see roadmap Apache AH-64D Flight Model and further Development Status in 2024?

[Cyborg71]

42 minutes ago, admiki said:

Nope. If anything, nose down would unload rotor and decrease angle of attack of the blades.

I'll admit that I haven't tested it with Apache, but only helicopter that show RBS in DCS is Mi-24.

IIRC, Apache has some crazy high RBS speed.

Not an irl pilot so I come from a point of ignorance and limited knowledge.

Very confusing. Easy to test though. Fly straight fast level and dive.

It's a rapid onset. 

When you say crazy high RBS do you mean it won't effect flight until speeds are crazy high?

[bradmick]

2 hours ago, Cyborg71 said:

I've completed further tests. I believe your assessment is correct. Its definitely Regurgitating Bird Syndrome. (LoL)

Seriously now though, what I am seeing is the blade stall you describe, occurring as a consequence of nose down commands at speed. The rate of roll seems directly proportional to the vigour applied to nose down pitch.

Not a bug (didn't think it was) just a little shocking.

Cheers

It is a bug, and has previously been reported. This behavior does not exist in the real helicopter.

Edited December 26, 2024 by bradmick

[Cyborg71]

9 hours ago, bradmick said:

It is a bug, and has previously been reported. This behavior does not exist in the real helicopter.

Thank you. Pleasing to know it's not something related to my system personally.

It's also something of a relief to learn the real aircraft does not do this. Rockets would be difficult eh?

Edited December 26, 2024 by Cyborg71
Additional comment

[subroutine]

The Apache is much easier to fly with this recent update, especially during takeoff, landing and coming to a hover during flight (then enable hold modes). I've been able to remove the 10 curve on the pedals and reduce the cyclic curves from 15 to 8.  I have no idea how close it is now to the real aircraft but I feel like I'm flying it now, not fighting with it.

[Rhinozherous]

1 hour ago, subroutine said:

The Apache is much easier to fly with this recent update, especially during takeoff, landing and coming to a hover during flight (then enable hold modes). I've been able to remove the 10 curve on the pedals and reduce the cyclic curves from 15 to 8.  I have no idea how close it is now to the real aircraft but I feel like I'm flying it now, not fighting with it.

Nice to read, have to hop into the apache again to check... ignored it for some time because i did not like its behaviour.

[petsild]

Hi,

I didn't have a problem with the previous FM, when there was a revision there is still no difference in weight.

I've flown over 1k flight hours with the original fm Apache, and it's a pain when I return empty at snail's pace over a distance of 120 km home.

I don't feel the weight of the machine, still poor acceleration and speed limits just don't suit me.

Paradoxically Apache is my favorite machine in dcs.

[TZeer]

Is the excessive sideways slip fixed as well?

[Floyd1212]

1 hour ago, TZeer said:

 

Is the excessive sideways slip fixed as well?

 

No, it is still there. 

[LorenLuke]

3 hours ago, TZeer said:

Is the excessive sideways slip fixed as well?

Still there, but to me (though I don't fly it a whole lot) it feels like it's slightly less than it had been before.

[336_TheAngryGamer]

The revisit to the FM they did does seem to be a great change. I am really enjoying it again. 

[deloy]

16 hours ago, TZeer said:

Is the excessive sideways slip fixed as well?

There is some change, in some flight regimes, but not fully fixed in my opinion

 

[PilotMi8]

22 часа назад, TZeer сказал:

Is the excessive sideways slip fixed as well?

no, we haven't touched this yet, because a very deep reworking of the rotor model is required. This will be done in the future.
We only did what was indicated in the changelog, and nothing more))

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 12/29/2024 at 1:35 PM, PilotMi8 said:

we haven't touched this yet, because a very deep reworking of the rotor model is required. This will be done in the future.

Will this rework be part of the DCS core, and thus affect all other helicopters as well?

[[DE] T-Bone]

It's great that there have been noticeable improvements in some areas. In particular, the behavior during taxiing has improved significantly, and the overall behavior during flight is also more pleasant.

However, there are still critical points, particularly with regard to the flight model (FM). This currently conveys too much of an arcade-like impression. The transitions between inputs and reactions are too fast and lack the feeling of mass and inertia. For example:

• Flight behavior in turns: When initiating a turn, the aircraft descends immediately instead of gradually, which impairs the physical credibility.
• Pitch reaction: When pulling the pitch, the variometer reacts immediately and without delay, which seems unrealistic.
• Hover behavior: The control inputs from the Cyclic are implemented directly without delay instead of showing a certain inertia.

