slower? I can honestly say, I am thoroughly regretting every single purchase made at the moment. Might just be me but I am seeing zero reason for optimism. 

On 12/6/2024 at 3:29 AM, admiki said:

FM is not that high on priority list.

Maybe if we agree to pay $10 each for the updated FM it will become a priority?

[LuseKofte]

On 12/6/2024 at 10:29 AM, admiki said:

FM is not that high on priority list.

Most I know whom was eager to buy this is normally flying Hornet , Viper and Warthog. I think you are right. I fly it occasionally because close history has given it some pedigree. To be honest for my flying it is ok. 
But I prefer Hind but rather MI 8 since I am chopper pilot focused

[deloy]

4 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Most I know whom was eager to buy this is normally flying Hornet , Viper and Warthog. I think you are right. I fly it occasionally because close history has given it some pedigree. To be honest for my flying it is ok. 
But I prefer Hind but rather MI 8 since I am chopper pilot focused

TBH, the Apache FM is pretty decent and perfectly flyable/enjoyable atm, however we can debate on the fact that it has been almost an year since last update to FM was done, officially, although I do think some small hidden changes have been made. A lot of tinkering is need with saturation and curves to make it good, it does make a big difference, trust me. Barring some issues which are not insignificant, it is flying like a helicopter now and closer to real thing from what I have heard (disclaimer, no real flight time in Apaches !)