Overall, the Apache does not feel like a heavy helicopter, but rather like an element from other, less simulation-oriented games.

Edited December 30, 2024 by [DE] T-Bone

[deloy]

4 hours ago, [DE] T-Bone said:

It's great that there have been noticeable improvements in some areas. In particular, the behavior during taxiing has improved significantly, and the overall behavior during flight is also more pleasant.

However, there are still critical points, particularly with regard to the flight model (FM). This currently conveys too much of an arcade-like impression. The transitions between inputs and reactions are too fast and lack the feeling of mass and inertia. For example:

• Flight behavior in turns: When initiating a turn, the aircraft descends immediately instead of gradually, which impairs the physical credibility.
• Pitch reaction: When pulling the pitch, the variometer reacts immediately and without delay, which seems unrealistic.
• Hover behavior: The control inputs from the Cyclic are implemented directly without delay instead of showing a certain inertia.

Overall, the Apache does not feel like a heavy helicopter, but rather like an element from other, less simulation-oriented games.

In case of Apache , quick control response is due the CAS working behind the scenes to give “power steering response “ . This has been quoted by guys who flew the real thing . The inertia should be very evident when SCAS is switched off. However in case of our Apache , currently there is no difference in handling when in pure CAS (FT interrupted) vs when whole SCAS is switched off. 

[[DE] T-Bone]

35 minutes ago, deloy said:

In case of Apache , quick control response is due the CAS working behind the scenes to give “power steering response “ . This has been quoted by guys who flew the real thing . The inertia should be very evident when SCAS is switched off. However in case of our Apache , currently there is no difference in handling when in pure CAS (FT interrupted) vs when whole SCAS is switched off. 

I completely agree with you on this point: The system should enable an appropriate response and respond precisely to control impulses.

However, I am of the opinion that the CAS should not work as linearly as it is currently represented in DCS. Especially in relation to the high weight of the aircraft, the movement does not appear to be represented correctly. This is particularly noticeable in hovering flight, where the exaggerated reaction of the system is unrealistically pronounced and the actual inertia of a heavy mass is not sufficiently simulated.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

58 minutes ago, [DE] T-Bone said:

the actual inertia of a heavy mass is not sufficiently simulated

Indeed: the OH-58 feels so much more stable to fly and care-free to control while it is 4x lighter 
And the OH-58 FM is quoted by Casmo as being (one of) the best helo FMs in DCS.

[PilotMi8]

8 часов назад, Raven (Elysian Angel) сказал:

Will this rework be part of the DCS core, and thus affect all other helicopters as well?

No, the helicopter flight model is not part of the DCS core. Each DCS helicopter has its own flight model.

[Raptor9]

8 hours ago, [DE] T-Bone said:

• Flight behavior in turns: When initiating a turn, the aircraft descends immediately instead of gradually, which impairs the physical credibility.
• Pitch reaction: When pulling the pitch, the variometer reacts immediately and without delay, which seems unrealistic.
• Hover behavior: The control inputs from the Cyclic are implemented directly without delay instead of showing a certain inertia.

I am not sure what you mean about the first point, but if you offset the lift vector away from the vertical without a corresponding collective increase or aft cyclic input (if in forward flight), the aircraft will descend.

I assume by "variometer" you are referring to the Vertical Speed Indicator (VSI). The AH-64D VSI incorporates inertial velocities from the EGI along with static air sensors to provide instantaneous vertical speed indication. There should not be a delay with the VSI as you claim.

As stated above, the CAS provides instantaneous control inputs to mitigate the mechanical play in the flight control linkages and bellcranks, so that the AH-64D responds immediately. It also provides proportional response at low speeds to produce the same angular rates across all longitudinal airspeeds. The AH-64 was designed for maneuvering at low speed among obstacles at low altitudes, which is why the aircraft is as responsive as it is. If the FMC channels are disabled, there should indeed be some delay and "sloppiness" in the control response, especially at low speeds; but when the FMC channels are enabled, the CAS provides a "power steering" effect.

As PilotMi8 stated, there is a new rotor model rework in progress, but some of your claims or assumptions seem to be based on experiences with other helicopters rather than the AH-64D.

[bradmick]

16 hours ago, [DE] T-Bone said:

I completely agree with you on this point: The system should enable an appropriate response and respond precisely to control impulses.

However, I am of the opinion that the CAS should not work as linearly as it is currently represented in DCS. Especially in relation to the high weight of the aircraft, the movement does not appear to be represented correctly. This is particularly noticeable in hovering flight, where the exaggerated reaction of the system is unrealistically pronounced and the actual inertia of a heavy mass is not sufficiently simulated.

 Based on what? The helicopter *is* that responsive, it was designed to be that way. You’re approaching this from the standpoint of a purely analog point of view, the Apache incorporated a tone of digital systems to overcome the limitations of the previous generation attack helicopter, the Cobra. Weight isn’t as critical as you think to handling. Both the Lakota and Apache flew the same, the one was significantly lighter. Modern flight control systems are designed to be responsive and make up for all of the mechanical delays that exist in the flight control system.

[[DE] T-Bone]

14 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

I am not sure what you mean about the first point, but if you offset the lift vector away from the vertical without a corresponding collective increase or aft cyclic input (if in forward flight), the aircraft will descend.

I assume by "variometer" you are referring to the Vertical Speed Indicator (VSI). The AH-64D VSI incorporates inertial velocities from the EGI along with static air sensors to provide instantaneous vertical speed indication. There should not be a delay with the VSI as you claim.

As stated above, the CAS provides instantaneous control inputs to mitigate the mechanical play in the flight control linkages and bellcranks, so that the AH-64D responds immediately. It also provides proportional response at low speeds to produce the same angular rates across all longitudinal airspeeds. The AH-64 was designed for maneuvering at low speed among obstacles at low altitudes, which is why the aircraft is as responsive as it is. If the FMC channels are disabled, there should indeed be some delay and "sloppiness" in the control response, especially at low speeds; but when the FMC channels are enabled, the CAS provides a "power steering" effect.

As PilotMi8 stated, there is a new rotor model rework in progress, but some of your claims or assumptions seem to be based on experiences with other helicopters rather than the AH-64D.

 

1 hour ago, bradmick said:

 Based on what? The helicopter *is* that responsive, it was designed to be that way. You’re approaching this from the standpoint of a purely analog point of view, the Apache incorporated a tone of digital systems to overcome the limitations of the previous generation attack helicopter, the Cobra. Weight isn’t as critical as you think to handling. Both the Lakota and Apache flew the same, the one was significantly lighter. Modern flight control systems are designed to be responsive and make up for all of the mechanical delays that exist in the flight control system.

Then it is all the more impressive what Apache's systems are capable of in terms of performance. If you both confirm this as you have described it, then I will accept it and deal with it accordingly.

As I mentioned above, some positive improvements are noticeable. However, my impression is still based on a personal, summarized assessment based on experience in DCS, other professional simulators and input from pilots in your field. If the flight model is indeed as you have described, this is sufficient clarification for me.

Thank you very much for your answers and detailed explanations - I really appreciate it.

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, [DE] T-Bone said:

If the flight model is indeed as you have described, this is sufficient clarification for me.

Just to be clear to prevent any misinterpretation or misunderstanding in anything that was said, we were only addressing the specific items you had stated in an earlier post. We weren't stating the flight model as a whole is perfect.

There are indeed inaccuracies with the flight model and some aspects of the SCAS behavior, which are being addressed internally. It just takes time. This is something I've been intent on being as transparent and open about from the beginning so that when I say something is representative of the real AH-64D's flight behavior or handling, you can be sure I'm not blowing smoke. However, on occasion, this requires that we push back on some user claims if they are not accurate to prevent misunderstanding amongst the community.

[Hoirtel]

Just flown the apache after a long break. I really like the changes to the FM! The module feels great and although I have always enjoyed it, there were times were it just felt too difficult and unsteady. The trim also seems to be much easier to use now. I will be back flying this module a lot more. Thanks.

[TZeer]

Did some testing now, and I must say I'm very happy with the improvements.

Feels much more controlled on the yaw. Very noticable while taxing. I have a Virpil pedal with a dampener-mod, and even with that setup the tail had a tendency to violently kick out when trying to do a turn while taxing. Now I'm able to do a much more controlled turn.

I also noticed the constant oscillating behavior of the yaw is gone while flying straight.

And the much more controlled behaviour of the helicopter when going into hover from forward flight. Before the change there was like a rug getting pulled out beneath you when getting below a certain speed, now it's actually somewhat predictable.

 

Great work @Raptor9 and the rest of the team. Looking forward to the next improvements in the FM

 

[Rhinozherous]

The new FM is awesome! I always liked the Apache for its systems and weapons, but now I also like to fly it